Someone who's quite well known in the LGBT community has provided this. The kind individual concerned has been interviewed by The Daily Telegraph of all papers about her transition, and she's pretty helpful as an activist with respect to advice. Her press interviews and other relevant material are here. She shows it's possible to make your way in the world and enjoy success regardless of what's going on hormonally or otherwise, if you have determination and the right knowledge.

Hey gang. I was referenced here from Rationalia whereas my feedback may be of some use since I am a transsexual myself.

First off, hats off to Beatsong...incredible open reaction, but this is Rational Skepticism, little wonder as we're largely Wesome people here.

What can be said...sounds like a lovely kid. Also by my intuition he's heading towards womanhood. I mean, com'on:

He's goes on about how "boys are crap" and "girls are better"

Good enough clue for me.

I became so happy post-transition, and was so heavily depressed pre-transition. My story is rather unique though and I won't retell it now. I'll just say I transformed 6 months ago against my parents wish, and yes that's me in the avatar. Things would've been a lot easier if I had loving understanding parents. Society was totally fine. In fact guys hit on me faster than I can reject them.

One of my regrets is that I suppressed it all my life and didn't start my transition earlier. I felt like I lost 23 years of my life! Although I didn't really lose them, I just experienced them in a way that felt far less comfortable to me.

And yes, you can love girls and still be a male-to-female. I've met male-to-female with pussies and male-to-female with cocks that love girls. I also met male-to-female with cocks and male to female with pussies that love just guys. I also met many bisexuals among them. All is fair in this fucked up shit we call life

Thanks Dory.

Dory wrote:Hey gang. I was referenced here from Rationalia whereas my feedback may be of some use since I am a transsexual myself.

First off, hats off to Beatsong...incredible open reaction, but this is Rational Skepticism, little wonder as we're largely Wesome people here.

What can be said...sounds like a lovely kid. Also by my intuition he's heading towards womanhood. I mean, com'on:

He's goes on about how "boys are crap" and "girls are better"

Good enough clue for me.

I'm not so sure.

This is a very recent thing, and I think a lot of it can be attributed to recent experiences. My son is extremely bright, a high achiever at school, but not very good at (or interested in) sport. He likes running around and having fun in a boyish kind of way, but his physical coordination is not very good so he's never got very good at sport and seen it as something to express himself through. Combined with the fact that I'm not a macho kind of dad and have not nurtured traditional macho stuff with him, I think his competencies and interests have just developed quite differently from those of most boys.

Then when we moved house, he went into a much smaller school than before, and found that he didn't happen to get on with most of the boys there, because all they were interested in was sport. (This had never been an issue in his previous school, where most of his friends were boys).

OTOH by simple accident of nature, virtually ALL of our own friends who have had kids have had girls rather than boys. So when we have people over who are more like us, he tends to end up playing with girls and, naturally, relating better to them.

I'm not denying that there could be something more innate to it than that, but so far I don't accept it as a given. In particular, I spent a lot of time yesterday following up links about child transexuals (many from this thread - thanks everyone). In most of the cases where the parents were completely convinced that the child simply "is" the other sex, it was because they'd been that way forever - practically their first words at age 2 or whatever, were "I'm actually a girl".

This is certainly not true in our case. He's never said anything like that until quite recently.

But one thing I'm wondering about, which you may be able to enlighten me about, is: What does it mean to know that one "is" a certain gender?

It seems to me that the certainty with which such knowledge is often expressed by transexuals runs contrary to a lot of the way gender has come to be described by feminists, gays and many others - as primarily a result of social conditioning. To say that my son "knows" he's a girl because he doesn't like sport, is surely perpetuating a very out-dated and silly idea that the liking of sport is somehow "biologically innate" in men? And even if a very young boy likes wearing dresses, so what? Surely if we say that "makes him" a girl, we are suggesting that there is some innate, biological link between girl-hood and wearing dresses? That's a ridiculous idea - girls wear dresses and boys don't because that is the entirely arbitrary norm of our society. Scotsman wear kilts; businesswomen wear trousers. Who cares?

