rcscwc wrote:

epepke wrote:

Shiv wrote:

Do you have a pair of eyes? If you do, then do you wait for some other person to prove their existence to you before you use it?

Study it, if you want to know what makes stuff so swell!

So, nothing about electricity, then.

I'm sure you're all glassy-eyed over how great it is, but you're the one making the claim for wonderful special greatness. As it turns out, that's what every adherent tries to do around here.

Christianity isn't a religion; it's a personal relationship with God!
Islam isn't a religion; it's the universal way of relating to God!


etc. and so forth and so on.

Let us see some evidence of these claims.

Evidence to which claims? Can you please be specific?

Evidence that people have said that, I suppose.

"Christianity isn't a religion, it's a personal relationship with Jesus"

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY[/youtube]

"Islam isn't a religion, it's a way of life"

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMCAY6o0Pkc[/youtube]

Well, that was easy.

Saim wrote:Evidence that people have said that, I suppose.

"Christianity isn't a religion, it's a personal relationship with Jesus"

"Islam isn't a religion, it's a way of life"

Well, that was easy.

Thanks for saving me the trouble. Probably not much point in saying it, though.

I am skeptical about this thread having anything definitive to say about Hindus. They will just get on with some fairly rational behaviour in other places.

Jacquitoo wrote:I am skeptical about this thread having anything definitive to say about Hindus. They will just get on with some fairly rational behaviour in other places.

Yes, like varnas - which even all the atheists of a hindu background I know defend as the best thing since the invention of the wheel. Even when it was they bringing the varnas up so there's no need for them to be defensive about it.

I guess the brahman hindus I know have been more sheepish about that aspect of their culture. The others admittedly, angry, hurt or disillusioned. I still thought Shiva was trying and got a rum deal ... he was not actually pushing the caste tradition. He was just trying to engage on what he thought was common ground. Skeptics might consider patience and respect a bit more. Put downs are just egoistic gratification and in this case possibly laced with cultural intolerance. Change does not happen overnight.

The main difference that I find between Hinduism and monotheistic religions is that it is much less organized. Sure the Hindus consider the Vedas and Bhagwad Gita to be a great source of knowledge and morality but hardly anyone bothers to read them. That is what annoys me the most. They keep professing that they are great books, but when I try to dig further and ask them what exactly is it that it that they find so appealing, I find that they haven't even read them. There is a certain sense of irrational cultural pride associated with it. The actual information that these books contain takes a back seat.
There are thousands of stories about different gods and no body really knows how they fit into the grand scheme of things, and nobody cares either. God may take different forms, and all these stories are but moral teachings. It's not uncommon for a hindu to pray to a allah or Jesus. This attitude also makes it very easy for them to buy into the spiritual mumbo jumbo. You'd find a lot of "gurus" exploit this behavior for some easy money.
Another aspect of Hinduism is the adherence to tradition. This is one of the reasons why plenty of social evils like the caste system, dowry etc persist in spite of several attempts at their abolition.

yes I accept a lot in your post r.c.

I realise there is a lot of cynicsm in Indian society as in all others. There are always problems in over-generalising and I thought it fair enough to allow some rational discussion of Hinduism on this site. In my undergrad course (25 years ago) we read Kakar's "The Inner World: A Psychoanalytic Study of Childhood and Society". It seems it is still well regarded, so I am not too out of date.

I just tried to look for it but must have thrown it out.

Cultural, national and personal pride can be blinding.

Jacquitoo wrote:I guess the brahman hindus I know have been more sheepish about that aspect of their culture. The others admittedly, angry, hurt or disillusioned. I still thought Shiva was trying and got a rum deal ... he was not actually pushing the caste tradition. He was just trying to engage on what he thought was common ground. Skeptics might consider patience and respect a bit more. Put downs are just egoistic gratification and in this case possibly laced with cultural intolerance. Change does not happen overnight.

My experience may have to do with the fact that all such Indian atheists I've met have a background in the kshatriya caste, and thus the culture does put them in a relatively good position. Had they been sudras I bet they'd been somewhat more inclined to take a somewhat dim view.

