The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Split

Homeopathy, Chiropractic and similar "alternative" views

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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#801  Postby RPizzle » Jun 20, 2010 9:13 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:

Homeopathy medicine for various disease conditions http://www.trusthomeopathy.org/research ... dence.html


Looking at the list of conditions in which homeopathy treats (from the site provided):

Dry mouth

HIV infection

While I think I can work out the mechanism in which homeopathy fixes the first condition, could I get an explanation on the mechanism for the second one?
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#802  Postby Shrunk » Jun 20, 2010 9:16 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Ubjon wrote:Those that are interested in the effectiveness of homoepathy might want to review the Cochrane Institutes website as they have looked in to this

Homeopathy for attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder or hyperkinetic disorder - http://www.mrw.interscience.wiley.com/c ... frame.html

Homeopathy for chronic asthma - http://www.mrw.interscience.wiley.com/c ... frame.html

Homeopathy for dementia - http://www.mrw.interscience.wiley.com/c ... frame.html

Homoeopathy for induction of labour - http://www.mrw.interscience.wiley.com/c ... frame.html

Homeopathic medicines for adverse effects of cancer treatments - http://www.mrw.interscience.wiley.com/c ... frame.html

Complementary and miscellaneous interventions for nocturnal enuresis in children - http://www.mrw.interscience.wiley.com/c ... frame.html

The long and short of it seems that current clinical trials on homoepathy have been of poor quality and we need to the results of correctly carried out clinical trials before drawing any conclusions - http://www.mrw.interscience.wiley.com/c ... frame.html


Homeopathy medicine for various disease conditions http://www.trusthomeopathy.org/research ... dence.html


And there you have it: On one side, peer-reviewed evidence by an organization that uses the most stringent and reliable criteria possible. On the other, a website from a quack organization that just makes up claims without even knowing the meaning of the word "evidence".
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#803  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 20, 2010 9:18 pm

Shrunk wrote: It would have been more accurate to say that, at present, we have no means of telling the difference. If homeopaths are some day able to devise a reliable method of demonstrating that their treatments are more effective than placebo, or theists are able to devise a method to demonstrate that god exists, then their claims will be taken seriously. Until then, they should be dismissed just as a people who believe in fairies are dismissed.



I repeat. Many things in this world cannot be explained by 'science' and that is the beauty of the wonder of life. You can either live in the mainstream and wait until its widely accepted, then you believe it, or you can look back thousands of years and believe what your forefathers believed before 'science' came along.
Evidence-based scientific homeopathy is a modern nano-medicine like Conventional Allopathic Medicine (CAM)
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#804  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 20, 2010 9:26 pm

TMB wrote:
I use any medical system that works. I dont like the side effects of allopathy, but use them when I think they are appropriate. Likewise with alternative therapies. If they work, I use them. I have been placed in scenarios and presented with some stark choices with my family and chosen allopathy in some cases, alternative in others. Perhaps these have not been thr right decisions whn I have chosen allopathy, but I hav had some excellent outcomes from alternatives, and even managed to get allopaths to change their perspective.



Each system of medicine has its own strengths and weakness. The wisdom lies in knowing which one is more approriate at a particular instant and/or choosing the best among available
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#805  Postby campermon » Jun 20, 2010 9:28 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
I repeat. Many things in this world cannot be explained by 'science' and that is the beauty of the wonder of life. You can either live in the mainstream and wait until its widely accepted, then you believe it, or you can look back thousands of years and believe what your forefathers believed before 'science' came along.


Correct me if I'm wrong 'Dr'. But didn't most of our ancient 'forefathers' tend to lead short lives made miserable by medical conditions that are routinely cured by modern medicine today? Also, is it not a fact that on average humans live longer than they ever have in recorded history?

:coffee:
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#806  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 20, 2010 9:36 pm

TMB wrote:No issue with allopathy being able to smash bacteria with the wonders of antibiotics, but how will it deal with the oversue of the drug and the inevitable arms race that ensues when treating this way, as bacteria become increasingly resistant. Not only this, also the damage caused by using antibiotics on the overall person. Allopathy is shortsighted as a result of the approach it takes, and is almost unable to treat the entire person. Even homepathy falls short of this ideal, to treat the entire person, simply due to logistics and lack of complete knowledge about any patient.


