jamest wrote:How do you hard-wire 'reciprocity' into the 'selfish gene'? Make your fucking minds up!
Learn stuff: stuff good.
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jamest wrote:How do you hard-wire 'reciprocity' into the 'selfish gene'? Make your fucking minds up!
Thommo wrote:jamest wrote:How do you hard-wire 'reciprocity' into the 'selfish gene'? Make your fucking minds up!
Genes "succeed" by making the number of copies of themself increase. The same genes exist in different individual people, many copies in each of their cells and in every cell of relatives who inherited the same gene.
In most multicellular organisms the "selfish" gene (which is just a book title and not even the first choice of the author) can proliferate only by the success of gamete cells in the same individual or another individual who also has the gene.
Any reciprocity which aids one or both such individuals in reproducing thus accomodates this "selfishness". So if being seen as honest by your fellow humans helps you earn a living, and thus survive and potentially have a family it serves the "selfishness" of your genes. If being a loving parent helps your offspring to have a better chance of survival, adulthood and finding a partner then so too does this serve your "selfish" genes.
In organisms like ants most individuals are sterile, but they work for the good of the colony, which consists of closely related individuals who share most genes. So the genes succeed even where individuals fail.
jamest wrote:Thommo wrote:jamest wrote:The whole theory of evolution, up until humanity, is that it was driven by the selfish gene. Then, now, to account for the short term humanity has been around, even though most of us are still utterly selfish bastards, we up carts and change the theory for those precious souls WHO DO EXIST who are disgusted by selfishness.
That's just totally wrong.
It cannot be, for I am, and I cannot be the only one.
jamest wrote:
Maybe you should read the book yourself, as your post here implies that you have no fuckin' clue.
jamest wrote:
Maybe you should read the book yourself, as your post here implies that you have no fuckin' clue.
What is the selfish gene? It is not just one single physical bit of DNA. Just as in the primeval soup, it is all replicas of a particular bit of DNA, distributed throughout the world. If we allow ourselves the licence of talking about genes as if they had conscious aims, always reassuring ourselves that we could translate our sloppy language back into respectable terms if we wanted to, we can ask the question, what is a single selfish gene trying to do? It is trying to get more numerous in the gene pool. Basically it does this by helping to program the bodies in which it finds itself to survive and tr reproduce. But now we are emphasizing that ‘it’ is a distributed agency, existing in many different individuals at once. The key point of this chapter is that a gene might be able to assist replicas of itself that are sitting in other bodies. If so, this would appear as individual altruism but it would be brought about by gene selfishness.
jamest wrote:Don't mention Thommo again, please.
jamest wrote:
Maybe you should read the book yourself, as your post here implies that you have no fuckin' clue.
unique??The unique human capacity for extensive cooperation through reciprocity with non-relatives i
Macdoc wrote:unique??The unique human capacity for extensive cooperation through reciprocity with non-relatives i
hardly unique...
there are lots of examples even cross species -
…….
Mutualism plays a key part in ecology. For example, mutualistic interactions are vital for terrestrial ecosystem function as more than 48% of land plants rely on mycorrhizal relationships with fungi to provide them with inorganic compounds and trace elements. As another example, the estimate of tropical forest trees with seed dispersal mutualisms with animals ranges from 70–90%. In addition, mutualism is thought to have driven the evolution of much of the biological diversity we see, such as flower forms (important for pollination mutualisms) and co-evolution between groups of species.[2] However, mutualism has historically received less attention than other interactions such as predation and parasitism.
That article suggests that the range of human methods of detecting and punishing cheaters is a crucial difference between humans and non-human animals, this is perhaps relevant to morality?Although cooperation is a widespread phenomenon in nature, human cooperation exceeds that of all other species with regard to the scale and range of cooperative activities.
The fledglings of some bird species such as Greater Flamingos, Royal and Sandwich Terns, eiders, ostriches, and a number of penguins separate from their parents and form a group, or "creche." Whether parents continue to feed their own chicks, or the chicks feed themselves, supervision of the creche (when it occurs) is usually delegated to a small number of guardians. The guardians, of course, are related to only a small number of the young in the group. It is curious that "altruistic" guarding of unrelated young, presumably a dangerous, tiring responsibility, has evolved. Upon closer scrutiny, however, the behavior is not as altruistic as it appears.
Chick-creching generally occurs among birds that breed in large, loose colonies and whose eggs all hatch at about the same time. The day-care system permits a fledgling to lose itself in a crowd and reduce its risk of predation (dilution principle). In the case of young remaining dependent on their parents for food, creching frees the adults to spend more time foraging. Evolutionary theory suggests that creching is likely to develop when the young reared in a gang have a better chance of surviving than those reared alone, so that the birds practicing creche formation contribute more of their genes to the next generation than those that do not form creches.
It is not so easy, however, to predict which adults will adopt guarding behavior. In some species, this role is taken by nonbreeding adults (occasionally "aunts," or adults whose broods were lost, etc.), but in others, such as African ostriches, dominant pairs compete for the opportunity to gather the young of others to their group. Such herding of young is reminiscent of an African catfish that gathers the offspring of cichlid fishes into a school of its own young. The little cichlids are kept to the outside, where they (rather than the young of the catfish) are the first to be discovered by predators. Data are needed on relative position and mortality of adopted offspring in relation to the chicks most closely related to the adults guarding the creche to determine whether such supervision is truly altruistic.
