Consciousness - a product of the brain?

SpeedOfSound · **#41** by **SpeedOfSound** » May 22, 2012 9:45 am

DavidMcC wrote:
chairman bill wrote:An ant is aware of the pheromomes, and its behaviour alters as a result. That awareness is consciousness.

If you say so. Doing a Cito?. My posts in another thread on C were meant to show that my version of C was consistent with something we have evolved - because we mammals do not get born already knowing what to do, unlike many other species. Thus what you call a circular argument is broken by the sciences concerned with our evolution.

So did it just suddenly evolve or did it really evolve?

chairman bill · **#42** by **chairman bill** » May 22, 2012 9:45 am

I think we need to distinguish between consciousness (an awareness of the external world, that potentially leads to changes in behaviour), and self-consciousness.

The thermostat has been programmed to behave, and to some extent, that is analogous to certain innate behaviours. What it doesn't do is learn. Is it conscious? It depends on how precious we are about the term & what it implies.

SpeedOfSound · **#43** by **SpeedOfSound** » May 22, 2012 9:46 am

chairman bill wrote:I think we need to distinguish between consciousness (an awareness of the external world, that potentially leads to changes in behaviour), and self-consciousness.

The thermostat has been programmed to behave, and to some extent, that is analogous to certain innate behaviours. What it doesn't do is learn. Is it conscious? It depends on how precious we are about the term & what it implies.

Others have called that self thingy second order awareness. Being aware that you are thus aware has been called third-order by Lycan among others.

Mr.Samsa · **#44** by **Mr.Samsa** » May 22, 2012 9:51 am

chairman bill wrote:I think we need to distinguish between consciousness (an awareness of the external world, that potentially leads to changes in behaviour), and self-consciousness.

The thermostat has been programmed to behave, and to some extent, that is analogous to certain innate behaviours. What it doesn't do is learn. Is it conscious? It depends on how precious we are about the term & what it implies.

Yeah, the "learning" aspect is important. I always liked the definition of awareness or consciousness as 'adaptively variable behavior within the lifetime of an individual' (although it was originally used to define intelligence). This definition excludes simple cause and effect relations, like atoms or thermostats, and even excludes automata like computer programs or the hypothetical organism that responds purely to instinct (even though none exists, as far as I'm aware).

Mike_L · **#45** by **Mike_L** » May 22, 2012 9:51 am

Is consciousness just a function of working memory? :dunno:

An organism's self-awareness, awareness of surroundings, awareness of stimuli... all limited by the speed at which nerve impulses travel along neurons and at which the brain processes information... fast, but not instantaneous... therefore consciousness is actually a past-tense event, albeit a very recent past-tense event.

At the heart of a consciousness mechanism lies a capacity for the temporary storage and manipulation of information, which is the hallmark of working memory.

Baddeley’s Working Memory Model
http://willcov.com/bio-consciousness/review/Working%20Memory.htm

chairman bill · **#46** by **chairman bill** » May 22, 2012 9:54 am

Mike_L wrote:Is consciousness just a function of working memory?

An organism's self-awareness, awareness of surroundings, awareness of stimuli... all limited by the speed at which nerve impulses travel along neurons and at which the brain processes information... fast, but not instantaneous... therefore consciousness is actually a past-tense event, albeit a very recent past-tense event.

I think that consciousness is very much a past-tense, post hoc event. Even in future planning, our awareness takes a time to catch up with what we're doing.

Kenaz · **#47** by **Kenaz** » May 22, 2012 9:55 am

chairman bill wrote:Let's try this - consciousness is a basic requirement for living organisms to survive, and is nothing more than the ability to be aware of & stimuli. It is a basic process.

What we mistakenly do is layer various other brain processes, such as memory, emotion, future planning and so on, upon this construct we call 'consciousness'. But all these supposedly seperate things (memory, emotion etc) are inextricably linked, based on overlapping distributed systems, that interconnect & interrelate.

We respond to stimuli, and our awareness of that response elicits the illusion of intentionality, which has more to do with post hoc sense-making than anything else. Various 'higher order' brain functions get subsumed into this thing we call 'consciousness', because we have some awareness of them. Most are in fact quite unconscious events.

Thoughts?

CB,

It sounds as if you are speaking about the lack of 'free will'? That our sense of 'willful' action comes only after our reacton, hence the illusion of 'free will'? When I think of will, I speak of intentionality. So, saying that 'free will' appears to be an illusion, in the sense that we have complete control over our intentions, uneffected by our environment, mood, (etc, in infinitum), appears to be an illusion, is not to say that we do not have wills, or intentions, in our actions.

In a poetic sense; we may guide the sails, but we can't control how the wind is blowing. Yes? Very nice? :naughty2:

mindhack · **#48** by **mindhack** » May 22, 2012 9:58 am

chairman bill wrote:I think we need to distinguish between consciousness (an awareness of the external world, that potentially leads to changes in behaviour), and self-consciousness.