Not just anti-biotics but many other conventional medicines are over perscribed
http://dartmed.dartmouth.edu/fall06/htm ... _label.php

Conventional medicine's approach is of compartments. Cardioligist is looking after heart compartment. Gastreontologist is looking after .......and so on, as if different compartment has nothing to do with each other.

Gray`s anatomy textbook says :“Unfortunately and perhaps particularly in the medical sphere, the compartmentalisation of anatomy into several disciplines or subjects – with attendant titles, individual chairs and even separated depts.—tends towards disintegration.”
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#807  Postby campermon » Jun 20, 2010 9:49 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Conventional medicine's approach is of compartments. Cardioligist is looking after heart compartment. Gastreontologist is looking after .......and so on, as if different compartment has nothing to do with each other.


But it works to save lives and prolong healthy lives (see my previous post). I'm afraid that you just have to suck it up 'Dr'.

;)
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#808  Postby RPizzle » Jun 20, 2010 10:32 pm

campermon wrote:
Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Conventional medicine's approach is of compartments. Cardioligist is looking after heart compartment. Gastreontologist is looking after .......and so on, as if different compartment has nothing to do with each other.


But it works to save lives and prolong healthy lives (see my previous post). I'm afraid that you just have to suck it up 'Dr'.

;)


Since homeopathy has been used for for such a long time, are there any diseases which have been cured exclusively through the use of homeopathy? For instance conventional medicine pretty much eliminated polio, smallpox, measles, etc.

Are there any diseases which were first diagnosed via the use of homeopathic practices?

Also, I think by gastreontologist you meant gastroenterologist which deals with the digestive system. Gastreontology does sound like a cool new idea for philosophy though. :thumbup:
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#809  Postby Shrunk » Jun 20, 2010 11:47 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:
Homeopathy medicine for various disease conditions http://www.trusthomeopathy.org/research ... dence.html


Just noticed something on that page (my emphasis:)

Listed below are medical conditions where positive findings for homeopathy have been reported in at least one systematic review, randomised controlled trial (RCT) or non-randomised study.

Download full list of references for all conditions: Clinical research evidence in favour of homeopathy (7 pages). For more complete details of the research, visit the research section of the Faculty of Homeopathy's website, which includes details of those RCTs that were either negative or non-conclusive.


The entire body of research supposedly supporting homeopathy, for every single condition for which they claim efficacy mind your, can fit on a mere 7 pages. And that includes "non-randomized studies." :dopey:

This is assuming that those studies actually support homeopathy which, as we have seen, if far from a safe assumption.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#810  Postby Shrunk » Jun 20, 2010 11:51 pm

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote: Not just anti-biotics but many other conventional medicines are over perscribed
http://dartmed.dartmouth.edu/fall06/htm ... _label.php


From that article:

Of the 725 million prescriptions he analyzed, 15% were written without evidence of safety or effectiveness. In other words, these drugs were not approved by the FDA for the condition they were prescribed for and there were few or no reports in the scientific literature supporting the use.


That's a bit different than the 85% figure you quoted earlier. Maybe you got the numbers reversed? :ask:

(BTW, there's nothing there suggesting medications are "overprescribed".)
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#811  Postby Shrunk » Jun 21, 2010 12:06 am

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote: I repeat. Many things in this world cannot be explained by 'science' and that is the beauty of the wonder of life. You can either live in the mainstream and wait until its widely accepted, then you believe it, or you can look back thousands of years and believe what your forefathers believed before 'science' came along.


You keep contradicting yourself. First you say that "Real science is homeopathy", but then you say we shouldn't trust science. If science says homeopathy works, and science is always wrong, then that means homeopathy doesn't work, doesn't it?

OTOH, if your position is that homeopathy has no scientific evidence to support it, and people who use it are just blindly and randomly trusting their health to a bunch of magical rituals with no evidence to back it up, then we can end this discussion on a note of complete agreement.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#812  Postby Alan C » Jun 21, 2010 12:18 am

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:

I repeat. Many things in this world cannot be explained by 'science' and that is the beauty of the wonder of life. You can either live in the mainstream and wait until its widely accepted, then you believe it, or you can look back thousands of years and believe what your forefathers believed before 'science' came along.


Many of our forefathers believed the world was flat, everything revolved around the Earth and illnesses were caused by evil spirits. Are you seriously suggesting people should still believe in this dumbfuckery and others like it? It is because of science we get to see you spout this wibble for all to see.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#813  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 21, 2010 4:00 am

tytalus wrote:

As for Edison's light bulb, it is curious to consider that apparently the light bulb had already been invented, and Edison's attempts (which vary in number depending on who you ask) were to develop a commercially viable product...



