Well, Alan, FGM is illegal in Britain, whereas obviously male circumcision is not.

School personnel are trained to recognise any suspicious signs that it has or has about to happen and to report it to the authorities (rather than to intervene themselves as this might lead to family acting precipitously to take the girl out of the country).

It is, indeed, a cultural rather than a religious practice. There is nothing in the Qur'an that mentions this practice, c.f. the clear mention of circumcision in the bible as a sign of the covenant between Yahweh and the Israelites.

I thought this subject of circumcision in general deserves two threads: one for female and one for male, since, although the practices are both unnecessary and an insult to human dignity, if both were on the same thread it could degenerate into 'my mutilation is worse than your mutilation' argument (as happened on another forum).
Further I have decided to place these topics in the General Discussion section because these practices are not wholly related to religion - there are some are 'cultural' arguments to consider.

To kick-off on MGM, see this (not for the squeamish): Circumcision of a baby

Absolutely barbaric to do that to a healthy child, they had no actual time sound on the film for a good reason, you just know that baby would have been in distress

Regular examinations.
A prohibition on taking girls from cultures where this atrocity is performed out of the country.
Life in prison for anyone who performs FGM, or solicits that it be done.
Education, so that those from religious or cultural background where FGM is performed are left with no doubt that it is a crime in their new home.

Rollerlocked wrote:
A prohibition on taking girls from cultures where this atrocity is performed out of the country.

Practically and legally questionable.

Education, so that those from religious or cultural background where FGM is performed are left with no doubt that it is a crime in their new home.

The best weapon there is.

The laws are there in a number of countries where FGM is practiced, but it may difficult to enforce them. As long as people want to do it, they'll find a way. You could prosecute traditional practicioners, but you probably can't find them if the community supports them. So education, changing the attitudes, really is the key.

Something I read recently (last month):

Yes to female circumcision?

Is it a good idea to fight against female circumcision? Not neccesarily according to Sierra Leonean-American anthropologist Fuambai Ahmadu.

In an interview in Anthropology Today (available free as pdf here), she attacks Western feminists, media and anti-Female Genital Mutilation campaigns and accuses them for presenting a one-sided, ethnocentric picture of female circumcision. (...)

Rawnaeris wrote:
Apparently not where he grew up. He says that anyone who was different--for this argument not circumcised, would be teased mercilessly.

Solution: Move to a civilized country.

RichardPrins wrote:Something I read recently (last month):

Yes to female circumcision?

Is it a good idea to fight against female circumcision? Not neccesarily according to Sierra Leonean-American anthropologist Fuambai Ahmadu.

In an interview in Anthropology Today (available free as pdf here), she attacks Western feminists, media and anti-Female Genital Mutilation campaigns and accuses them for presenting a one-sided, ethnocentric picture of female circumcision. (...)

I suspected what the arguments would be, but had a look anyway, and all I can say is: bollocks. Her arguments are even weaker than I expected - she doesn't even play the "cultural identity" card.

What on earth does she mean by FGM not being irreversible? That you can grow a new clitoris if you so wish? Yes, a surgical reconstruction is sometimes possible, but how is that an excuse to perform FGM in the first place? This is just too stupid for words.

The uncircumcised clitoris and penis are considered homologous aesthetically and hygienically: Just as the male foreskin covers the head of the penis, the female foreskin covers the clitoral glans. Both, they argue, lead to build-up of smegma and bacteria in the layers of skin between the hood and glans. This accumulation is thought of as odorous, susceptible to infection and a nuisance to keep clean on a daily basis. Further, circumcised women point to the risks of painful clitoral adhesions that occur in girls and women who do not cleanse properly, and to the requirement of excision as a treatment for these extreme cases.

Great logic: to solve problems of hygene (which can be sometimes a bit painful) we extremely painfully hack off the clitoris and bingo, problem solved!

Why not just cut everybody's heads off and permanently solve their problem of having to think.

james1v wrote:
Yes, it may be women who are carrying it out on each other now, but, who invented it? Who demanded the first mutilation? Im betting it was not a woman!

Why? In some of these societies, women were actually quite powerful. There were "women societies" that basically controlled the politics of the tribe. If you wanted to join and be recognized as a women, you'd have to be circumcised as a "rite of passage". The same can be seen for more severe forms of male genital mutilation like subincision.

