Heathenism

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Re: Heathenism

#21  Postby mmmcheezy » Mar 13, 2010 5:24 pm

...so basically the same values everyone else has without silly labels?
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Re: Heathenism

#22  Postby natselrox » Mar 13, 2010 7:43 pm

Heathenism my arse.
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Re: Heathenism

#23  Postby justanillusion » Mar 13, 2010 8:05 pm

Ciarin wrote:
Nebogipfel wrote:OK, I'll bite.

What are the fundamental precepts of Heathenism? (Assuming that this is a sensible question to ask?)



The fundamental precepts of heathenism depend entirely on which branch of heathenism you're talking about. In general, Heathenism tends to put a high value on honor, reputation, tradition, family, ancestry, self-reliance, etc.


So do you actually believe in the existence of Germanic gods and Roman gods (I'm going by your sig here)? That's a helluva lot of them ... Also, the few pagans are know cannot agree ahether gods are just mentaphors for the named precepts (which should help the pagan concentrate on the individual virtues) or real gods - immaterial superpower beings for us to pray to. Where do you stand?
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Re: Heathenism

#24  Postby Nebogipfel » Mar 13, 2010 8:27 pm

Ciarin wrote:
Nebogipfel wrote:OK, I'll bite.

What are the fundamental precepts of Heathenism? (Assuming that this is a sensible question to ask?)



The fundamental precepts of heathenism depend entirely on which branch of heathenism you're talking about. In general, Heathenism tends to put a high value on honor, reputation, tradition, family, ancestry, self-reliance, etc.


That's a bit vague. Can you elucidate on what makes Heathenism specifically... Heathen? How would you describe Heathenism as you practice it?
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Re: Heathenism

#25  Postby Ciarin » Mar 13, 2010 9:29 pm

mmmcheezy wrote:...so basically the same values everyone else has without silly labels?



LOL!! You think everyone else has the same values? Srsly?
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Re: Heathenism

#26  Postby Ciarin » Mar 13, 2010 9:42 pm

justanillusion wrote:

So do you actually believe in the existence of Germanic gods and Roman gods (I'm going by your sig here)?



Yes.



That's a helluva lot of them ... Also, the few pagans are know cannot agree ahether gods are just mentaphors for the named precepts (which should help the pagan concentrate on the individual virtues) or real gods - immaterial superpower beings for us to pray to. Where do you stand?


Gods are gods, not metaphors. Or "mentaphors".
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Re: Heathenism

#27  Postby Ciarin » Mar 13, 2010 9:47 pm

Nebogipfel wrote:
Ciarin wrote:
Nebogipfel wrote:OK, I'll bite.

What are the fundamental precepts of Heathenism? (Assuming that this is a sensible question to ask?)



The fundamental precepts of heathenism depend entirely on which branch of heathenism you're talking about. In general, Heathenism tends to put a high value on honor, reputation, tradition, family, ancestry, self-reliance, etc.


That's a bit vague. Can you elucidate on what makes Heathenism specifically... Heathen? How would you describe Heathenism as you practice it?



Heathenism is the cultural and religious beliefs of ancient northern european tribal peoples reconstructed. The movement started in the 70's I believe. But it had earlier incarnations as well. There are germanic heathens, nordic heathens, anglo-saxon heathens, etc. Some of the heathen religions are Theodism, Fyrnsidu, Asatru, Forn Sed, Odinism, and Urglaawe.
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Re: Heathenism

#28  Postby RealityJunkie » Mar 13, 2010 9:59 pm

My last post was messed up by my phone. I was going to post this:

RealityJunkie wrote:Hey it's not true! I wasn't the one who said it was lame. You can check my posts. I asked what reason you had to believe in heathenism if you didn't evidence.


Just wanted to clarify that I was not the one who said it was lame.
But I suffer and have suffered with them: prisoners are they unto me, and stigmatised ones. He whom they call Saviour put them in fetters:— In fetters of false values and fatuous words! Oh, that some one would save them from their Saviour!
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Re: Heathenism

#29  Postby Nebogipfel » Mar 13, 2010 10:04 pm

Ciarin wrote:

Heathenism is the cultural and religious beliefs of ancient northern european tribal peoples reconstructed. The movement started in the 70's I believe. But it had earlier incarnations as well. There are germanic heathens, nordic heathens, anglo-saxon heathens, etc. Some of the heathen religions are Theodism, Fyrnsidu, Asatru, Forn Sed, Odinism, and Urglaawe.


