Zwaarddijk wrote:

Agrippina wrote:So I can safely use the 613?

Yeah, I bet Brain man just typoed.

Anyways, Christianity and the 70+ curses: generally, Christians have understood that part as though the curses are still for the Jews. The blessings, however, have been transferred to the Church. See, problem solved, and a good excuse for being antisemitic pops in as a free bonus!

I did copy it from an orthodox website, so I would imagine it's kosher.

Federico wrote:
Epigenetic mechanisms would be up- or down-regulated by the presence or absence of a culture which puts a premium on music playing.

Mr.Samsa wrote:.
This part is the problem. You haven't presented any evidence that this is possible and you seem to be basing your belief in this on your failure to understand epigenetics.
The environment in epigenetics does not include learning and culture. Certain aspects of our culture might make epigenetic changes more likely, for example if we lived in a mining culture then presumably certain chemicals or hormonal changes from spending most of our lives at the bottom of a coal mine would have some physiological effects, and some of these epigenetic changes might possibly be inheritable. But your understanding of epigenetics is crazy...

Federico wrote:
IOW, stem cells have acquired during evolution all the paraphernalia essential for regulating the 20.000-30,000 genes of the human genome. But when they differentiate into Insulin-producing cells in the Pancreas, or into music-producing neurones in the brain, they will respond only to some specific signals such as changes in blood sugar levels and changes in mood(?), respectively.
How does mood influence the neurones which will make you sing or play the violin? This is still the $ 40,000 question, but certainly hormones and neurotransmitters are major players in this field.

Mr.Samsa wrote:
That's nice, but it has nothing to do with epigenetics.

OK, Mr.Samsa: At least we have succeeded in exactly identifying where is the bone. Therefore, I'll try a different approach starting first with what you accept.
The capacity to make musical sounds orally was an evolutionary event which occurred in prehistoric men before talk. It must have given an evolutionary advantage such as for mating (mating calls), and for transmitting information and bonding within a tribe. It was the result of random mutations of primordial genes present in the brain, resulting in neurones differentiated for the production of musical sounds. This capacity was shared with birds and humpback whales, and preceded talk, which is also the result of genes' mutations but not only in the brain, since the larynx had to change to become a word-producing organ. This capacity is restricted to humans.
This capacity to make, but also to enjoy, musical sounds orally first, then through more and more sophisticated and pleasant to listen to instruments, was and still is under the control of specifically differentiated brain neurones which not only contain genes for music like all body cells, but also, and uniquely, the epigenetic machinery necessary for turning on and off the genes.

Now, for a more daring leap of faith, I will call music "Food for the Soul".
As a learned person as you are, I'm sure you have already heard this aphorism. It was also used by Shakespeare, who once said: "If music is food for love, lets play on." Therefore, in order to better understand the interplay of genes and epigenetic mechanisms which can be modified by the environment, I will compare the brain to the gut (which, BTW, is considered as a brain equivalent), musical genes with their machinery to enzyme-producing enterocytes, and music to food such as lactose.

As I have written above, making music evolved from a rudimentary, life saving tool, to a more and more sophisticated and pleasure-giving talent. For this, the machinery had to evolve and become more attuned to environmental needs, which is what occurred in the Middle Ages when European Courts required and had much respect for Minstrels, many of whom were Jewish, since music-making and money-lending were the only activities they were allowed to do.
Thus, environmental pressure made for the selection of the best, perfect pitch, musicians, and the potential transmission to the offspring of this talent.

Lets get back to the gut or little brain.
As a well read person, Mr.Samsa, I'm sure you have heard of the History of Lactase Deficiency.
Just to make a long story short, lactase is an enzyme made by enterocytes and which digests lactose, a milk sugar.
The gene for lactase and the regulating machinery appeared in prehistoric times by the usual evolutionary rules. However, at a certain point in time, sub-Sahara Africans lost the capacity to produce lactase, probably because milk had disappeared , and the machinery stopped operating. On the contrary, Northern Europeans were and still are blessed with large amounts of milk and milk produces, which they digest very well since their gut never stopped producing lactase.
Nowadays, many Africans and Afro-Americans still lack lactase and get sick if exposed to milk.

To conclude, music is food for the soul without which many people would find life much less enjoyable. To produce good music you need music neurones endowed with a well functioning machinery inherited from ancestors who were selected by environmental pressures for their musical proficiency.

Federico wrote:To produce good music you need music neurones endowed with a well functioning machinery inherited from ancestors who were selected by environmental pressures for their musical proficiency.