That article suggests that the range of human methods of detecting and punishing cheaters is a crucial difference between humans and non-human animals, this is perhaps relevant to morality?
zoon wrote:Morality’s an evolved feature of our species, all functioning human societies have a working moral system, and non-human animals only have precursors. Even pre-verbal human babies, unlike any non-human animal, will dislike a puppet which has harmed another puppet for no good reason (e.g. a 2007 article by Paul Bloom and others: “Social evaluation by preverbal infants” here. By contrast, a similar 2018 experiment here, with a self-explanatory title, showed that “Bonobos Prefer Individuals that Hinder Others over Those that Help”).
Yes, I especially like the studies done on human infants, and on other animals. One human infant study that stuck out for me, which you may know of, was one which suggested that human infants (as young as 9 months) preferred (75% preference) 'punishing' puppets to 'helping' puppets when either (punishing or helping) was done to another puppet that was 'not like me'. This suggests that negative human moral judgements are innately biased against 'others not like me'. Which is a bit chilling:
Spearthrower wrote:Yes, I especially like the studies done on human infants, and on other animals. One human infant study that stuck out for me, which you may know of, was one which suggested that human infants (as young as 9 months) preferred (75% preference) 'punishing' puppets to 'helping' puppets when either (punishing or helping) was done to another puppet that was 'not like me'. This suggests that negative human moral judgements are innately biased against 'others not like me'. Which is a bit chilling:
Basically, it's Punch and Judy.
Adults tend to like individuals who are similar to them, and a growing body of recent research suggests that even infants and young children prefer individuals who share their attributes or personal tastes over those who do not.
Spearthrower wrote:Yes, I especially like the studies done on human infants, and on other animals. One human infant study that stuck out for me, which you may know of, was one which suggested that human infants (as young as 9 months) preferred (75% preference) 'punishing' puppets to 'helping' puppets when either (punishing or helping) was done to another puppet that was 'not like me'. This suggests that negative human moral judgements are innately biased against 'others not like me'. Which is a bit chilling:
Basically, it's Punch and Judy.
Macdoc wrote:That article suggests that the range of human methods of detecting and punishing cheaters is a crucial difference between humans and non-human animals, this is perhaps relevant to morality?
Bit of trying for "in dog's image"?
Nah ...even fish detect cheaters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleaner_fish
and don't get me started on corvid duplicity or cooperation.
archibald wrote:zoon wrote:Morality’s an evolved feature of our species, all functioning human societies have a working moral system, and non-human animals only have precursors. Even pre-verbal human babies, unlike any non-human animal, will dislike a puppet which has harmed another puppet for no good reason (e.g. a 2007 article by Paul Bloom and others: “Social evaluation by preverbal infants” here. By contrast, a similar 2018 experiment here, with a self-explanatory title, showed that “Bonobos Prefer Individuals that Hinder Others over Those that Help”).
Yes, I especially like the studies done on human infants, and on other animals. One human infant study that stuck out for me, which you may know of, was one which suggested that human infants (as young as 9 months) preferred (75% preference) 'punishing' puppets to 'helping' puppets when either (punishing or helping) was done to another puppet that was 'not like me'. This suggests that negative human moral judgements are innately biased against 'others not like me'. By 14 months it was a 98% preference.
Which is a bit chilling:
Not like me = bad: Infants prefer those who harm dissimilar others
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4374623/
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More generally, I agree with nearly everything you say, but I have been thinking.
It was put to me that there is a fundamental 'rule' which is independent of human brains and applies to all living things, and it is either the basis for morality or, in some ways (I might be tempted to argue) it is morality itself.
The rule is, "existence = good".
It would explain, for example why certain things, for all living things, are 'done instead of other things', preferred or not preferred, and why actions have “to-be-doneness” or "not-to-be-doneness’ ‘built into them’, that either have 'magnetic attraction' or 'repulsion' (and often disgust, which has been shown, including by neuroscience, to be closely related to many negative moral judgements, and also shown to be related to disease avoidance). In our particular case, these could be dispositions we are born with and/or things that could be affected by environment and learning, or a mixture of both.
None of which need to be consciously-experienced by an organism, of course, let alone deliberated over as we do. In some ways, all the deliberation and reasoning may be just window dressing (or in some cases post-hoc rationalisation, given that there is evidence that we make instinctive moral decisions in a fifth of a second and possibly even non-consciously, that first impressions last, and that as per the title of an article I read recently, 'we don't change our minds as often as we think we do').
The concept of entities having very basic 'interests' (starting with 'continued existence' as priority number 1) that might affect, at the most basic level, genes, then at a 'me' level, then at a 'those I am most like (genetically or in terms of relationships)' level, then in the end at a 'my species' level, would explain certain anomalies in moral judgements such as approving of harmful acts done to 'those not like me' and the biases that lead us to judge ourselves more moral than others even if we do the same things as them.
You can see from the above that I am extending morality beyond humans, not only a short distance (because I believe there are behaviours in some other animals which imo deserve to be called more than mere precursors to morality) but ultimately a very long distance, because I am suggesting that we can and/or should decouple morality from propositional attitudes about it.
I might even go so far as to say either that morality (for living things) is biological, or at least that biology is the basis for morality.
So now, at least as far as living things go, I'm saying that morality is consequentialist, pragmatic, relative and biological.
I'm temporarily holding off saying it applies to non-living things.....but not that far off.
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