The thermostat has been programmed to behave, and to some extent, that is analogous to certain innate behaviours. What it doesn't do is learn. Is it conscious? It depends on how precious we are about the term & what it implies.

Yes, good point. But how to determine whether an animal is self-conscious. I know of a spider who reacts to its own image for example. See below, funny..

http://www.skoften.net/index/uploaded/spin_in_spiegelbeeld

SpeedOfSound · **#49** by **SpeedOfSound** » May 22, 2012 10:04 am

Mike_L wrote:Is consciousness just a function of working memory?

An organism's self-awareness, awareness of surroundings, awareness of stimuli... all limited by the speed at which nerve impulses travel along neurons and at which the brain processes information... fast, but not instantaneous... therefore consciousness is actually a past-tense event, albeit a very recent past-tense event.

At the heart of a consciousness mechanism lies a capacity for the temporary storage and manipulation of information, which is the hallmark of working memory.
Baddeley’s Working Memory Model
http://willcov.com/bio-consciousness/review/Working%20Memory.htm

You make a good point here. Here is why. A very interesting thing happens when you say "C is <something scientific>". You end up with a problem, called the gap problem, mostly because of the term to the left of the copula. How do we observe or fix exactly what that is? Well, we can self-reflect and try and catch it but what we always end up with is catching a thing just now passed. We cannot possibly ever catch the thing naked in the instant.

DavidMcC · **#50** by **DavidMcC** » May 22, 2012 10:17 am

mindhack wrote:
chairman bill wrote:I think we need to distinguish between consciousness (an awareness of the external world, that potentially leads to changes in behaviour), and self-consciousness.

The thermostat has been programmed to behave, and to some extent, that is analogous to certain innate behaviours. What it doesn't do is learn. Is it conscious? It depends on how precious we are about the term & what it implies.

Yes, good point. But how to determine whether an animal is self-conscious. I know of a spider who reacts to its own image for example. See below, funny..

http://www.skoften.net/index/uploaded/spin_in_spiegelbeeld

Mindhack, the spider in the video is merely demonstrating that can sees its reflection, and that it does not realise that the reflection is only itself. It does not require C to react in such an instictive way, it only requires its senses and fixed pattern instincts.

chairman bill · **#51** by **chairman bill** » May 22, 2012 10:22 am

JWG wrote:... When I think of will, I speak of intentionality. So, saying that 'free will' appears to be an illusion, in the sense that we have complete control over our intentions, uneffected by our environment, mood, (etc, in infinitum), appears to be an illusion, is not to say that we do not have wills, or intentions, in our actions.

We clearly have will & intention. Our capacity for future planning is evidence of that. However, plans, whether of mice or men, have a habit of getting upset, and we must respond to events, even if it is to ignore them & soldier on (ignoring is still a behavioural response). We can give direction, but do not have control, and we don't even have conscious control over what control we do have. At least not for the majority of the time.

GrahamH · **#52** by **GrahamH** » May 22, 2012 10:23 am

mindhack wrote:Ants display creativity in their ability to respond to changes in their environment. If that's not an expression of consciousness, it certainly is awareness, is it not? I think the ability to come up with alternatives and be creative are more fundamental properties of conscious behaviour then whether or not ants contemplate individually battle strategies and societal structures.

Computers can come up with 'creative solutions' not anticipated by their programmers. Does that mean computers are subjective entities having experiences (= aware / conscious)?

mindhack wrote:In many respects humans are ants. We both are social animals, build colonies, react to changes in our environment, don't make our minds up individually, a lot if not all of our behaviour has formed automatically as a respons to basic experiences such as pain, pleasure and yes...pheromones too .

In short, how can you be sure we're so different from ants in respect to consciousness?

We can't be sure, which is the problem. Does an ant that runs away from heat or writhes after contact with insecticide feel pain? Does a robot with heat sensors that runs away from heat feel pain?

DavidMcC · **#53** by **DavidMcC** » May 22, 2012 10:23 am

SpeedOfSound wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
chairman bill wrote:An ant is aware of the pheromomes, and its behaviour alters as a result. That awareness is consciousness.

If you say so. Doing a Cito?. My posts in another thread on C were meant to show that my version of C was consistent with something we have evolved - because we mammals do not get born already knowing what to do, unlike many other species. Thus what you call a circular argument is broken by the sciences concerned with our evolution.

So did it just suddenly evolve or did it really evolve?

It obviously didn't just suddenly appear, of course, BUT the mammal-like reptiles, which might well have been intermediates, are all extinct, unfortunately. They might have provided an indication of the details of how lactation resulted in a postponed "programming" of the cerebellum, and the necessity to learn habits instead of being born with them.

DavidMcC · **#54** by **DavidMcC** » May 22, 2012 10:29 am

charman bill wrote:I think we need to distinguish between consciousness (an awareness of the external world, that potentially leads to changes in behaviour), and self-consciousness.