Robert Byers would be ashamed!

Speaking of 'good music', I think 'I Love the Way it Hurts' by Rihanna and Eminem and 'Raise Your Glass' by P!nk are excellent. Is there an objective standard for valuing good violin-playing over anything else in music, and doesn't pretty much every culture have music in its background? Not sure I get how the talk on violin-playing means anything to anyone other than a violin manufacturer.

natselrox wrote:

Federico wrote:To produce good music you need music neurones endowed with a well functioning machinery inherited from ancestors who were selected by environmental pressures for their musical proficiency.

Robert Byers would be ashamed!

This is for your perusal, little boy, but I'm not sure you are able to understand.

WSU Researcher Featured on BBC ‘Horizon’ Program
Wednesday, Nov. 2, 2005

Michael Skinner, Center for Reproductive Biology, 509/335-1524, skinner@wsu.edu
Cherie Winner, WSU News Service, 509/335-4846, cwinner@wsu.edu
James Tinney, WSU News Service, 509/335-8055, jltinney@wsu.edu


PULLMAN, Wash. – Washington State University molecular biologist Michael K. Skinner is one of four scientists featured in the Nov. 3 episode of the BBC science program “Horizon.” The episode, titled “Ghost in the Gene,” explores the growing body of evidence that genes – DNA sequences – are not the only source of heritable traits.

Recent research shows that changes in small chemicals attached to the DNA can turn genes on or off, affecting a wide range of processes including normal development and susceptibility to disease. Such changes are called “epigenetic,” meaning “around the genes.” Over the past several years, epigenetic changes have been implicated in several kinds of leukemia and in the premature aging of cloned animals such as Dolly the sheep.

“I think this concept that epigenetics is going to play a really important role in biology is just now being appreciated,” Skinner said. “It probably is a big piece of the puzzle which we didn’t really have before.”

In a paper in the journal “Science” earlier this year, Skinner reported that environmental toxins can cause epigenetic changes in fetal rats that eventually are transmitted to the rats’ descendents. Such results show that epigenetic changes can be even more stable in a population than changes to the DNA itself, and raise the possibility that events in a person’s lifetime – such as exposure to toxins, stress or disease – could affect that person’s descendents several generations later.

According to program notes provided by the BBC, “Horizon explores the ghost world in your genes – the hidden layer of inheritance that lies in every cell of our body.” The statement says the show describes the findings, by Skinner and others, that “epigenetic ‘switches’ control the genes themselves, and that these switches can be turned on and off by environmental factors like nutrition and stress. [The program] reports the startling first evidence that this can cause heritable effects in humans.”
Skinner is a professor in the Department of Molecular Biosciences and Director of the Center for Reproductive Biology.

Someone wrote:Speaking of 'good music', I think 'I Love the Way it Hurts' by Rihanna and Eminem and 'Raise Your Glass' by P!nk are excellent. Is there an objective standard for valuing good violin-playing over anything else in music, and doesn't pretty much every culture have music in its background? Not sure I get how the talk on violin-playing means anything to anyone other than a violin manufacturer.

That's part of my disagreement with Federico. I'm quite open to the idea that certain behavioural traits and abilities can be associated with particular ethnocultural groups on a genetic basis. But music seems to be a particularly bad example with which to try demostrate this. It is one thing that seems to be uniformly present in almost every culture and developed to the same degree. The only difference is the particular forms that music takes in various cultures. It's as universal as spoken language.

Federico wrote:
OK, Mr.Samsa: At least we have succeeded in exactly identifying where is the bone.

It shouldn't have too hard to understand, I've been telling you since I joined this thread that you were conflating learning environments and epigenetic environments.

Federico wrote:Therefore, I'll try a different approach starting first with what you accept.
The capacity to make musical sounds orally was an evolutionary event which occurred in prehistoric men before talk. It must have given an evolutionary advantage such as for mating (mating calls), and for transmitting information and bonding within a tribe. It was the result of random mutations of primordial genes present in the brain, resulting in neurones differentiated for the production of musical sounds.

Well this is obviously all speculation. It's possible and it has been hypothesised, but it's still currently speculation. And the idea that music was ever used for mating calls in humans is highly doubtful.

Federico wrote:This capacity was shared with birds and humpback whales, and preceded talk, which is also the result of genes' mutations but not only in the brain, since the larynx had to change to become a word-producing organ. This capacity is restricted to humans.