Alan B wrote:I thought the subject of circumcision in general deserves two threads: one for female and one for male, since, although the practices are both unnecessary and an insult to human dignity, if both were on the same thread it could degenerate into 'my mutilation is worse than your mutilation' argument (as happened on another forum).

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~rfrey/2 ... assage.htm

There are more severe and less severe forms of both male and female genital cutting.

Seems like I'm on a spouse bashing mission, ok bear with me...

AlohaChris wrote:I fought with my wife over this issue for our boys. I did my research and decided there was no good medical reason to circumcise and it violated the first tenet: Do No Harm. My wife wanted the boys circumcised for 'aesthetic' reasons. She thought uncircumcised penises were 'gross'. In the end, I was unwilling to die on that particular hill.

No offense to your good wife but I think that pretty horrific and selfish. So her personal opinion on aesthetics dictated what your sons genitals will look life (irreversibly) forever? Why didn't she just give them a little nose job and lipo for that baby fat while she was at it.

You can tell your wife that as an uncircumcised male, I've received lots of compliments on my penis, so there.

Rawnaeris wrote:It is not clear to me which of you won this argument, did your sons end up circumcised or not? My fiance and I occasionally go down this path, with the roles reversed. I've done more research on the topic, but he always holds with the so-called 'locker-room' argument, and not being male, I don't have a good response.

This is total bullshit, I don't know what backwater locker rooms your hubby may be going into, but I've been in plenty. I've seen more male genitalia than George Michael in a public washroom.

I've been playing team sports and been doing the whole showering/changing en masse, since about age 15 or 16 to present day, with more men than you can shake a willy at and I can tell you that no one gives two fucks. I don't even think I can positively identify any one teammates penis from a lineup as I never even take any notice (perhaps my own I don't know).

I mean no offense, my kindest regards to your husband's penis.

Valden wrote:

dylan wrote:Thank you for your thoughts. I was trying to find the news article and couldn't but I also remember reading about how circumcised men their rates of getting STD's is slightly lower. I can't remember how much but I remember it being VERY tiny. Still interesting though if it does lower it a bit.

Even if it did, it's not an argument in favor of mutilating a baby boy's penis. If an adult man is concerned about getting an STD or HIV, then he's more then welcome to have it done.

Ok putting child abuse/consent issues aside. We really have to look at the benefits of such a procedure. Even if studies did show that there is a minor benefit to contracting an STD, is the cost of preforming the procedures less than the cost of simply educating people about sex and STD's, or even subsidizing condoms? Of course it's not, it's just fucking moronic to think otherwise.

Yes a $1,000 procedure to provide a 0.01% reduction in STD's is worth mutilating a child irreversibly without their consent, but spending equal amounts to raise sexual disease awareness (thus leading to a far greater reduction) while simultaneously allowing said child to retain their entire body and not be mutilated without consent is simply not done. Sometimes society sickens me (ah fuck they do it almost every day).

Most of my friends here in Canada have been circumcised due to this fuckwitted mentality that crept in.

l like these series of depictions on the above linked page:

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~rfrey/i ... anda-2.jpg
Alkira-Kiuma Ceremony or the Tossing Ceremony of the Aranda Tribe (1904). At age twelve, the boy's first initiation ceremony, tossed and caught by various male relatives..

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~rfrey/i ... cision.jpg
Having already gone through the Ceremony of Circumcision some six weeks earlier, the Parra Ceremony of Subincision follows. Here are images of the subincision ceremony of the Warramunga Tribe near Alice Springs (1904; right).

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~rfrey/i ... aranda.jpg
Newly subincised men rubbing their blood on the backs of others, of the Aranda Tribe (1944).

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~rfrey/i ... ngaSub.jpg
The Kuntamara Ceremony or re-opening of the subincision. The urethra is being cut deeper by an elder with a sharp flake of stone to further strengthen the bonds of kinship. The Warramunga Tribe.

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~rfrey/i ... ocking.jpg
http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~rfrey/i ... ocking.jpg
Tooth Knocking-Out Ceremony, as an additional, optional initiation into the Rain Totem of the Aranda Tribe. The right upper incisor would be knocked out with a stone. The tooth is thrown toward the initiate's mother's Alcheringa birth place.


Fraternity Brothers, Miami

I think the issue here is clear: These are rites of passage and initiation. Going through these things makes sure you are part of the group.