I must admit for myself, I don't really understand what it means to "be" a man. I don't think being a man is a conscious part of my identity; I just am. The only respect in which I'm particularly aware of it is as a straight man - in that I think about shagging women all the time. But that's about my adult sexual impulse, which is irrelevant to a small child anyway. Since I don't really understand what it means to know that I "am" the gender that corresponds with my body, I can't understand what it means for someone to know that they are the opposite gender to their body.

Are ordinary young children particularly aware of being boys or girls? I don't think they are until their parents start choosing clothes for them and doing their hair.

Beatsong wrote:
Are ordinary young children particularly aware of being boys or girls? I don't think they are until their parents start choosing clothes for them and doing their hair.

My 3 yr old girl has just recently discovered the delights of dresses, hair brushing and cooing in the mirror, she positively trembles with emotion at Disney happy ever afters. The 5 yr old (also a girl) isn't bothered with all that faff, occasionally she likes a pretty dress or skirt but doesn't actively seek to wear them, bit like me as a child. I live in wellies and leggings and very rarely wear dresses or make up, and I'm more likely to wear a hood or hairbands then brush my hair Not sure where the youngests girliness has sprung from, although saying that - she might be wearing a dress and carrying a handbag but she'll still be climbing a tree with mud smeared down her front.

@Dory, I wondered where you'd got to! I hope you'll hang around.

Beatsong, I just happened to be watching an old Eddie Izzard programme today. I think he's less into the transvestitism now than he was, but with him it was all about the make-up, the high heels and the clothes, yet he was still very much a man.

Another programme that I saw recently, which might be worth watching with your son, is the episode of Ugly Betty where Justin goes off to his first day of high school and gets pretty much trounced for wearing his designer clothes (he doesn't get beaten up, they just pick on him and dump food on his clothes). I don't know if your son is too young for something like that, but what was wonderful about it was the fact that of course Justin is loved by his family for who he is, but it also shows the social realities, i.e. how other kids are likely to react. I.e. that it can be hard in the 'world out there'.

I'd just also like to reaffirm what others have been saying, i.e. that your son is very lucky to have the kind of parents he does.

Also, to listen to Scot Dutchy's experiences, which I know were quite hard for him, but much better when he accepted the reality of who he was. All the while keeping in mind (as you have been doing) that your son has his own unique identity.

Scot Dutchy wrote:Here is a couple of sites that can give good information.

http://www.gires.org.uk/index.php

http://www.depend.org.uk/links.html

I was exactly the same but being born in the '40's I was told to behave myself. I never really discovered my gender until I was 40+. I am 85% female in a man's body. I have to live with it as transgendering is not on at that age.
It is worth thinking about. I very happy to hear that you are very open about it and give him all the freedom he desires.

(I cant edit the first one but url is in quotes by accident)

I thought of you when I read the OP Scot

But one thing I'm wondering about, which you may be able to enlighten me about, is: What does it mean to know that one "is" a certain gender?

It's not always easy. You have to connect a lot of dots. Understand yourself. See your past, feel your present, foresee you future. You have to be very connected to yourself, social interaction, and be conscious of gender difference. It's not always easy to see. It's not always obvious, and it may not always be that great of a feeling that someone would fully want to transition. For instance, there are crossdressers who just like to dress up. There are these queengenders who constantly feel they're sometimes male, sometimes female, often blurring the line. It just reminds us that life is very very complex, like practically everything in life. Time will tell. Like you said, it's far too early to tell and he has more to his journey. I just hope he want get the feeling he's missed out on anything. Bottom line, as long as he's a happy kid, you got nothing to worry. If he's manic-depressive, crying about it, and can't stop thinking and talking about it every waking moment of the day, that might be your clue that it's time for action.

