Bible Contradictions?

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Re: Bible Contradictions?

#261  Postby Jerome Da Gnome » May 28, 2015 3:55 pm

scott1328 wrote:
The first five books of the bible, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy claim Moses as the author.


Deuteronomy 1:1

These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the wilderness east of the Jordan—that is, in the Arabah—opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab.

Not, 'These are the words *I*, Moses spoke to all Isreal ...'

What you are doing is taking false religious tradition instead of what the books actually say.


Eta: You are also not considering that some books were written by multiple people, such as Samuel, which is claimed to have been written by Samuel, Gad and Nathan.
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Re: Bible Contradictions?

#262  Postby scott1328 » May 28, 2015 4:44 pm

Jerome Da Gnome wrote:
scott1328 wrote:
The first five books of the bible, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy claim Moses as the author.


Deuteronomy 1:1

These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the wilderness east of the Jordan—that is, in the Arabah—opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab.

Not, 'These are the words *I*, Moses spoke to all Isreal ...'

What you are doing is taking false religious tradition instead of what the books actually say.


Eta: You are also not considering that some books were written by multiple people, such as Samuel, which is claimed to have been written by Samuel, Gad and Nathan.

"These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel" then means that Deutoronomy 24 records Moses speaking about the events of his own death. Still a contradiction, either he spoke the words in the subsequent verses or he didn't.
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Re: Bible Contradictions?

#263  Postby Jerome Da Gnome » May 28, 2015 4:52 pm

"These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel" means someone other than Moses wrote those words, someone else recorded what Moses said to the people, otherwise it would say 'These are the words I, Moses spoke to all Israel.
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Re: Bible Contradictions?

#264  Postby scott1328 » May 28, 2015 4:58 pm

Jerome Da Gnome wrote:"These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel" means someone other than Moses wrote those words, someone else recorded what Moses said to the people, otherwise it would say 'These are the words I, Moses spoke to all Israel.

scott1328 wrote:
"These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel" then means that Deutoronomy 24 records Moses speaking about the events of his own death. Still a contradiction, either he spoke the words in the subsequent verses or he didn't.
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Re: Bible Contradictions?

#265  Postby Jerome Da Gnome » May 28, 2015 5:03 pm

You do understand person X can write something down that person Y spoke, yes?
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Re: Bible Contradictions?

#266  Postby tolman » May 28, 2015 6:24 pm

I'm pretty sure that Scott is neither:

a) So fucking stupid that he thinks, whoever 'wrote the words down', the words regarding Moses' death and its aftermath could have been spoken by Moses.

b) Such a worthless dishonest timewaster that he would pretend to think that in order to annoy people.

No doubt someone could try and pretend that the Moses character was magically dictating from beyond the grave, but someone who wanted to pretend that could pretend he was magically physically writing a book from beyond the grave, since once people start pretending nonsense to try and defend other nonsense, there may be no obvious limits.
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Re: Bible Contradictions?

#267  Postby Jerome Da Gnome » May 28, 2015 7:05 pm

That's the thing, the argument's premise is based upon something not in evidence.

I guess once someone has used an argument for their position for such a long period of time, emotionally they can not give up said argument regardless new information.
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Re: Bible Contradictions?

#268  Postby monkeyboy » May 28, 2015 7:59 pm

So anyway, which of the descriptions of Saul's death is the correct one and which of the other three are the contradictions?

Contenders are 1) Saul himself by suicide, 2) God, 3) An Amalekite, 4) Some Philistines.

Or, have I fucked up my reading again and there is somehow no contradiction in the various descriptions of Saul's death? I await my education.
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Re: Bible Contradictions?

#269  Postby tolman » May 28, 2015 8:36 pm

Jerome Da Gnome wrote:That's the thing, the argument's premise is based upon something not in evidence.

I guess once someone has used an argument for their position for such a long period of time, emotionally they can not give up said argument regardless new information.

Presumably you're trying to make a bogus reference to atheists supposedly using contradictions in the bible as a justification for atheism?

I don't think any atheists I know would consider their lack of belief in gods threatened in the slightest by the bible somehow having been less-badly-written.

Now, I dare say some Christians may find the fact that the bible was badly written, poorly edited and contains inconsistencies tends to make them question assumptions they may have had of its 'divine perfection', and that may lead to some diminution in their faith.
But then that is largely a consequence of their having been miseducated into believing it is perfect and inspired by the One True God.
Realising it is not merely imperfect but that it is, in fact far worse in terms of consistency than almost anything which would qualify as a competent work of either fiction or history can have an understandably negative impact on a believer's faith, yet despite what some people may wish to pretend, there is no symmetric flipside to that with regard to atheists.
In the rational world, there's no particular reason to expect in advance that a supposed divine work should necessarily be especially poorly-written.
Were the Bible or any similar religious tome to [miraculously] come up to the standard of a typical competent modern novel or history book, that wouldn't be any 'evidence' for a god existing, it would simply be evidence of some amount of past human competence in writing or editing a book, which would hardly be an earth-shattering conclusion.

From an atheist's point of view, all manner of believers in one or more brand of religion seem to believe in books written by humans clearly no more informed than one would expect from humans of their time.
That one particular book is badly-written is of no real relevance to the issue of gods existing from the persepctive of someone who lacks the belief they do exist.
Given the clear incompatibilities between various brands, flavours and sects of religion, most such brands are clearly incorrect regarding many if not all of their claims regarding divinities, and to have one particular book show its expected origins in flawed human imagination is essentially a non-story.

