Ironclad wrote:

Scot Dutchy wrote:I have a feeling this is a fly by merchant.

I think you blew his brainz out back then, Scott.

Scot Dutchy wrote:

Ironclad wrote:

Scot Dutchy wrote:I have a feeling this is a fly by merchant.

I think you blew his brainz out back then, Scott.

That could be a mute point (brains I mean)

Shrunk wrote:

Scot Dutchy wrote:

Ironclad wrote:

I think you blew his brainz out back then, Scott.

That could be a mute point (brains I mean)

\

Careful with the personal insults, please. (Not to mention the spelling. We have no reason to believe musk cannot speak.)

Scot Dutchy wrote:Where is the insult in that?

The insult was in his post and it was no small one either.

Shrunk wrote:

Scot Dutchy wrote:Where is the insult in that?

The insult was in his post and it was no small one either.

His post was certainly insulting and deserved to be reported.

Your post, if I read it correctly, implied that he had no brains, which strikes me as an insult. Could be just me. I'm not making a formal report.

Shrunk wrote:

Musk wrote:Using pure logic and common sense, the fact that 1,5 billion people in the world are Muslims, tells you something. I am sure that if Mohammad didn't bring good things with Islam, there wouldn't be as many followers and the religion itself wouldn't be the fastest growing. There has to be something in it that attracts humans from the West, East, North and South.

It's a falsehood that Islam is the world's fasted growing religious belief. The fastest growing is actually "no religious belief."

Scot Dutchy wrote: It could be read many ways which was the intention.

Ironclad wrote:Islam is reportedly the "world's fastest growing religion".. by conversion. (non-religious 'conversion' unreported, apparently)

Email with question:

Sir, It is mentioned in one verse of the Quran that Allah is the Lord of two Easts and two Wests. How can you explain this verse of the Quran scientifically?

[55:17] Lord of the two easts and the two wests.

Reply

This ayat has been interpreted in various ways, the interpretation that is in harmony with scientific knowledge is that this verse refers to the two solstices, the summer solstice (21st June) and the winter solstice (21st of December).

These two astronomical points represent the shortest and longest days of the solar year and consequently the two rising points (east) and setting points (west) of the sun within the solar year when the location of the observer is closest or furthest away from the sun.

http://www.quran-islam.org/2_easts_and_ ... 43%29.html

A Conference On The Early History Of Islam And The Koran

by Ibn Warraq (May 2008)

Report On The Inarah Otzenhauzen[1] Conference On
“The Early History Of Islam And The Koran”
March 13-16, 2008
...

Here is a brief look at some of the papers:

Professor Johannes Thomas of the University of Paderborn[2] pointed out that our sources for the conquest of Spain by Muslims are quite late and unreliable. There are no Arabic inscriptions dating back to the Eighth Century and only six dating back to the Ninth. The earliest description of the conquest of North Africa and Spain written in Arabic was written by Ibn Abd al-Hakam, an Egyptian who had never been in Spain and who is said to have written the text in the middle of the 9th Century. As the Dutch Arabist Rienhard Dozy said this account has no more historical value than the fairy tales in "The Book of the Thousand Nights and One Night". But as Professor Thomas pointed out, al-Hakam is not an exception, all other Arabian reports and compilations give us the same fairy tales.

Leaning on the methodology established by Albrecht Noth, Thomas tries to sort out what really happened between the Eighth and Eleventh Century in Spain.

Professor Helmut Waldmann of TŸbingen gave a brief history of Zurvanism -a branch of Zoroastrianism that had the divinity Zurvan as its First Principle (primordial creator deity). In the second part of his talk, Waldmann gave a sketch of the influence of Zurvanism on Islam.

Filippo Rainieri described the Historic Roots of Sharia, while Geneviève Gobillot of the University of Lyons revealed the astonishing similarities of Koranic theology and the thought of Lactantius [died c.320] an early Christian author, a Latin-speaking native of North Africa, who taught rhetoric in various cities of the Eastern Roman Empire, ending in Constantinople. His Divinae Institutiones ("Divine Institutions"), an early example of a systematic presentation of Christian thought, was probably written between 303 and 311.

Christoph Heger, convinced of the validity of Christoph Luxenberg and Volker Popp's thesis that early documents, inscriptions and coins that contain the terms "muhammad" and " 'ali" should not be understood as proper names of the putatively historical figures of Islamic historiography but as honorific titles of Jesus Christ, argued that confirmation of the said thesis could be found in the old text of an inscription of a talisman in the possession of Tewfik Canaan.[3] The text of the talisman should be read as:

"O healer, O God! Help from God and near victory and good tiding of the believers! O praised one [muhammad], O merciful one, O benefactor. There is no young man like the high one [ 'ali] and no sword like the two-edged sword of the high one. O God, O living one, O eternal one, O Lord of majesty and honour, O merciful one, O compassionate one".

This text should be understood as an invocation of Jesus Christ- the healer, the good tiding, the praised, merciful and high one, the young hero, "out of the mouth [of whom] went a sharp two-edged sword" [Apoc. 1:16], namely “the word of God,” which is “sharper than any two-edged sword” [Hebrews 4:12].