But you know, it's all natural and really justifiable: the sudras are like the feet and legs, the vaisyas are like the bowels, the kshatriya's like the chest and the brahmins are the head of the nation of India. If a piece that really belongs as a bit of the foot tries being the head or chest, how could that work out to the benefit of anyone? Etc.

Is it like that childish song; the toe bone is connected the foot bone, and then the shin bone, and then the knee etc. I dont want to be an apologist for Hinduism. Nor do I want to be overly simplistic and reduce cultural difference into a nonentity. Any believers can justify that themselves if they wish. I have no investment in that at all.

That book I mentioned is a text used in many university courses etc and touches on many aspects of Indian society and culture, including its massive bureaucracy ... which is Kafkaesque in my opinion. No I am not an apologist for Indians either.

Yesterday I just had a little boy making progress and talking to me about their goddess of music. I am his piano teacher. I try and see where I can connect before I reject.

He is of the new generation in a new country. I try and be open. Ask questions first, shoot later ... maybe

Zwaarddijk wrote:

Jacquitoo wrote:I guess the brahman hindus I know have been more sheepish about that aspect of their culture. The others admittedly, angry, hurt or disillusioned. I still thought Shiva was trying and got a rum deal ... he was not actually pushing the caste tradition. He was just trying to engage on what he thought was common ground. Skeptics might consider patience and respect a bit more. Put downs are just egoistic gratification and in this case possibly laced with cultural intolerance. Change does not happen overnight.

My experience may have to do with the fact that all such Indian atheists I've met have a background in the kshatriya caste, and thus the culture does put them in a relatively good position. Had they been sudras I bet they'd been somewhat more inclined to take a somewhat dim view.

But you know, it's all natural and really justifiable: the sudras are like the feet and legs, the vaisyas are like the bowels, the kshatriya's like the chest and the brahmins are the head of the nation of India. If a piece that really belongs as a bit of the foot tries being the head or chest, how could that work out to the benefit of anyone? Etc.

There is a burgeoning class of Indian rationalists from all backgrounds ( I am one of them ). Any form of discrimination based on caste is illegal in India. There is a big gap between what is legal and what is practiced. As I keep saying there are plenty of people who want to bring about a change, but the hurdles are just too big at the moment. The size of the population doesn't make it any easier.

Is it too late in this thread to place a bookmark?

(Looks like most of the action that could happen in this thread has already happened).

iamthereforeithink wrote:Is it too late in this thread to place a bookmark?

(Looks like most of the action that could happen in this thread has already happened).

LOL! Yeah. Seems like once I stopped responding in this thread, it died a quiet death. Reading this after a few years feels... embarrasing!

My own understanding and beliefs have undergone a lot of change. I probably wouldn't agree with some of the things I myself said. I was an eager beaver, getting badgered, wasn't I?

r.c wrote:...Sure the Hindus consider the Vedas and Bhagwad Gita to be a great source of knowledge and morality but hardly anyone bothers to read them. That is what annoys me the most. They keep professing that they are great books, but when I try to dig further and ask them what exactly is it that it that they find so appealing, I find that they haven't even read them. There is a certain sense of irrational cultural pride associated with it. The actual information that these books contain takes a back seat.

That is soo...ooo...oo true. Over several years, I have found that I am the only person who has read even a little bit of the stuff that we call "Hindu", and the rest of the people in my circles are blissfully ignorant. I have had several bad run-ins, where I had to correct them about facts, but it "hurt their pride". I was called a liar because I stated a fact which showed Hindus and their traditions in negative light. It is mostly pride without knowledge or reason.

the only thing i know about hindu-ism is
-Caste system.
-Beef is forbidden.
-infinite mini-Gods which will confuse the common man.etc

i would take a radical christian over a radical hindu any time.

No Hindu is indoctrinated. The ones who have come in contact with other cultures have always amalgamated. There are also those who try to project their philosophy on others by thrusting in tour hands literature and other pamphlets related to some Hindu beliefs. Hindus are afraid suicide squads of terrorist Islamic groups might overrun their country(India). There have been riots in India and now the Hindus find themselves better to cope with terrorists. India is secular to the extent that people still find the idea of nation more appealing than the parochial concerns of others.

i have eaten beef dipped in desi-chutney infront of my hindu friend.he didnt know