The relevance of the flaws only really relates to pointing out to the subset of Christians who haven't yet realised or who are in denial that the claim of biblical perfection they may have been fed is simply untrue.
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Re: Bible Contradictions?

#270  Postby Jerome Da Gnome » May 28, 2015 9:04 pm

tolman wrote:
Jerome Da Gnome wrote:That's the thing, the argument's premise is based upon something not in evidence.

I guess once someone has used an argument for their position for such a long period of time, emotionally they can not give up said argument regardless new information.

Presumably you're trying to make a bogus reference to atheists supposedly using contradictions in the bible as a justification for atheism?


No, Scott is using a premise for his argument that is not support by the facts. I have made the deduction that this argument has won him some debates in the past based upon his contortions to keep the argument alive in spite of being shown the initial premise is false. His argument demands Moses wrote Deuteronomy, this is simply not a known fact.

I am not arguing for or against atheism, nor am I arguing for or against the bible. I am arguing in the academic sense the subject. The trouble is many here seem to be arguing exactly as your premise suggests, they are emotionally tied to an argument *because* in their minds it justifies atheism.

Regardless the subject, this is a common thing, holding onto a long held argument because it gives validity to some other belief system, no matter the subject, politics, religion, sports, whatever.
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Re: Bible Contradictions?

#271  Postby Jerome Da Gnome » May 28, 2015 9:08 pm

monkeyboy wrote:So anyway, which of the descriptions of Saul's death is the correct one and which of the other three are the contradictions?

Contenders are 1) Saul himself by suicide, 2) God, 3) An Amalekite, 4) Some Philistines.

Or, have I fucked up my reading again and there is somehow no contradiction in the various descriptions of Saul's death? I await my education.


Have you examined the context of the various accounts, like who said and wrote what under what circumstance?

Or rather, did you just hear about this some-wheres and are repeating that which you have little knowledge of?

Are you educated on the subject?
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Re: Bible Contradictions?

#272  Postby Fenrir » May 28, 2015 9:09 pm

Is there no end to the irony?
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Re: Bible Contradictions?

#273  Postby Jerome Da Gnome » May 28, 2015 9:11 pm

tolman wrote:
I don't think any atheists I know would consider their lack of belief in gods threatened in the slightest by the bible somehow having been less-badly-written.


Weird then that I have been sanctioned in this thread for another member calling me a troll ...

doth protest too much, methinks
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Re: Bible Contradictions?

#274  Postby scott1328 » May 28, 2015 9:13 pm

scott1328 wrote:
Jerome Da Gnome wrote:"These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel" means someone other than Moses wrote those words, someone else recorded what Moses said to the people, otherwise it would say 'These are the words I, Moses spoke to all Israel.

scott1328 wrote:
"These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel" then means that Deutoronomy 24 records Moses speaking about the events of his own death. Still a contradiction, either he spoke the words in the subsequent verses or he didn't.

Jerome Da Gnome wrote:No, Scott is using a premise for his argument that is not support by the facts. I have made the deduction that this argument has won him some debates in the past based upon his contortions to keep the argument alive in spite of being shown the initial premise is false. His argument demands Moses wrote Deuteronomy, this is simply not a known fact.

I will keep posting this until you read what I actually wrote.
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Re: Bible Contradictions?

#275  Postby Jerome Da Gnome » May 28, 2015 9:15 pm

Fenrir said there is no end to the irony.

According to the premise, I didn't write the above, Fenrir did. :scratch:
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Re: Bible Contradictions?

#276  Postby Rumraket » May 28, 2015 9:18 pm

Jerome Da Gnome wrote:
tolman wrote:
I don't think any atheists I know would consider their lack of belief in gods threatened in the slightest by the bible somehow having been less-badly-written.


Weird then that I have been sanctioned in this thread for another member calling me a troll ...

doth protest too much, methinks

Wut?

Can you try and explain the connection here?

You have been sanctioned "because another member called you a troll", because atheists are threatened by not-so-bad bibles? :crazy:
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Re: Bible Contradictions?

#277  Postby scott1328 » May 28, 2015 9:19 pm

Jerome Da Gnome wrote:Fenrir said there is no end to the irony.

According to the premise, I didn't write the above, Fenrir did. :scratch:


Why don't you paraphrase the following into your own words:

scott1328 wrote:
"These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel" then means that Deutoronomy 24 records Moses speaking about the events of his own death. Still a contradiction, either he spoke the words in the subsequent verses or he didn't.


This will tell us two things
1) If you can convey the meaning of my own words without distortion or misrepresentaton :tehe:
2) And how interested you are in honest discussion :rofl:
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Re: Bible Contradictions?

#278  Postby Jerome Da Gnome » May 28, 2015 9:23 pm

Scott, where does it say Moses wrote deuteronomy?
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Re: Bible Contradictions?

#279  Postby Jerome Da Gnome » May 28, 2015 9:26 pm

scott1328 wrote:
The first five books of the bible, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy claim Moses as the author.


Scott, where does it say Moses wrote Deuteronomy?


Now we will see who is arguing from an honest position.
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Re: Bible Contradictions?

#280  Postby scott1328 » May 28, 2015 9:28 pm

Jerome Da Gnome wrote:Scott, where does it say Moses wrote deuteronomy?


scott1328 wrote:Why don't you paraphrase the following into your own words:

scott1328 wrote:

"These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel" then means that Deutoronomy 24 records Moses speaking about the events of his own death. Still a contradiction, either he spoke the words in the subsequent verses or he didn't.



This will tell us two things
1) If you can convey the meaning of my own words without distortion or misrepresentaton :tehe:
2) And how interested you are in honest discussion :rofl:


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