Interesting (really!). What inclines you to believe in those gods, as opposed to any the others on offer?
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Re: Heathenism

#30  Postby mmmcheezy » Mar 13, 2010 10:15 pm

Ciarin wrote:
mmmcheezy wrote:...so basically the same values everyone else has without silly labels?



LOL!! You think everyone else has the same values? Srsly?


:roll:
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Re: Heathenism

#31  Postby justanillusion » Mar 13, 2010 10:45 pm

Ciarin wrote:
justanillusion wrote:

So do you actually believe in the existence of Germanic gods and Roman gods (I'm going by your sig here)?



Yes.



That's a helluva lot of them ... Also, the few pagans are know cannot agree ahether gods are just mentaphors for the named precepts (which should help the pagan concentrate on the individual virtues) or real gods - immaterial superpower beings for us to pray to. Where do you stand?


Gods are gods, not metaphors. Or "mentaphors".


What made you opt for the second pantheon once you had one? Or did you adopt both at once? Do you hold them separate or syncretize them?
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Re: Heathenism

#32  Postby Ciarin » Mar 14, 2010 12:29 am

justanillusion wrote:
What made you opt for the second pantheon once you had one? Or did you adopt both at once? Do you hold them separate or syncretize them?


I'm of Italian and English descent. Gotta keep 'em separated.
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Re: Heathenism

#33  Postby Ciarin » Mar 14, 2010 1:10 am

mmmcheezy wrote:
Ciarin wrote:
mmmcheezy wrote:...so basically the same values everyone else has without silly labels?



LOL!! You think everyone else has the same values? Srsly?


:roll:



FYI, everyone's values will vary, that's why they're subjective. Generally heathens tend to focus on certain values more than others, that doesn't mean no one else has those values.

:roll:
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Re: Heathenism

#34  Postby Moonwatcher » Mar 14, 2010 2:28 pm

RealityJunkie wrote:
Ciarin wrote:
RealityJunkie wrote:Err... and here I was thinking I was about to read some sort of evidence for Heathenism. :scratch: :?


Let me make it easy for you, there's no evidence.


Hmm, is there something else to make up for it?


Of course there's something to make up for it. Great stories. There's a guy with a hammer and when he throws it at the Storm giants, that's why there's lightning in the sky (and storms) and his chariot wheels turning on air is the thunder. Buckets of awesome.

I also grant the utter contradiction of mocking the Bible for its blind mythical assertions while having a great time with Pagan myths like Thor. But there are differences that cause that.

1. Nobody is trying to get "Scientific Odinism" taught in schools.
2. Nobody is saying you'll go to Nifleheim if you don't literally believe the Norse myths or other Pagan myths.
3. Modern pagans instantly admit there is no evidence (see Ciarin above) and don't spend hours, days, weeks, months and years contriving utterly baseless pseudo-scientific waffle in an attempt to prove there is evidence where there is none.
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Re: Heathenism

#35  Postby Moonwatcher » Mar 14, 2010 2:47 pm

xsmooth_criminalx wrote:
Ciarin wrote:I'm really a Heathen. Did you really expect a serious discussion about heathenism in this thread, especially after your "theism is lame" post?


Why on Earth would you post this thread, then? I would have humoured a discussion on dead religions almost no one believes in had you not taken a cheap shot at Michael, out of fear of having your silly little religion ridiculed by everyone.




Atheist here but its debatable how many people really believe in heathen gods. Certainly insignificant compared to the Abrahamic religions but still hundreds of thousands.

Interesting article here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/feb/01/religion.uk

on how many Greeks still worship the Hellenic gods even though Greece is a theocracy forbidding most non-Christian religions (except a few because of their political clout).