It's not clear what you think is "shared" with birds and whales - song bird and human speech took vastly different evolutionary paths, they aren't the same thing. And I'm not sure what you think is restricted to humans.

Federico wrote:This capacity to make, but also to enjoy, musical sounds orally first, then through more and more sophisticated and pleasant to listen to instruments, was and still is under the control of specifically differentiated brain neurones which not only contain genes for music like all body cells, but also, and uniquely, the epigenetic machinery necessary for turning on and off the genes.

It might have been under epigenetic "machinery", sure, but you need to explain what you think these were.

Federico wrote:Now, for a more daring leap of faith, I will call music "Food for the Soul".
As a learned person as you are, I'm sure you have already heard this aphorism. It was also used by Shakespeare, who once said: "If music is food for love, lets play on." Therefore, in order to better understand the interplay of genes and epigenetic mechanisms which can be modified by the environment, I will compare the brain to the gut (which, BTW, is considered as a brain equivalent), musical genes with their machinery to enzyme-producing enterocytes, and music to food such as lactose.

The idea that the brain is a gut is an over extended metaphor. They share some similarities but the researchers that claimed that were overstating their case.

Federico wrote:As I have written above, making music evolved from a rudimentary, life saving tool, to a more and more sophisticated and pleasure-giving talent.

As I explained this, this is an assumption you're making. We have little evidence that music abilities are evolved, we have even less that they are an adaptation.

Federico wrote:For this, the machinery had to evolve and become more attuned to environmental needs, which is what occurred in the Middle Ages when European Courts required and had much respect for Minstrels, many of whom were Jewish, since music-making and money-lending were the only activities they were allowed to do.
Thus, environmental pressure made for the selection of the best, perfect pitch, musicians, and the potential transmission to the offspring of this talent.

What you're suggesting is that there was a selection pressure for the best musicians, presumably because those that weren't the best would die, and those that weren't would continue on. However, firstly you're ignoring the fact that very few people in those times made a career out of being a musician, and those that weren't the best still had multiple children, and even if your idea was true, this would be an evolutionary effect and not an epigenetic effect.

There is absolutely nothing in the environment that you described that would produce epigenetic effects that resulted in the musicians being better players.

Federico wrote:Lets get back to the gut or little brain.
As a well read person, Mr.Samsa, I'm sure you have heard of the History of Lactase Deficiency.
Just to make a long story short, lactase is an enzyme made by enterocytes and which digests lactose, a milk sugar.
The gene for lactase and the regulating machinery appeared in prehistoric times by the usual evolutionary rules. However, at a certain point in time, sub-Sahara Africans lost the capacity to produce lactase, probably because milk had disappeared , and the machinery stopped operating. On the contrary, Northern Europeans were and still are blessed with large amounts of milk and milk produces, which they digest very well since their gut never stopped producing lactase.
Nowadays, many Africans and Afro-Americans still lack lactase and get sick if exposed to milk.

Indeed, and epigenetics played no role in the development of lactose intolerance.

Federico wrote:To conclude, music is food for the soul without which many people would find life much less enjoyable. To produce good music you need music neurones endowed with a well functioning machinery inherited from ancestors who were selected by environmental pressures for their musical proficiency.

Your wording is confusing, but yes, good musicians need the necessary biology and they need to be selected by environmental pressures. Epigenetics does not select traits in an environment though. If you think it does, then you've, again, misunderstood what it is.

Not to bring down the intellectual stratum to which this thread has climbed, but the claim that one's chief ancestor responded to a disembodied voice by slicing off the end of his dick ought to indicate that the Jewish culture/biology is as crazy and "stupidly designed" as all of the rest of the ancient culture/biology that we all represent as descendants. I vote for "not different".

pelfdaddy wrote:Not to bring down the intellectual stratum to which this thread has climbed, but the claim that one's chief ancestor responded to a disembodied voice by slicing off the end of his dick ought to indicate that the Jewish culture/biology is as crazy and "stupidly designed" as all of the rest of the ancient culture/biology that we all represent as descendants. I vote for "not different".

Which idea (among others) they stole from the Egyptians and then claimed came from the voices in their heads.

Federico wrote:

natselrox wrote:

Federico wrote:To produce good music you need music neurones endowed with a well functioning machinery inherited from ancestors who were selected by environmental pressures for their musical proficiency.

Robert Byers would be ashamed!

This is for your perusal, little boy, but I'm not sure you are able to understand.