Beatsong, let me echo the response of others by saying I think your son is very fortunate to have a parent as loving and understanding as yourself. I'm not sure what advice I might offer. Although I struggled to make sense of my sexuality (still haven't properly sorted it out, actually), I never had a desire to be a girl or dress as a girl. So I can't relate there. But I can relate to feeling different, and knowing that I was not like others. The fact that you and your wife are loving and supportive means quite a lot.
Have you seen the film Ma Vie En Rose? It might be worth watching. Could generate discussion between you and your son. It might be interesting to see what he makes of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_vie_en_rose

A few more thoughts and opinions.

10 is certainly too young to be thinking about being gay or straight however many gays will say they knew their preference from an early age. Ironically if he does continue to dress, think and live as a girl as he grows up, then to continue to be attracted to girls would make him a lesbian! Most transsexuals who are attracted to men would not consider themselves to be gay, even though they may attend Gay Pride events.

I certainly remember thinking that girls were the pits at around that age, as he seems to with boys, but that all changed when I entered my teens as it may do for him. This is certainly an issue you will just have to let run it’s course and see what happens.

It is good that he can pass as a girl easily as that will keep him out of trouble with strangers but remember he still has to go through puberty until he is 15 or 16, when his body will change the most and he may not be as convincing later especially when his voice breaks. As for the school bullies, they will pick on anyone who is different so your son will certainly be in the frame if they find out. Time will soon pass though and he will be thinking about college which should be no problem. If he does get into problems just remind him that whatever they do to him is all about them and their mental failings not you sons. Of course many girls do self defence classes and it’s good for the mind as well.

For me it is about support but not necessarily encouragement. Of course buy him clothes when he needs them, boys and girls, but don’t make an issue of it either way. He still has a long way to go exploring his identity and sexuality and he may change his mind frequently. Indeed you may even find yourself asking him why you haven’t seen him dressed as a girl recently and his response may be that he has ‘finished with all that'. Treat it as natural behaviour and nothing remarkable, which is exactly what it is for him.

John

I find this thread extremely fascinating, and I thank everyone for sharing their stories.
As a queer and an ally I devour related stories and information, so I'm fortunate to have found such a lovely group of people to converse with on the net.

Dory wrote:Hey gang. I was referenced here from Rationalia whereas my feedback may be of some use since I am a transsexual myself.

First off, hats off to Beatsong...incredible open reaction, but this is Rational Skepticism, little wonder as we're largely Wesome people here.

What can be said...sounds like a lovely kid. Also by my intuition he's heading towards womanhood. I mean, com'on:

He's goes on about how "boys are crap" and "girls are better"

Good enough clue for me.

I became so happy post-transition, and was so heavily depressed pre-transition. My story is rather unique though and I won't retell it now. I'll just say I transformed 6 months ago against my parents wish, and yes that's me in the avatar. Things would've been a lot easier if I had loving understanding parents. Society was totally fine. In fact guys hit on me faster than I can reject them.

One of my regrets is that I suppressed it all my life and didn't start my transition earlier. I felt like I lost 23 years of my life! Although I didn't really lose them, I just experienced them in a way that felt far less comfortable to me.

And yes, you can love girls and still be a male-to-female. I've met male-to-female with pussies and male-to-female with cocks that love girls. I also met male-to-female with cocks and male to female with pussies that love just guys. I also met many bisexuals among them. All is fair in this fucked up shit we call life

Thanks for the input, and I hope you stick around these forums!

When I was that age, I liked to dress in skirts and dresses and blouses and long wigs. Even when I was in my 20s, I got one of those heavy skirts that they were selling for men at the time and wore it a fair amount.

Now, it's just a fact that I'm totally cisgendered and incredibly heterosexual. On the Kinsey scale, I'm about a negative 37, if not lower. This is not good or bad or even indifferent; it's just a fact that it's a process.

z8000783 wrote:A few more thoughts and opinions.

10 is certainly too young to be thinking about being gay or straight however many gays will say they knew their preference from an early age...