Now, worldwide, its always debatable how many people *really believe* and how many just do it for fun and/ or to thumb their noses at the larger religions that were and are forced on them. But still...
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Re: Heathenism

#36  Postby Moonwatcher » Mar 14, 2010 3:34 pm

Ciarin wrote:
Heathenism is the cultural and religious beliefs of ancient northern european tribal peoples reconstructed. The movement started in the 70's I believe. But it had earlier incarnations as well. There are germanic heathens, nordic heathens, anglo-saxon heathens, etc. Some of the heathen religions are Theodism, Fyrnsidu, Asatru, Forn Sed, Odinism, and Urglaawe.


Are you familiar with this site

http://www.thorshof.org/thor.htm

or this one

http://www.thorshof.org/thorserp.htm

?

Its an attempt to reconstruct the Norse myths and find some remnants of what the ancient Norsemen might really have believed about their gods. Its long been suspected that the myths as we have them in complete form, written down by Snorri Sturleson, might have been somewhat influenced by his being a Christian and by the Christian culture that existed when he wrote them down.

Apparently, there are historical problems. There's a fragment of Thor's battle with the Midgard Serpent (the one when Thor was on the boat) from the 9th century but in this version, Thor seems to win the battle and kill the serpent. Apparently, there's been at least one temple to Thor unearthed showing the same battle carved into the wall with Thor apparently killing the serpent. The problem is if he killed the serpent there, it wasn't alive to fight him at Ragnorak.

This has brought into question how much Sturleson allowed Christian concepts to seep into his telling and how much he altered some stories.

I would think this would be of interest to both neo-pagans and other people with an interest in Norse myth who, for historical interest, want to get as good an understanding as they can of what the beliefs might historically have been for the ancient Nordic peoples.
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Re: Heathenism

#37  Postby Ciarin » Mar 14, 2010 6:27 pm

Moonwatcher wrote:
Ciarin wrote:
Heathenism is the cultural and religious beliefs of ancient northern european tribal peoples reconstructed. The movement started in the 70's I believe. But it had earlier incarnations as well. There are germanic heathens, nordic heathens, anglo-saxon heathens, etc. Some of the heathen religions are Theodism, Fyrnsidu, Asatru, Forn Sed, Odinism, and Urglaawe.


Are you familiar with this site

http://www.thorshof.org/thor.htm

or this one

http://www.thorshof.org/thorserp.htm

?


Those are the same website. And no I'm not familiar with it.



Its an attempt to reconstruct the Norse myths and find some remnants of what the ancient Norsemen might really have believed about their gods. Its long been suspected that the myths as we have them in complete form, written down by Snorri Sturleson, might have been somewhat influenced by his being a Christian and by the Christian culture that existed when he wrote them down.

Apparently, there are historical problems. There's a fragment of Thor's battle with the Midgard Serpent (the one when Thor was on the boat) from the 9th century but in this version, Thor seems to win the battle and kill the serpent. Apparently, there's been at least one temple to Thor unearthed showing the same battle carved into the wall with Thor apparently killing the serpent. The problem is if he killed the serpent there, it wasn't alive to fight him at Ragnorak.

This has brought into question how much Sturleson allowed Christian concepts to seep into his telling and how much he altered some stories.


Yea there's a lot of debate on that with Asatruar.


I would think this would be of interest to both neo-pagans and other people with an interest in Norse myth who, for historical interest, want to get as good an understanding as they can of what the beliefs might historically have been for the ancient Nordic peoples.


Yes it is.


By the way I'm not a norse heathen.
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Re: Heathenism

#38  Postby justanillusion » Mar 14, 2010 11:03 pm

By the way I'm not a norse heathen.


Ciarin, I thought modern Heathen = Asatru :oops: What are the other branches of heathenism? I really thought it was all Germanic/Norse?
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Re: Heathenism

#39  Postby Ciarin » Mar 14, 2010 11:28 pm

There are germanic heathens, nordic heathens, anglo-saxon heathens, etc. Some of the heathen religions are Theodism, Fyrnsidu, Asatru, Forn Sed, Odinism, and Urglaawe.
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Re: Heathenism

#40  Postby starr » Mar 26, 2010 6:18 am


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