WSU Researcher Featured on BBC ‘Horizon’ Program
Wednesday, Nov. 2, 2005

Michael Skinner, Center for Reproductive Biology, 509/335-1524, skinner@wsu.edu
Cherie Winner, WSU News Service, 509/335-4846, cwinner@wsu.edu
James Tinney, WSU News Service, 509/335-8055, jltinney@wsu.edu


PULLMAN, Wash. – Washington State University molecular biologist Michael K. Skinner is one of four scientists featured in the Nov. 3 episode of the BBC science program “Horizon.” The episode, titled “Ghost in the Gene,” explores the growing body of evidence that genes – DNA sequences – are not the only source of heritable traits.

Recent research shows that changes in small chemicals attached to the DNA can turn genes on or off, affecting a wide range of processes including normal development and susceptibility to disease. Such changes are called “epigenetic,” meaning “around the genes.” Over the past several years, epigenetic changes have been implicated in several kinds of leukemia and in the premature aging of cloned animals such as Dolly the sheep.

“I think this concept that epigenetics is going to play a really important role in biology is just now being appreciated,” Skinner said. “It probably is a big piece of the puzzle which we didn’t really have before.”

In a paper in the journal “Science” earlier this year, Skinner reported that environmental toxins can cause epigenetic changes in fetal rats that eventually are transmitted to the rats’ descendents. Such results show that epigenetic changes can be even more stable in a population than changes to the DNA itself, and raise the possibility that events in a person’s lifetime – such as exposure to toxins, stress or disease – could affect that person’s descendents several generations later.

According to program notes provided by the BBC, “Horizon explores the ghost world in your genes – the hidden layer of inheritance that lies in every cell of our body.” The statement says the show describes the findings, by Skinner and others, that “epigenetic ‘switches’ control the genes themselves, and that these switches can be turned on and off by environmental factors like nutrition and stress. [The program] reports the startling first evidence that this can cause heritable effects in humans.”
Skinner is a professor in the Department of Molecular Biosciences and Director of the Center for Reproductive Biology.

I have seen the documentary. But you are still not getting the point.

natselrox wrote:

Federico wrote:

natselrox wrote:



Robert Byers would be ashamed!

This is for your perusal, little boy, but I'm not sure you are able to understand.

WSU Researcher Featured on BBC ‘Horizon’ Program
Wednesday, Nov. 2, 2005

Michael Skinner, Center for Reproductive Biology, 509/335-1524, skinner@wsu.edu
Cherie Winner, WSU News Service, 509/335-4846, cwinner@wsu.edu
James Tinney, WSU News Service, 509/335-8055, jltinney@wsu.edu


PULLMAN, Wash. – Washington State University molecular biologist Michael K. Skinner is one of four scientists featured in the Nov. 3 episode of the BBC science program “Horizon.” The episode, titled “Ghost in the Gene,” explores the growing body of evidence that genes – DNA sequences – are not the only source of heritable traits.

Recent research shows that changes in small chemicals attached to the DNA can turn genes on or off, affecting a wide range of processes including normal development and susceptibility to disease. Such changes are called “epigenetic,” meaning “around the genes.” Over the past several years, epigenetic changes have been implicated in several kinds of leukemia and in the premature aging of cloned animals such as Dolly the sheep.

“I think this concept that epigenetics is going to play a really important role in biology is just now being appreciated,” Skinner said. “It probably is a big piece of the puzzle which we didn’t really have before.”

In a paper in the journal “Science” earlier this year, Skinner reported that environmental toxins can cause epigenetic changes in fetal rats that eventually are transmitted to the rats’ descendents. Such results show that epigenetic changes can be even more stable in a population than changes to the DNA itself, and raise the possibility that events in a person’s lifetime – such as exposure to toxins, stress or disease – could affect that person’s descendents several generations later.

According to program notes provided by the BBC, “Horizon explores the ghost world in your genes – the hidden layer of inheritance that lies in every cell of our body.” The statement says the show describes the findings, by Skinner and others, that “epigenetic ‘switches’ control the genes themselves, and that these switches can be turned on and off by environmental factors like nutrition and stress. [The program] reports the startling first evidence that this can cause heritable effects in humans.”
Skinner is a professor in the Department of Molecular Biosciences and Director of the Center for Reproductive Biology.

I have seen the documentary. But you are still not getting the point.

Don't you just love the condescension Dr Nats?

Zwaarddijk wrote:

Agrippina wrote:So I can safely use the 613?

Yeah, I bet Brain man just typoed.