Thomas Edison used homeopathy and gave homeopathic remedies to his workers http://bit.ly/chLNUN
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#814  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 21, 2010 4:06 am

Arcanyn wrote:
What does it actually mean "to treat the entire patient"? If we give someone antibiotics to kill the bacteria which have infected their toe, how is this deficient? Their problem is that there are a whole bunch of bacteria in their toe getting up to no good, and the antibiotics get rid of them. Once this is done, what more is there to do? Why do we need to 'treat the entire patient', when there's nothing wrong with the rest of the patient?


Homeopathy is based on the fact that it is the whole person who is affected by the disease and it is the whole person who responds to the medicine.

To this day, conventional medicines are still classified according to disease: anti-inflammatory to contain inflammation, anti-biotics to kill bacteria, anti-pyretic to contain fever, etc. Conventional Medical philosophy should understand homeopathy's system that the mere treatment of symptoms and organs can only help temporarily and that it is the healing power of the body as whole that has to be enhanced.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#815  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 21, 2010 4:10 am

DST70 wrote:
Dudely wrote:You are denying huge mounds of studies that show it to be placebos.


That's not quite right — huge mounds of studies show it to have no statistical significance better than placebo.


If homeopathy medicine is just placebo, then

1. Why does homeopathy work with patients who have been treated unsuccessfully by conventional medicine for many years?

2. Why doesn’t Conventional Medicine benefit as much from a ‘placebo’ effect?
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#816  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 21, 2010 4:13 am

Ubjon wrote:
Well its their money they are wasting so I guess that we may as well leave them to it. One thing I would like to see is a law put in place to protect individuals from their carers and guardians to ensure that they get the proper medical attention that they need.


Why do you seek to deprive people of homeopathic treatment if it is the medicine of their choice?
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#817  Postby Thommo » Jun 21, 2010 4:15 am

1. It doesn't.

2. It does.

Leading questions though. :nono:
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#818  Postby Goldenmane » Jun 21, 2010 4:17 am

Someone's seriously using thalidomide as an argument that proper testing is bad or some shit?

Thalidomide never underwent proper testing before it was released, in most places. The company producing it touted it as a fucking wonder-drug, and most people just took their fucking word for it. Indeed, the FDA refused approval because the claims weren't backed up with proper testing data, which is why there was little impact in the US.

What this has to do with homeopathy, which rests upon the thoroughly ludicrous notion that distilled water that's been shaken around a bit can cure anything other than dehydration is beyond me.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#819  Postby Goldenmane » Jun 21, 2010 4:19 am

Dr. Nancy Malik wrote:Why do you seek to deprive people of homeopathic treatment if it is the medicine of their choice?


Heh. Homeopathic treatment is medicine in the same way that pointing the bone is medicine.
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Re: The Danger of Science Denial - "Alternative Medicine"-Sp

#820  Postby Dr. Nancy Malik » Jun 21, 2010 4:26 am

DST70 wrote:
I haven't read all of this thread so forgive me if I missed something. As far as I know though, the claims against homeopathy (or acupuncture, qi gong therapy etc) stem from (1) inconclusive/poor performance in RCTs, and (2) implausability of the proposed therapeutic mechanism. (If there are more I'd be interested to hear them.) As evidence based medicine is the dominant model these days, (2) is not a sufficient reason to discount a treatment, but (1) is.

The RCT has only become the benchmark test since the 60s after the thalidomide disaster, and it has its shortcomings, just like everything else. I think TBM has it right in saying:

"... my post pointed out the issue with evidence based, repeatable systems in that there is much that gets missed, just because its not possible to capture all of reality in a neat bundle and describe it in its completenes."



The double blind placebo trial was only invented in the 60's and medicine has been used way before then.

Few decades back it was emperical science all over the medical establishment, till the time big conventional pharma companies come over, took over the agenda of scientific community and replace emperical science by double blind studies.

So now everything would be seen from the lens of double blind. So anything which does not pass through the lens is unscinetific. So all the knowledge and wisdom of our forefathers is rubbish from the view point of conventional medicine. It's like George Bush saying, "You are either with us or against us"

Anyways Bush party lost and obama came
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