The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

Homeopathy, Chiropractic and similar "alternative" views

Discussions on astrology, homeopathy and superstition etc.

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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

#1821  Postby Shrunk » Feb 29, 2012 11:21 am

Paul wrote:
Nancy (on twitter, 3 days ago) wrote:A running opinion poll http://t.co/VDZNPbW4 is showing that homeopathy is the choice of >93% of people. Let people choose and decide. VOTE


That would have been when much fewer than 100 votes had been cast. :rofl:


Just another example of how homeopaths have no idea how to critically appraise evidence. Even if that result had stood, how would that have meant anything?
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

#1822  Postby Darkchilde » Feb 29, 2012 11:30 am

Shrunk wrote:
Paul wrote:
Nancy (on twitter, 3 days ago) wrote:A running opinion poll http://t.co/VDZNPbW4 is showing that homeopathy is the choice of >93% of people. Let people choose and decide. VOTE


That would have been when much fewer than 100 votes had been cast. :rofl:


Just another example of how homeopaths have no idea how to critically appraise evidence. Even if that result had stood, how would that have meant anything?


But... now the votes have been diluted and so the poll is stronger than ever! At that time, the poll did not have the appropriate dilution.

:rofl:
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

#1823  Postby Paul G » Mar 03, 2012 10:22 pm

We may have some newcomers.

http://www.facebook.com/YeoValley
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

#1824  Postby campermon » Mar 04, 2012 11:55 am

Paul G wrote:We may have some newcomers.

http://www.facebook.com/YeoValley


Aye! some comedy gold from that thread;

Oliver Dowding wrote: ‎@ Paul, G & H. I'm sure there are some companies in the homoeopathic sector making some profits. Thank goodness. All businesses need to do that survive. However, the profits being made in the pharmaceutical world are phenomenal. Take a look at the share prices of pharmaceutical companies, far outperforming most from all the other sectors. But only possible if investors see extraordinary returns being made by the company that inspires them to invest in it. These companies can even afford £billions that they have to pay in fines for various nefarious practices. Not forgetting, of course, that although its "they" who are paying, as the taxpayers who fund all of their activity through such as the NHS, it's actually us citizens who are paying.

Science hasn't proven homoeopathy doesn't work. It simply tried to use RCT modelling to debunk it and protect its own profitable business. Try as you might, RCT modelling isn't the way to judge homoeopathy. A few scientists" understand about homoeopathy, and that its efficacious, even if they are not completely sure of the modus operandi. But because you don't, and because you want it axed, you are happy to insist on that version of science being the only possible way things can be assessed.

Why don't you go down to the Bristol homoeopathic hospital and discuss with the doctors there? Ask them about the basket cases that they receive from the NHS, where all the conventional options have failed. I think the record with 15 consultants who tried and failed, for which the hospital produced and 80% improvement in very short time. Why don't you go to India and meet the hundreds of thousands of practising homoeopaths, both in the animal and human sphere, and discuss with them what they're doing. Remember, you and all your fellow cynical snipers, there are those who investigate and do, and discover that things work better or differently than those with closed preconceived opinions think, and then get on and use their new knowledge. These people have often come to understand this after a very conventional medical education, and years in practice. The often then use both forms of medical knowledge and treatment, not seeing either as exclusive.
There are others, like yourselves, who cling to the belief that because they/you say it doesn't work that therefore it cannot work, and the rest of us jolly well better believe it, because you say so. They like to cite, as you do, research undertaken by people who have the same approach and belief.

I'm surprised you haven't bothered to mention the magician Randi. Somebody else who doesn't understand how it works, and when presented with research that is going to debunk his long-held views, and claim his $1m prize, finds all kinds of ways to duck and dive and avoid being unmasked, and having to pay.

I suggest you crawl back where you came from, and leave the veterinary surgeons, herd managers and animal carers who have learnt the successful way to use homoeopathy, and delivered kind and caring support for their livestock, to get on with their work. The results that these people are achieving, here, and all around the world, are the reasons why you're wrong when you say that "science has proven that homoeopathy doesn't work." There are many, either with a financial or dogmatic reason, who fear finding out the reality what those of us who are practising successfully with homoeopathy know to be the case. That's whether or not your distorted and narrow version of science can prove to your satisfaction how and if it works. Reality can sometimes be uncomfortable, and I appreciate that. I'm sorry it's hurting you.

