Globe wrote:Spanking in anger teaches children that it's OK to lash out violently.
Spanking in a cool, calculated way teaches children that deliberate violence and revenge is OK.

Where does revenge come into it?

Warren Dew wrote:

Globe wrote:Spanking in anger teaches children that it's OK to lash out violently.
Spanking in a cool, calculated way teaches children that deliberate violence and revenge is OK.

Where does revenge come into it?

I know this won't go over very well, but (again) from the kid's point of view (who, after all, is the person the adult is trying to "teach a lesson to" or "discipline"), where does revenge NOT come into it?

Warren Dew wrote:

Globe wrote:Spanking in anger teaches children that it's OK to lash out violently.
Spanking in a cool, calculated way teaches children that deliberate violence and revenge is OK.

Where does revenge come into it?

The mention of revenge may be redundant, but Globe makes a good point.

thaesofereode wrote:I know this won't go over very well, but (again) from the kid's point of view (who, after all, is the person the adult is trying to "teach a lesson to" or "discipline"), where does revenge NOT come into it?

The kids I've met are usually smart enough to understand adults' real motivations. Granted they could be an unrepresentative sample.

Mac_Guffin wrote:The mention of revenge may be redundant, but Globe makes a good point.

I think if you leave the revenge out, it becomes a very different point. Few deny that there are circumstances where deliberate violence is okay.

I've got two girls 5 and almost 4. I've never spanked either of them and I never intend to. I don't think there is ever a good reason to spank a child.

starr wrote:I've got two girls 5 and almost 4. I've never spanked either of them and I never intend to. I don't think there is ever a good reason to spank a child.

starr wrote:I've got two girls 5 and almost 4. I've never spanked either of them and I never intend to. I don't think there is ever a good reason to spank a child.

Valden will probably think this is incredibly sexist, but when it comes right down to it, I've never met anyone who explicitly advocates spanking for girls - only for boys.

Spanking is not OK no matter what.
It's the actions of a defeated parent.

My son is now 19, and I have hit him ONCE in his life. And that was not as a punishment, but the traditional "slap in the face" to bring him out of a hysterical state where he was a danger to himself.
If it was called for I showed my displeasure, or even anger, in other ways. And that has worked as a charm, even though he is harder to reach than normal children.

I don't know anyone who use spanking, or even consider spanking. My brother and I were never spanked.
Spanking is banned by law here, and has been for decades. But we don't have more misbehaved children because of that.

Even though I wouldn't spank a child, I find it a bit strange that it is forbidden by law...

Globe wrote:Spanking is not OK no matter what.
It's the actions of a defeated parent.

My son is now 19, and I have hit him ONCE in his life. And that was not as a punishment, but the traditional "slap in the face" to bring him out of a hysterical state where he was a danger to himself.
If it was called for I showed my displeasure, or even anger, in other ways. And that has worked as a charm, even though he is harder to reach than normal children.

I don't know anyone who use spanking, or even consider spanking. My brother and I were never spanked.
Spanking is banned by law here, and has been for decades. But we don't have more misbehaved children because of that.

Gah, so much posturing in this thread.

While I have seen statements that it is never appropriate to spank a child (which I can agree with), whether intentionally or not, the OP did not mention "child."

I'm willing to give good odds that at least 1 in 5 people in this thread engage in consensual, adult spanking on a regular basis for fun. