Rachel Bronwyn wrote:I HAVEN’T COMMENTED ON YOUR CHILD OR ANY OF THEIR REMARKS. Why you’re applying everything I’ve said to your kid, I don’t know.

Because that was the topic of the thread! I'm aware you were talking about more general issues, but I was just trying to clarify where they do or don't apply to the issue at hand.

I am however very interested in the general issues. Maybe we need a new thread...

I absolutely think most children are subjectively aware of their gender identity and the rightness or wrongness of their bodies, predominently as a result of social constructions that are imposed on them from birth.

(My bold)

Firstly, what makes you think that? I've never heard small children say anything like that.

Secondly, if the awareness is the result of social constructions, how can it ever be said to be innate?

[I'm not saying transexualism is not innate - see previous posts about brain research. Just that if it is, the "gender identity" at the root of it is an abnomality or exception, not a variation upon something that non-trans children have too.]

Child A has a male body, likes to play with dolls and dress up, and grows up in an environment where nobody invents any spurious so-called "contradiction" between those things.

Child B has a male body, likes to play with dolls and dress up, and grows up in an environment where people insist that boys "don't do" those things, and as a boy he should like other things.

As a result, Child A gets on happily being a boy (or just "a kid"), while Child B forms the idea that he must really be a girl, even though there is no innate physical or psychological difference between them!

If this is how it works, if the forces that determine "expected" gender in the first place are purely external and arbitrary, then how can gender awareness of this kind possibly be innate? And surely the obvious answer to it is not to surgically change bodies, it's to change the social circumstances that lead people to believe in spurious connections or contradictions between sex, personality and interests in the first place?

Mononoke wrote:I get the feeling that this will not end well.

I'm cool with whatever people have to contribute. There was a misunderstanding about the general and the particular, that's all.

PFLAG: http://community.pflag.org/Page.aspx?pid=380

You're trying to develop your own theories. Stop it. No one goes through surgery because they played with dolls.

Paul1 wrote:
You're trying to develop your own theories. Stop it. No one goes through surgery because they played with dolls.

Unless those dolls are covered in sharp razors with nails through the eyes, spikes for teeth, and hair made of barbed wire.

Paul1 wrote:PFLAG: http://community.pflag.org/Page.aspx?pid=380

You're trying to develop your own theories. Stop it. No one goes through surgery because they played with dolls.

From that site (thanks BTW):

How are sexual orientation and gender identity determined?
No one knows exactly how sexual orientation and gender identity determined. However, experts agree that it is a complicated matter of genetics, biology, psychological and social factors. For most people, sexual orientation and gender identity are shaped at any early age. While research has not determined a cause, homosexuality and gender variance are not the result of any one factor like parenting or past experiences.

I'm "trying to develop my own theories", if you like, to supplement those that already exist because they are so incomplete and uncertain. Particularly WRT "gender identity" because I still haven't got a straight answer from anyone about what it actually is. As an educated thinking person I have as much right to contribute my 2p's worth, out of my own experience and analysis, to such areas of incomplete knowledge as anyone else. It would be different of course if I challenged a proven scientific fact for which there is clear evidence.

Incidentally perusing that site made me really think about HAJiME's point earlier - that bringing gay and transgender people under the same banner of "LGBT" is a bit wierd. The factors involved in the two are very different and the discourses that have arisen from them are, in some ways, opposite.

I've started a new topic here:

social-sciences/is-gender-real-t11660.html

to discuss gender and transgenderism in general, as I think it's a bit OT (or maybe OTT!) in relation to my son. Would be very interested in peoples' input there.

Thanks also for all the interesting and thoughtful perspectives on my situation here. My son's a great kid and I'm sure he'll grow into a fantastic adult whatever happens.

Beatsong, still the LGB and the T both aim for recognition and to be treated equally and free from discrimination. That's what unites us.

I guess it's frustrating that there are uncertainties surrounding gender theory, but you can't make informed decisions about something that has very little information. One should be especially careful developing a preliminary theory based on conflicting and biased data AND then proceeding to apply the theory to their child. It's better just to ask your child what his needs are as he knows better in this instance.

In the 1970s, it was just G. L's were picked upon.

Then in the early 1980s, it was LG or, as I remember, Lesbigay, which people liked because it sounded like "Let's be gay!" B's were picked upon.

Then, in the 1990s, it was LGB. Sometimes it was LGBQ, but there are a lot of heterosexual Q's, and it's OK to pick on them for revenge, I guess.