I didn't identify myself as gay when I was younger, and I still don't. I don't fit comfortably into that category. But I knew from a very early age, as early as I can remember actually, that I liked other boys in a way that was not the norm. I knew in swimming lessons, for instance, that I had to be careful not to let my eyes linger on the others in the changing room, lest I be found out. I was maybe eight at the time. And I knew I was never going to like girls the way I was supposed to like them.

Don't straight people know, even before puberty kicks in, that they are or are going to be attracted to the opposite gender

tattuchu wrote:

z8000783 wrote:A few more thoughts and opinions.

10 is certainly too young to be thinking about being gay or straight however many gays will say they knew their preference from an early age...

I didn't identify myself as gay when I was younger, and I still don't. I don't fit comfortably into that category. But I knew from a very early age, as early as I can remember actually, that I liked other boys in a way that was not the norm. I knew in swimming lessons, for instance, that I had to be careful not to let my eyes linger on the others in the changing room, lest I be found out. I was maybe eight at the time. And I knew I was never going to like girls the way I was supposed to like them.

Don't straight people know, even before puberty kicks in, that they are or are going to be attracted to the opposite gender

It's difficult to know if you really 'knew' when you were that young or if you were just doing what was expected of you. All round you, in real life, on TV, in magazines, there were men and women relationships, your parents, if you have both at home were male/female (remember it would have been the mid 70's, homosexuality would simply not have been a topic discussed in my household and never portrayed on prime time TV). Adults would tease about a boy friend being a boyfriend etc

When I hear about gay people having felt that they were attracted to the same sex at a young age may mean that I was really experiencing the same as a heterosexual but it's hard to tell

I think the earliest I can remember being definitely atrracted to girls was 2nd or 3rd grade (7-8). I didn't know i was heterosexual, I just knew what I liked.

Paula1 wrote:

It's difficult to know if you really 'knew' when you were that young or if you were just doing what was expected of you. All round you, in real life, on TV, in magazines, there were men and women relationships, your parents, if you have both at home were male/female (remember it would have been the mid 70's, homosexuality would simply not have been a topic discussed in my household and never portrayed on prime time TV). Adults would tease about a boy friend being a boyfriend etc

When I hear about gay people having felt that they were attracted to the same sex at a young age may mean that I was really experiencing the same as a heterosexual but it's hard to tell

Of course I wouldn't have known how to put it into words at a young age. But I knew I wasn't "normal." I knew what was expected of me was never going to happen. I remember my grandmother's boyfriend asking me when I was about 12 or 13, "So, do you like girls yet?" I told him no. Pretty firmly, no. It felt good to be honest, but I knew I wouldn't be able to get away with an answer like that for much longer without arousing suspicion. Indeed, he laughed my response off with, "Oh, you will. Pretty soon, you will." But I knew I wouldn't, that I never would. Not like I was meant to, leastways.

tattuchu wrote:

Paula1 wrote:

It's difficult to know if you really 'knew' when you were that young or if you were just doing what was expected of you. All round you, in real life, on TV, in magazines, there were men and women relationships, your parents, if you have both at home were male/female (remember it would have been the mid 70's, homosexuality would simply not have been a topic discussed in my household and never portrayed on prime time TV). Adults would tease about a boy friend being a boyfriend etc

When I hear about gay people having felt that they were attracted to the same sex at a young age may mean that I was really experiencing the same as a heterosexual but it's hard to tell

Of course I wouldn't have known how to put it into words at a young age. But I knew I wasn't "normal." I knew what was expected of me was never going to happen. I remember my grandmother's boyfriend asking me when I was about 12 or 13, "So, do you like girls yet?" I told him no. Pretty firmly, no. It felt good to be honest, but I knew I wouldn't be able to get away with an answer like that for much longer without arousing suspicion. Indeed, he laughed my response off with, "Oh, you will. Pretty soon, you will." But I knew I wouldn't, that I never would. Not like I was meant to, leastways.