Well no...im just happy to have forgotten how many there are and resisted the urge to google it. We used to get issued with a pocket size volume and expected to carry that round and do it all right. The Rabbi or teacher would give us great pep talks and have as all feeling great about being jewish and carrying out these rules. We would leave that cheder glowing with enthusiasm to be good jews.

Then you would go from cheder back to reality and after a couple of days the pep talk would wear off.. That means you could only carry out a fraction of the rules.. Just the main prayers etc..and feel like an underperformer. i did better than most, so had the privilege of being sent to manchester for the hardcore training with the orthodox. that was a culture shock But they are all overjoyed with their twin sinks and 24/7 rituals. Their enthusiasm for it is incredible.

pelfdaddy wrote:Not to bring down the intellectual stratum to which this thread has climbed, but the claim that one's chief ancestor responded to a disembodied voice by slicing off the end of his dick ought to indicate that the Jewish culture/biology is as crazy and "stupidly designed" as all of the rest of the ancient culture/biology that we all represent as descendants. I vote for "not different".

Its not a matter for vote. Jews are genetically different. Just google on it. Theres loads of medical evidence. This funded to deal with the problems of the different genetics though. Nobody is going to get grants to do genome analysis on whether jewish people are more skiled than others and what the genes are.Some of the recent results seem to say unique mutations in the schizoid spectrum for the jewish population had arisen, but i would need to pull that paper..As i cant be sure i have taken those results out of context.

All this data needs to be put integrated with the reasons why all these nervous, immune and mental disorder rates abound. i.e. With evolution of some types of fitness etc.. Thats what Cochrane attempted to do with his theory on ashkenazi iq. And i am guessing the data on mood disorder, OCD rates etc in Israel is the flipside of the high focus and creativity required from jews. The disorders are the side effect for a massive emphasis on particular skills.

Similar to the warrior genes in other populations. If you didn't have them you would have fallen (or been chopped up) by the wayside.. but if you have the stronger variant today you may be ripe for problems with alcohol, drugs etc to calm yourself down in todays mostly non violent world.

Brain man wrote:Its not a matter for vote. Jews are genetically different. Just google on it. Theres loads of medical evidence.

Yup, see for example a few pages back in this thread:


and:
The Matrilineal Ancestry of Ashkenazi Jewry: Portrait of a Recent Founder Event ...which strongly suggests that 40% of current Ashkenazi Jews (about 8,000,000 people) are descended from four women (who were not necessarily contemporary or geographically close).

Brain man wrote: This funded to deal with the problems of the different genetics though. Nobody is going to get grants to do genome analysis on whether jewish people are more skiled than others and what the genes are.

Yet some evidence is readily available:

NATURAL HISTORY OF ASHKENAZI INTELLIGENCE
This paper elaborates the hypothesis that the unique demography and sociology of Ashkenazim in medieval Europe selected for intelligence. Ashkenazi literacy, economic specialization, and closure to inward gene flow led to a social environment in which there was high fitness payoff to intelligence, specifically verbal and mathematical intelligence but not spatial ability. As with any regime of strong directional selection on a quantitative trait, genetic variants that were otherwise fitness reducing rose in frequency. In particular we propose that the well-known clusters of Ashkenazi genetic diseases, the sphingolipid cluster and the DNA repair cluster in particular, increase intelligence in heterozygotes. Other Ashkenazi disorders are known to increase intelligence. Although these disorders have been attributed to a bottleneck in Ashkenazi history and consequent genetic drift, there is no evidence of any bottleneck. Gene frequencies at a large number of autosomal loci show that if there was a bottleneck then subsequent gene flow from Europeans must have been very large, obliterating the effects of any bottleneck. The clustering of the disorders in only a few pathways and the presence at elevated frequency of more than one deleterious allele at many of them could not have been produced by drift. Instead these are signatures of strong and recent natural selection.
(Published Online June 17 2005)

There is more out there, available by googling...
.

Elena wrote:

Brain man wrote:Its not a matter for vote. Jews are genetically different. Just google on it. Theres loads of medical evidence.

Yup, see for example a few pages back in this thread:


and:
The Matrilineal Ancestry of Ashkenazi Jewry: Portrait of a Recent Founder Event ...which strongly suggests that 40% of current Ashkenazi Jews (about 8,000,000 people) are descended from four women (who were not necessarily contemporary or geographically close).

Brain man wrote: This funded to deal with the problems of the different genetics though. Nobody is going to get grants to do genome analysis on whether jewish people are more skiled than others and what the genes are.