So now it's LGBT, and T's are still picked upon, but there's an effort to include them.

Occasionally you'll see LGBTQ.

I look forward to the day when it becomes LGBTQH, and all of this shit will be over.

I think you'll just have to go with the flow. He will of course have a hard time from other children who naturally spurn anything that they're not used to seeing, a defensive kick out at anything unfamiliar.

Have you read anything that Eddie Izzard has written or watched him speak about his cross dressing at a young age. Perhaps YouTube some of his interviews.

My little boy, who's nearly 4, has just requested he starts ballet lessons after watching a programme on telly. He was impressed by the dancers and is very keen. I won't hold him back but I'm sure he'll get some stick from future school friends.

Best of luck Beatsong and mini-Beatsong.

epepke wrote:In the 1970s, it was just G. L's were picked upon.

Then in the early 1980s, it was LG or, as I remember, Lesbigay, which people liked because it sounded like "Let's be gay!" B's were picked upon.

Then, in the 1990s, it was LGB. Sometimes it was LGBQ, but there are a lot of heterosexual Q's, and it's OK to pick on them for revenge, I guess.

So now it's LGBT, and T's are still picked upon, but there's an effort to include them.

Occasionally you'll see LGBTQ.

I look forward to the day when it becomes LGBTQH, and all of this shit will be over.

Or when they use up the whole alphabet and have to stop because they've run out of letters.

The next Eddie Izzard?

There is currently a documentary on Sky Three about transsexualism. It started at 9pm.

HAJiME wrote:There is currently a documentary on Sky Three about transsexualism. It started at 9pm.

Where Sky three when it is at home?

This may not be PC but this is my considered opinion. IMHO there is a great deal of misinformation in this thread already and there’s a real kid’s wellbeing at stake so I’m just going to wade on.

Like I said, If I were you Beatsong, I’d defo take him fishing (it's a piece of cake - just do 5 mins reading on the web, or maybe go out fishing with a skipper on a boat). You’ve got to be ready to kill the fish if it looks tasty is the main thing – bash its head on a rock or just leave it to drift away through suffocation. You eat meat right? Spend more time alone with your boy so he can see you are independently capable: you don’t have to catch any fish, just enjoy the freedom in the brave great outdoors.

Make sure he understands that boys aren’t crap, it’s just that girls mature faster around that age, and they smell nice . Maybe a good idea to come out from behind your wife's lead in everyday life a bit/lot more. Be an alpha male type for a few years – it might seem like hard work but you’ll get more used to it. You may lay down the rules and regulations but that kind of "confidence" is not perceived by the simple male monkey brain which respects and wishes to imitate/emulate overt dominant confidence.

RE transsexualism: physiological genital/gonadal intersex clarification therapy is not transsexualism and that distinction needs to be made clear. There’s nothing wrong with a bit of cross dressing, but IMO Transsexualism is always a mistake. Gender identity, and gender dysphoria, are purely the result of sexist gender role stereotypes in society and/or gender role model identity confusion. Ironically, there is nothing more sexist than transsexualism, because it says "girls think/act like A and boys think/act like B and that’s what matters so get under the knife or be a misfit forever".

Good luck and no worries. You seem quite skeptical and sound.

JasonX wrote:
RE transsexualism: physiological genital/gonadal intersex clarification therapy is not transsexualism and that distinction needs to be made clear. There’s nothing wrong with a bit of cross dressing, but IMO Transsexualism is always a mistake. Gender identity, and gender dysphoria, are purely the result of sexist gender role stereotypes in society and/or gender role model identity confusion. Ironically, there is nothing more sexist than transsexualism, because it says "girls think/act like A and boys think/act like B and that’s what matters so get under the knife or be a misfit forever".

How do you explain transsexuals who don't fit into gender stereotypes? Butch trans women and femme trans men exist just like with cis men and women.

I'm not transitioning because i'm confused or think that because I act like a guy I must change my body to look like one.

JasonX wrote:Like I said, If I were you Beatsong, I’d defo take him fishing

Yeah, definately gonna do that.

RE transsexualism...

Like I described I find it a hard idea to get my head around and am keen to understand more, although I think we need to be respectful and sensitive to other peoples' choices, which may involve factors that are hard for someone not in that position to understand.

However I do think it's a bit beyond the scope of my son's situation at this point. Here's the link again to the other thread I started on gender generally, if you're interested:

social-sciences/is-gender-real-t11660.html

I'm still trying to determine who actually said this, as I am not 100% sure that my attribution of this statement to Douglas Adams is correct, but it's the sort of statement he would probably have issued.

"People think that there are two genders, male and female. In reality, there are as many genders as there are humans on the planet".

I haven't read through all posts so apologies if it has been raised before.
I would say leave the choice to the kid? I would tell him that if he wears girl clothes at school etc that he will be made fun of sooner or later and probably quite in the open and frequent. Bullying I'm not sure but ridicule, pretty much.
Either he'll take the risk and is somewhat prepared to deal with such situations or he should adjusts his clothing style to match the one of boys.

I remember that in our school any clothing that wasn't visibly super expensive was being made fun of, so I can relate a little bit and know how they make you feel when you're not wearing the newest Nike shoes and stuff. As silly as it sounds, it can mean a lot at that age, then again this "factor" depends on the surroundings I guess.

I'd say the kid might not understand that not everybody is as open and understanding as his parents so it's

a) the unexpected "shock"
b) the following (persistent) ridicule

So prepare him and try to make it as clear as possible what it means
I think this would be a good approach to protect him, at least for one part.

LIFE wrote:
So prepare him and try to make it as clear as possible what it means
I think this would be a good approach to protect him, at least for one part.

I agree that this is the most important thing. If in truth, he is ridiculed for whatever his choices or way of being are, then the best defence is to be emotionally and psychologically prepared for this kind of thing.... this is even better, in my opinion, than being physically confident.

Beatsong, from your words, your son seems to be pretty sensitive & intelligent. If your family and friends back him up with whatever he does, and you encourage his self confidence, which you seem to be doing - then I'm sure he will be able to take on whatever comes his way. (As long as you prepare him, and teach him that kids can have judgements based on social 'norms' and upbringing). It would help to remind him that a lot of children are not brought up in the same environment that you and your family has brought him up in - that is, one of acceptance and non judgement.

As for your question that you have voiced several times - and that is, what really is gender identification? I sort of agree with you, that that sort of thing is tough to really tell -- Because... people are people, despite what your gender of birth says, and despite what our environment tells us what boys should do or what girls should do.

There really should be no limitations as to what a single person has interest in, despite what gender they are born with.

Some females love fishing, some males love art & design. So - certain designated past times cannot be an indication of what gender is.

As for sexual preference - I'm not quite sure if that can even be an indication of what gender preference you should be, either. Because, some men are just very attracted by the idea of another man - and it's not like they think that they should be a female. They just accept that they are a man that is attracted to another man. That's what I have seen from most of the gay men I know, at least. They don't want to change into females.

Maybe there is no answer to your question. Maybe the idea that there is some sort of gender personification is just an environmental influence. Just because you may be born with one or another form of genitalia - doesn't necessarily say anything.

I suppose that I am sort of biased, in that I like the idea of people being born whatever sex they are - and then deciding to accept from there, whether or not they are a female attracted to males, or a female attracted to females, or a male attracted to males, or a male attracted to a female.... despite what your genitalia says!

However, I have never been in the position of wanting to change my body because I feel that strongly about it. There are a minority of people that do feel that a sex change is necessary. In that circumstance, I am not one to judge, nor do I feel they are wrong for doing so, because I do not fully understand their position - so there is no way for me to apply my experience to what they are experiencing.


My sister, when she was growing up, said that she knew that she wanted to live her life with another female when she was 8 years old. She has always been very into sports, she is of a much larger build than myself - but she has still always been a female to me. I see her for just being a person who happens to enjoy whatever past times she likes, and to also enjoy being with another female. The fact that she was born a female doesn't really put any sort of pre conceived judgements on how she should be. To me, she is just a person, doing her thing. I suppose if she told me that she wanted to have a sex change surgery, I wouldn't be surprised - maybe it would be more comfortable to perform sex, in that case.


Beatsong, as for your son - it seems as though you are doing every thing right. You are not placing a label on him, you are simply allowing him to be. I think that is important. I don't think that you need to jump to conclusions - just be the good parent that you are, teach him, give him an environment that is not repressive of any ideas, and I think that's all that matters.

Also, maybe if he finds an area of interest that suits him, that doesn't involve sports & competition - but other interests, that involve other boys that feel the same way as him, like music or arts, than maybe he will have a better outlook on other boys.

I say just go with the flow - don't discourage him, don't encourage him, just let him think whatever he wants.