That is a different definition of C than I have been talking to, but at least I defined mine in a couple of other recent threads. Your C is no different from simple "awareness". On that basis, an dragon fly is almost as conscious as we are, because it has pretty good vision.

Mike_L · **#55** by **Mike_L** » May 22, 2012 10:33 am

Here's Alan Baddeley on the role of working memory (and specifically the "episodic buffer" of his model) in consciousness...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAcqWd4X50g[/youtube]

mindhack · **#56** by **mindhack** » May 22, 2012 10:34 am

DavidMcC wrote:
mindhack wrote:
chairman bill wrote:I think we need to distinguish between consciousness (an awareness of the external world, that potentially leads to changes in behaviour), and self-consciousness.

The thermostat has been programmed to behave, and to some extent, that is analogous to certain innate behaviours. What it doesn't do is learn. Is it conscious? It depends on how precious we are about the term & what it implies.

Yes, good point. But how to determine whether an animal is self-conscious. I know of a spider who reacts to its own image for example. See below, funny..

http://www.skoften.net/index/uploaded/spin_in_spiegelbeeld

Mindhack, the spider in the video is merely demonstrating that can sees its reflection, and that it does not realise that the reflection is only itself. It does not require C to react in such an instictive way, it only requires its senses and fixed pattern instincts.

You're probably right about the spider not realizing, but how do you tell? I think it's a stretch to fill in what the spider does and does not realize based on this video.

SpeedOfSound · **#57** by **SpeedOfSound** » May 22, 2012 10:37 am

DavidMcC wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
chairman bill wrote:An ant is aware of the pheromomes, and its behaviour alters as a result. That awareness is consciousness.

If you say so. Doing a Cito?. My posts in another thread on C were meant to show that my version of C was consistent with something we have evolved - because we mammals do not get born already knowing what to do, unlike many other species. Thus what you call a circular argument is broken by the sciences concerned with our evolution.

So did it just suddenly evolve or did it really evolve?

It obviously didn't just suddenly appear, of course, BUT the mammal-like reptiles, which might well have been intermediates, are all extinct, unfortunately. They might have provided an indication of the details of how lactation resulted in a postponed "programming" of the cerebellum, and the necessity to learn habits instead of being born with them.

The comparative anatomy of mammals,birds, reptiles, even fishes and invertebrates, show some cortical development or precursors. This kind of thinking we do is very much continuous far into the past and in my opinion right to the single cell. But then I spend a good 4 hours a day thinking about how we think. I have a whole zoo of ideas about it.

SpeedOfSound · **#58** by **SpeedOfSound** » May 22, 2012 10:43 am

mindhack wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
mindhack wrote:
chairman bill wrote:I think we need to distinguish between consciousness (an awareness of the external world, that potentially leads to changes in behaviour), and self-consciousness.

The thermostat has been programmed to behave, and to some extent, that is analogous to certain innate behaviours. What it doesn't do is learn. Is it conscious? It depends on how precious we are about the term & what it implies.

Yes, good point. But how to determine whether an animal is self-conscious. I know of a spider who reacts to its own image for example. See below, funny..

http://www.skoften.net/index/uploaded/spin_in_spiegelbeeld

Mindhack, the spider in the video is merely demonstrating that can sees its reflection, and that it does not realise that the reflection is only itself. It does not require C to react in such an instictive way, it only requires its senses and fixed pattern instincts.

You're probably right about the spider not realizing, but how do you tell? I think it's a stretch to fill in what the spider does and does not realize based on this video.

Here you run into the same problem with the word 'realizing'. What is it?

chairman bill · **#59** by **chairman bill** » May 22, 2012 10:46 am

DavidMcC wrote:... That is a different definition of C than I have been talking to, but at least I defined mine in a couple of other recent threads. Your C is no different from simple "awareness". On that basis, an dragon fly is almost as conscious as we are, because it has pretty good vision.

I suspect a dragonfly lacks self-consciousness though, suggesting that overall, it's consciousness is not as developed as ours. Then again, that might be simply due to a lower level of cognitive functioning generally, so fewer internal events to be aware of, and no means of cogitating upon that awareness, let alone being aware of that cogitating upon awareness.

SpeedOfSound · **#60** by **SpeedOfSound** » May 22, 2012 10:48 am

Mike_L wrote:Here's Alan Baddeley on the role of working memory (and specifically the "episodic buffer" of his model) in consciousness...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAcqWd4X50g[/youtube]

I would have agreed with him on the two kinds of imagers being a reporting difference. I was wrong. I am anxious to see what kinds of increased activity is seen and in which areas. When arguing in the philosophy section I have had suspicions that some people imagine more like they sense. I do not. My imagined visuals are insipid while my visual sense is incredibly lurid. Particularly colors. I would like to see some cross studies done with people that suffer from depression and even addiction. I am the type of person that surrounds myself with color. I have over a 1000 colored pens in my office.

anyway. I like that guy.

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