Luckily, for those of us using homoeopathy, it is incredibly comforting to know that is a very effective way that we can treat disease. One which doesn't come with a plethora of side-effects or risks. It's also one that doesn't compromise the use of antibiotics in the human medical world. And, much more.
Scarlett and Ironclad wrote:Campermon,...a middle aged, middle class, Guardian reading, dad of four, knackered hippy, woolly jumper wearing wino and science teacher.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

#1825  Postby Dudely » Mar 05, 2012 8:44 pm

It never fails to surprise me just how difficult it is for people to realize that sometimes things appear to work because random chance generates enough successes to justify it. When you couple that with the low risk involved (and scams like homeopathy ALWAYS have practically nonexistent risk), you get a situation where hundreds of people jump up and down in order to try and make it rain, or travel far and wide to meet a person who claims to be able to communicate with their dead relative, or buy a lottery ticket, or treat their ailments with energy-imprinted sugar pills.
This is what hydrogen atoms do given 15 billion years of evolution- Carl Sagan

Ignorance is slavery- Miles Davis
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

#1826  Postby Moridin » Jun 27, 2012 7:39 pm

Dudely wrote:It never fails to surprise me just how difficult it is for people to realize that sometimes things appear to work because random chance generates enough successes to justify it.


Don't forget the placebo effect, regression to the mean and various well-known mechanisms from social psychology etc. The situation is much more complicated than a Skinnerian pigeon, so I think you are not quite doing justice to the multifactorial origin and maintenance of a belief in quack 'medicine'.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

#1827  Postby Lou » Jul 28, 2012 2:47 pm

This thread has had me in stitches from beginning to end. Which, presumably, could be cured by a 60C dilution of powdered knitwear. If I put on my Stooges albums and leap about after treatment, will it increase efficacy?
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

#1828  Postby campermon » Jul 28, 2012 2:52 pm

Lou wrote:This thread has had me in stitches from beginning to end. Which, presumably, could be cured by a 60C dilution of powdered knitwear. If I put on my Stooges albums and leap about after treatment, will it increase efficacy?


Maybe not the Stooges, but a bit of Zeppelin and some head banging will definitely work.

:mrgreen:
Scarlett and Ironclad wrote:Campermon,...a middle aged, middle class, Guardian reading, dad of four, knackered hippy, woolly jumper wearing wino and science teacher.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

#1829  Postby jaydot » May 27, 2013 9:54 pm

i just had a homeopathic joint. that's a cigarette with no weed in it because i've run out. i'm getting nothing off it, not even placebo. i'd like an explanation since i put some baccy in the empty pot pot and that should count for a dilution.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

#1830  Postby coconspirator » Dec 18, 2014 2:05 am

As a critical care Paramedic and then critical care nurse I have seen many unnecessary deaths. Many have been due to ineffective treatment. I find it very deflating in the number of patients who aren’t given the harsh truth. Doctor’s do know eating correctly, and exercise are the keys to good health, as we all do. The problem is when patients come in with diabetes, heart failure, kidney failure, skin infections and sepsis, doctors don’t say “put down the hamburger and pick up an apple or you will die”. Instead they give a medication that will put a Band-Aid on a gushing wound. I see an overwhelming amount of patients whose health is poor, because of their own life choices. The doctors are responsible for our health, but so are we. I believe if you have a proper diet and exercise you can cure and eradicate most diseases. There are those that cannot be cured that way ie. AIDS, Hepatitis C, and congenital birth defects and diseases. We can build up our immunity but our environment also breaks it down. Education at a very young age in schools is a must. I don’t know when any or most of us have used our algebra in everyday life, yet it is crammed into us in school as well as several other useless school subjects. Many did not like gym class growing up, but that was important to our health education, as eating right should be as well.