Yet some evidence is readily available:

NATURAL HISTORY OF ASHKENAZI INTELLIGENCE
This paper elaborates the hypothesis that the unique demography and sociology of Ashkenazim in medieval Europe selected for intelligence. Ashkenazi literacy, economic specialization, and closure to inward gene flow led to a social environment in which there was high fitness payoff to intelligence, specifically verbal and mathematical intelligence but not spatial ability. As with any regime of strong directional selection on a quantitative trait, genetic variants that were otherwise fitness reducing rose in frequency. In particular we propose that the well-known clusters of Ashkenazi genetic diseases, the sphingolipid cluster and the DNA repair cluster in particular, increase intelligence in heterozygotes. Other Ashkenazi disorders are known to increase intelligence. Although these disorders have been attributed to a bottleneck in Ashkenazi history and consequent genetic drift, there is no evidence of any bottleneck. Gene frequencies at a large number of autosomal loci show that if there was a bottleneck then subsequent gene flow from Europeans must have been very large, obliterating the effects of any bottleneck. The clustering of the disorders in only a few pathways and the presence at elevated frequency of more than one deleterious allele at many of them could not have been produced by drift. Instead these are signatures of strong and recent natural selection.
(Published Online June 17 2005)

There is more out there, available by googling...
.

I wouldnt call that paper evidence. Its the initial stage in the development of a hypothesis. Although the cochrane work was interesting, it cant be funded or researched to a full degree as it breaches a lot of anti-race ethics in research. We created a database of all known information on ashkenazi and israeli jews, and then tried to understand it from a broader perspective. i.e. what is the upside to the very high degree of problems...i.e. We have expanded their work to include mood disorders as a modulator of creativity. General IQ and creativity are a good cocktail. This has not been published, again due to ethics.

The cochrane paper you cite in that economist article, was ripped to shreds. Intitally by mapping out the entire sphingolipid pathways using the most prominent works on neurolipids etc. Which is fine, as the bulk of lipid and associated enzymes, their functions etc are pretty much unravelled these days. There are problems with his theory. Well they are trying to integrate several theories at once, each which is not well proven, (such as immunity to lipid turnover) and they need more experts on board to take it further basically.

e.g. the sphingolipid pathway they point out also seems to direct itself into known mutations associated with Autism or Asperger spectum...rather than general IQ...but this does fit quite well with ashkenazi. There is a fair bit of high function AS in our family which seems to come from the ashkenazi side, if we trace who was more academically orientated.

Agrippina wrote:Don't you just love the condescension Dr Nats?

Absolutely, Aggie!

Dear Rational Skepticism,

The Larynx had to change to achieve word-producing capacity, and this is clearly restricted to humans.

Sincerely Yours,
Parrots, makaws, cockatoos, mynas, and crows

.....the show describes the findings, by Skinner and others, that “epigenetic ‘switches’ control the genes themselves, and that these switches can be turned on and off by environmental factors like nutrition and stress. [The program] reports the startling first evidence that this can cause heritable effects in humans.”

natselrox wrote:I have seen the documentary. But you are still not getting the point.

Well, natselrox, if you have seen the documentary as you say, either you were asleep when the paragraph I have enhanced was spoken or you didn't understand it.

Federico wrote:.....the show describes the findings, by Skinner and others, that “epigenetic ‘switches’ control the genes themselves, and that these switches can be turned on and off by environmental factors like nutrition and stress. [The program] reports the startling first evidence that this can cause heritable effects in humans.”

natselrox wrote:I have seen the documentary. But you are still not getting the point.

Well, natselrox, if you have seen the documentary as you say, either you were asleep when the paragraph I have enhanced was spoken or you didn't understand it.

Well, Skinner shows the epigenetic effects of a famine on the future generations. I can mention a few other cases which were not mentioned in the documentary, for example, the Dutch Railway Strike that led to a famine and had long lasting effects on the kids who were born to mothers pregnant during that time. The kids were more susceptible to obesity, diabetes etc. And all of these were due to epigenetic causes. The documentary mentions the effects of stress on the mothers pregnant during the 9/11 attacks and the effect on their children. The documentary then explains the mechanism of epigenetic inheritance. And I accept all of that.

But all of these do jack-all to support your claims of 'musical neurones' though.

pelfdaddy wrote:Dear Rational Skepticism,

The Larynx had to change to achieve word-producing capacity, and this is clearly restricted to humans.

Sincerely Yours,
Parrots, makaws, cockatoos, mynas, and crows