I think what I was trying to say is that it may be easier to recognise that was how you felt because you were feeling differently to what was expected of you, if that makes sense

I think my sexuality has always been really weird. I can't even begin to explain it. I'm in a homosexual relationship, and I think I generally prefer guys. But I don't think, from a sexual perspective (as opposed to, a relationship overall perspective) think I don't really care what sex people are, but it's not the same as bisexuality - because I don't actively like both sexes... I just don't seem to... care? Which is especially odd, because it seems like other people "like that" aren't especially sexual in the first place, where as I think I am. If any of that makes any sense I'll be surprised.

But gender is not sexuality.

No offence to everyone, but questions about what age we started to feel attracted to the opposite sex at are rather a red herring. According to Dory's (extensive ) list, gender (both orginal and trans) can combine with sexuality in any one of many permutations.

The question is not at what age we started get hardons or wet panties, but at what age we "identified" as boys or girls. And the more I ponder this question, the more meaningless I think it is.

Apart from the simple biological reality of recognising that we have a penis or a vagina, what does it mean? People like different stuff. Some people like to wear dresses, some like to play with dolls, some like to race cars. If society carefully prepares a set list of things that half the population are "supposed" to like and the other half aren't, on some spurious assumption that they are connected with biological sex, then I'm sorry but that's society's problem.

So what are we left with, after we take that away? Feminist-leaning writers and academics have spent the best part of four decades patiently deconstructing all the things that are supposed to be "innate" to one gender or the other, and done a pretty good job of showing them all to be nothing but social conditioning.

Now what trans people seem to be saying is the direct opposite of that: that there IS something separate from both biology and social expectation that is gender "identification". The wierd thing about this is that transexuals are often grouped with gay people (eg in the term "LGBT") as the general category of people who "don't fit into, or are discriminated against by, society's strict interpretation of gender". But while the general trajectory of gay thinking has been to weaken gender stereotypes and to challenge the idea that they are innate, trans people seem to be saying that they are SO innate, definite and unavoidable that it's worth surgically changing physical biology to fit them.

This is what I don't get about the stories and videos I've seen of little children who, despite having male bodies, say they "just knew" that they were girls (or vice versa). Ordinary children don't know that! Generally speaking, they just "are". As some of the stories here testify, they like different things. In some cases those likes and dislikes might fit their gender sterotype 99%, in some cases 60% and in some cases 15%. But the fact that they even fit 99% doesn't mean that the person "IS" that stereotype, and the fact that Scot only fits 15% doesn't mean that he "IS" the opposite stereotype.

Like I said above my own experience is that I don't really understand what it means to "be" male, other than (a) having male physiology, and (b) being attracted to women. According to gay-friendly ways of thinking, the second part is not anything to do with it anyway, since a gay man is just as much male as I am. And according to trans-friendly ways of thinking, the first part isn't either, since one can "be" the opposite gender to one's biological sex.

So what is left once you take those two things away? Can anyone honestly tell me because I'm seeing a big hole with nothing in it...

Of course gender and sex are independent, I was just adding to the current path of discussion.

I've never understood why Trans is included in LGBT.

I remember a while ago seeing a TV documentary discussing transsexual brains to find a cause for transsexualism. I would imagine it has many causes, from environmental, to hormone, to something actually different physically in the brain.

This is from the wiki page on "etiology of transsexualism" and sounds like what I saw on this tv show...
"Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism by Luders et al. in Neuroimage. 2009 Mar 30. Quote: …Results revealed that regional gray matter variation in MTF transsexuals is more similar to the pattern found in men than in women. However, MTF transsexuals show a significantly larger volume of regional gray matter in the right putamen compared to men. These findings provide new evidence that transsexualism is associated with distinct cerebral pattern, which supports the assumption that brain anatomy plays a role in gender identity."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiology_of_transsexualism

That wiki page seems to have a lot of information about said subject, Beatsong.