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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

#1831  Postby Templeton » Dec 19, 2014 3:43 am

coconspirator wrote:As a critical care Paramedic and then critical care nurse I have seen many unnecessary deaths. Many have been due to ineffective treatment. I find it very deflating in the number of patients who aren’t given the harsh truth. Doctor’s do know eating correctly, and exercise are the keys to good health, as we all do. The problem is when patients come in with diabetes, heart failure, kidney failure, skin infections and sepsis, doctors don’t say “put down the hamburger and pick up an apple or you will die”. Instead they give a medication that will put a Band-Aid on a gushing wound. I see an overwhelming amount of patients whose health is poor, because of their own life choices. The doctors are responsible for our health, but so are we. I believe if you have a proper diet and exercise you can cure and eradicate most diseases. There are those that cannot be cured that way ie. AIDS, Hepatitis C, and congenital birth defects and diseases. We can build up our immunity but our environment also breaks it down. Education at a very young age in schools is a must. I don’t know when any or most of us have used our algebra in everyday life, yet it is crammed into us in school as well as several other useless school subjects. Many did not like gym class growing up, but that was important to our health education, as eating right should be as well.

Ian G. BCS RN


Well put - Although I would say that doctors aren't responsible for our health. Doctors are not required to be responsible or to act responsibly towards a patient's health. This is evidenced by the very example you have given above.
Society has perpetuated a myth that Doctors are health providers...Sickness care, perhaps, but health and wellness...not so much... Good post con..
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

#1832  Postby Shrunk » Dec 19, 2014 12:01 pm

Yes, not a bad post. But I don't see what it has to do with this thread.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

#1833  Postby Goldenmane » Dec 19, 2014 12:43 pm

I don't see how it's a good post, either.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

#1834  Postby Weaver » Dec 19, 2014 1:04 pm

coconspirator wrote:As a critical care Paramedic and then critical care nurse I have seen many unnecessary deaths. Many have been due to ineffective treatment. I find it very deflating in the number of patients who aren’t given the harsh truth. Doctor’s do know eating correctly, and exercise are the keys to good health, as we all do. The problem is when patients come in with diabetes, heart failure, kidney failure, skin infections and sepsis, doctors don’t say “put down the hamburger and pick up an apple or you will die”. Instead they give a medication that will put a Band-Aid on a gushing wound. I see an overwhelming amount of patients whose health is poor, because of their own life choices. The doctors are responsible for our health, but so are we. I believe if you have a proper diet and exercise you can cure and eradicate most diseases. There are those that cannot be cured that way ie. AIDS, Hepatitis C, and congenital birth defects and diseases. We can build up our immunity but our environment also breaks it down. Education at a very young age in schools is a must. I don’t know when any or most of us have used our algebra in everyday life, yet it is crammed into us in school as well as several other useless school subjects. Many did not like gym class growing up, but that was important to our health education, as eating right should be as well.

Ian G. BCS RN

The claim that physicians do not discuss proper diet and nutrition with their patients suffering obesity, diabetes, CHF, renal failure, etc is simply not accurate. Such discussions are part and parcel of care from the primary level up to the acute care specialist.

I am also an EMT and a nurse. I see that nutritional specialists come to visit such patients on a nearly daily basis when hospitalized. I know my primary care physicians always discuss diet and nutrition with me on every visit.

Algebra is far, far from useless - if you do not use it daily as a nurse, it is only because of the spread of computers to do your math for you. Nursing med calculations are entirely algebra.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

#1835  Postby Shrunk » Dec 19, 2014 2:01 pm

Goldenmane wrote:I don't see how it's a good post, either.


No. I gave it the benefit of the doubt by saying "not bad". But I'm not sure what the point is. Proper nutritiion and exercise are good for you? Stop the presses!

Of course, the point could be to simply disparage "mainstream medicine" and thereby, thru implication, support homeopathy and other forms of "alternative medicine" quackery. But, like I said, benefit of the doubt.

Weaver wrote:The claim that physicians do not discuss proper diet and nutrition with their patients suffering obesity, diabetes, CHF, renal failure, etc is simply not accurate. Such discussions are part and parcel of care from the primary level up to the acute care specialist.

I am also an EMT and a nurse. I see that nutritional specialists come to visit such patients on a nearly daily basis when hospitalized. I know my primary care physicians always discuss diet and nutrition with me on every visit.


Similarly, at the psychiatric hospital at which I work, we've set up an entire clinic devoted to addressing dietary and other issues increasing risk of diabetes and obesity, since these conditions have proven to be so prevalent in our patients.
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