First, looking similar is a sign of belonging to the same group.

Second, having gone through the same bad experience as all other group members enforces group cohesion: "We have all gone through the same things. Others haven't. They can't know what it means to be X".

Third: Mutual trust but also dependence is enforced. A group of boys getting drunk together and doing some pretty denigrating activities: I depend on X and he depends on me. I could expose X by telling what he did during that ceremony, but he could do the same with me, so we have to rely on another.

Fourth: Establishes hierarchy: It is always the older generation that executes power over the younger generations and shows it is boss.

Such mechanisms exist not only in tribes and fraternities, but also in the military and in all kinds of private clubs (e.g. sports clubs).

MANILA, Philippines — U.S. and Philippine military medical personnel are helping young men in the Philippines with a rite of passage: circumcision.

[...]

According to the release, Philippine boys are usually between 10 and 13 years old when they decide to have the circumcision.

[...]

but in most impoverished areas, a village elder usually performs the procedure with a razor blade and without any stitches, according to the release. Boys traditionally sit in a cold bath for two hours to numb themselves while chewing guava leaves for minimal anesthetic. The boys spit the leaves onto the open wound, hoping to heal themselves, according to the release.
[...]

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?sect ... icle=62338

I wonder what happened if US military medical personnel did the same for female genital cutting.

Circumcision-By-Bulk in the Balkans

In the southern Balkans, a small Muslim ethnic group maintains its collective identity by means of mass circumcision. Once every five years, villagers gather to ordain their boys. And to party for four straight days.

[...]

At last year's Sunet, 130 boys from 10 months to five years -- some brought from abroad -- were circumcised by 70 year old Zylfikar Shishko, a barber from the nearby town of Prizren who has been performing the role for the last 45 years. "It has been so long, that I don't even know the number of boys I've circumcised in the Prizren area, maybe 15,000 or 20,000 or more," he said last year while making the rounds from home to home, likewise speaking to the AFP.

[...]

For the sake of tradition, the boys don't receive anesthetic -- Shishko is accompanied by two assistants who hold the boy down -- but they are compensated with presents and attention from the villagers.

[...]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 88,00.html

Before: http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1329490,00.jpg

After: http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1329479,00.jpg

Just another example from a month ago:

German soldiers made to eat raw liver in initiation ceremony

[...] rite of passge for the mountain combat troops of the ‘Gebirgsjäger-Bataillons 233’ [...]

A participant of the ritual told BILD: “The procedure is voluntary and lasts for two hours: You have 100 minutes uphill jogging with a heavy rucksack and a 100 metre crawl through an ice cold mountain stream.

"At the end the pig’s liver is lying on a stone in the water, and then an onion is stuffed into your mouth.

[...]

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/bild-engli ... liver.html

Another data point:

Ireland is known as the Emerald Isle. Green is traditionally worn on St. Patrick's day to honor the Emerald Isle. Tradition holds that on that day, people who do not wear green are pinched as a reminder to wear green to honor the Emerald Isle.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_do_people ... ck%27s_Day

I'd say, this is a similar mechanism. Boys get nagged at if they are not circumcised in the States. People are pinched if they don't wear green on St. Patrick's Day in Ireland. Over here, in Germany, parents will be told to have their children baptised because "that's what you have to do" and will be nagged until they do so even by people that are themselves not really religious.

Rawnaeris wrote:
Apparently not where he grew up. He says that anyone who was different--for this argument not circumcised, would be teased mercilessly.

This has to be a joke. Where I grew up (and am growing up), commenting on another guy's dick is probably one of the gayest things you could do.

Perhaps times have changed.

Valden wrote:

dylan wrote:Thank you for your thoughts. I was trying to find the news article and couldn't but I also remember reading about how circumcised men their rates of getting STD's is slightly lower. I can't remember how much but I remember it being VERY tiny. Still interesting though if it does lower it a bit.

Even if it did, it's not an argument in favor of mutilating a baby boy's penis. If an adult man is concerned about getting an STD or HIV, then he's more then welcome to have it done.

Also, Europe has much lower rates of HIV than the US, as well as having much less male circumcision, showing that even if circumcision does help against HIV, there are much better ways of going about dealing with it.

Oh, and to people who say circumcised penises look better-

And to those who say this is a reason to actually circumcise children-