Where Dr. Markus Gross discussed the Buddhist influence on Islam, Professor Kropp explained the Ethiopian elements in the Koran. Independent scholar, traveller, and numismatist Volker Popp argued that Islamic history as recounted by Islamic historians has a Biblical structure –the first four caliphs are clearly modelled on Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses. The Muslim historians transformed historical facts to fit a Biblical pattern. Popp also developed a fascinating thesis that Islamic historians had a propensity to turn nomen (gentile) (name of the gens or clan) into patronyms; a patronym being a component of a personal name based on the name of one's father. Thus Islamic historians had a tendency to take, for instance, Iranian names on inscriptions and turn them into Arabic-sounding names. Having turned Iranians into Arabs, the next step was to turn historical events connected with the original Iranians which had nothing to do with Islamic history into Islamic history. For example, Islamic history knows various so called Civil Wars. One of them was between Abd-al-Malik, his governor al-Hajjaj and the rival caliph in Mecca by the name of Abdallah Zubair. The evidence of inscriptions tells us that the name Zubayr is a misreading. The correct reading is ZNBYL. This was made into ZUBYL by the Arab historians. From ZUBYL they derived the name Zubair, which has no Semitic root. The real story is a fight between Abd al-Malik at Merv and the King of Kabulistan, who held the title ZNBYL. This took place between 60 and 75 Arab era in the East of the former Sassanian domains. The historians transferred this feud to Mecca and Jerusalem and then embedded the whole into the structure of a well known story from the Old Testament, the secession of Omri and his building the Temple of Samaria.

The paper delivered by Rainer Nabielek of Berlin provided evidence of a successful application of Luxenberg’s method not only to the Koran but to non-religious texts as well. This was convincingly shown by means of a hitherto unsolved medical term. This medical term can be traced back to Syriac in the same way as many Koranic expressions as demonstrated by Luxenberg. In addition to this Nabielek pointed in his paper to the hitherto overlooked phenomenon of the existence of loan syntax in classical Arabic. His contribution confirms the validity of Luxenberg’s method in general.

Keith Small compared the textual variants in the New Testament manuscripts and Koranic manuscripts. Dr. Elisabeth Puin gave a lucid, and highly original analysis of an early Koran manuscript from Sana, Yemen, [DAM 01-27.1] in part written over a palimpsest Koranic text. Dr. Elisabeth Puin summarized her findings and their implications,

“As for the scriptio superior, the comparison with the Standard text [Cairo 1924/25 Koran] shows that it still contains many differences in orthography and verse counting; there are even minor textual variants, like, for example, singular instead of plural, wa- instead of fa-, and so on. Some - but by far not all - of those differences were at a later stage corrected by erasure and /or amendments. We cannot suppose that all the differences are only due to the calligrapher's inattention, being simply spelling mistakes; there are too many of them on every page, and some of them are found repeatedly, not only in this manuscript but in others too. So we must conclude that at the stage when and in the region where the manuscript was written those variants were not felt to be mistakes but conformed to a specific writing tradition.”

Professor Van Reeth, already much impressed by Luxenberg's thesis and methodology, gave two talks at the conference. The shorter one compared the image of the pearl in four passages in the Koran that refer to a eucharistic prayer, and a parallel image found in the Eucharist of the Manichaeans. The longer talk discussed the similarities of the Islamic vision of the union of Muhammad with his God, and the commentary of Ephrem the Syrian on the union of the believer with God.

...

Dr Reynolds of the University of Notre Dame (U.S.A.) examined the meaning of the difficult term hanif, found in the Koran but clearly a non-Arabic word. It probably comes from the Syriac word hanpa, meaning pagan, but in the Koran it has a secondary Syriac meaning, of a clan (gens); ethnicity. In the Koran the term is almost always used in connection with Abraham, but in the sense of his ethnicity and never his religion.

Finally, Christoph Luxenberg himself gave an impressive talk that seemed to untie some difficult knots that several centuries of both Islamic and Western scholarship had been unable to undo. He gave an original explanation of the so-called mysterious letters with which some Surahs commence. At the beginning of twenty nine suras following the bismillah stands a letter, or a group of letters which are simply read as separate letters of the alphabet.[5] Luxenberg suggested that they all had something to do with Syriac liturgical traditions. For instance, the letter êŒd at the beginning of Surah 38 indicates the number 90, referring to Psalm 90, while the letters A L R to be found at the beginning of Surahs 10, 11, 12, 14, 15 are a Syriac abbreviation meaning “The Lord said to me.”

....

Clive Durdle wrote:Are we agreed that uncle mo did not exist? Mohammed means praised and the earliest examples of his alleged name are in xian contexts calling Christ "praised".

Oeditor wrote:

Clive Durdle wrote:Are we agreed that uncle mo did not exist? Mohammed means praised and the earliest examples of his alleged name are in xian contexts calling Christ "praised".

Well, if Prof. Muhammad Sven Kalisch thinks it's more likely than not that Mo didn't exist, then I think it's more likely than not that he's right. Since the Koran has to have been made up, that it was done as part of a political campaign seems as simple an explanation as any. What a bloody thing to inflict on people, though, especially with the extra crap that's been tacked onto it.

However, it has attracted praise as well as criticism, although it has been so poorly received by Muslims, that, in an attempt to at least superficially vindicate the traditional hagiographic historiography of early Islam and Muhammad, that a hoax has circulated since 2006, relating a supposed phone conversation the originator of the hoax had with Ms Crone, wherein she was claimed to have retracted the work

Oeditor wrote: He refers to an article in the New Statesman by Martin Bright, which I have yet to look for and apparently writes equally scathingly about Christianity and Judaism.
<snip>
I'll report later about Bright's article if I can find it.