Willie71 wrote:Spearthrower wrote:Willie71 wrote:The idea if free will being anything more than an illusion is a bit bizarre. We exist in the universe and are bound by its laws that are predictable, once the mechanisms are discovered. We are no different, just a bunch of chemicals and proteins suspended in water, following predictable reactions, although the patterns are too complex for us to predict with accuracy at this time.
While I am not taking the position that there necessarily is such a beastie as free will, I don't think your argument above is good reasoning to disclude the concept - free will could be an emergent property of a certain arrangement of chemicals and proteins just as thought or consciousness is.
In the end it would still be an illusion, as the chemical reactions could all be predicted ahead of time, if the variables were all known. Fire doesn't choose to burn, it just does, with fuel and heat. Potassium and calcium will cross membranes at certain thresholds that don't choose when to do so, they just do at the moment they are supposed to. No matter how many connections in concert there are, each could ultimately be predicted in advance with enough awareness and processing capability. Since each moment is novel to us, we believe we are choosing, but all the networks laid down in our brains are the result of every moment before that, through nutrition, insult, growth and development, and experience. It's a lot of data, but not more than the data that makes up a solar system, or Galaxy. Everything functions in a finely tuned way, and I fail to see any compelling argument to the contrary. Theoretical physics has uncertainty, but these physicists state that this idea is misused by those claiming free will is supported by uncertainty. Considering time is an illusion, and that everything that has or could happen likely already exists, the only way free will could exist is with multiple simultaneous realities, where every subatomic probability exists. I am nor opposed to that concept as an idea, but it's not something I would claim is true, based on the current evidence.
Again, I don't think that follows. Emergent systems can have stochastic properties which make them intrinsically unpredictable, even if every quantity is known. Consequently, I think you are placing absolute confidence in something you cannot, by definition, yet know to be true.
On a slight tangent, as I write this sentence, there are a myriad of ways I can express my rationale, I have deleted several portions of sentences and re-written them on the fly to better accord with what I hope to convey - and probably still fail to achieve the precision I could aspire to. If all the output of my cognitive functions was predictable by chemistry, would they predict my mistakes, amendments, additions, etc?
As always with complex issues like this, I often wonder if we're stuck in the type of binary dichotomy which hashistorically proven itself a limitation in explaining the complexities of reality - snapshots where there is a gradient; platonic ideals interfering with the messiness of existence. I can perceive of a free will that, while still restrained by the sum of our experiences, be they genetic, encultured, or individual, is not predetermined in its outcome. If the free will beastie exists, I expect in lurks in stochastic jungles!
Do you consider thoughts and consciousness illusions as well?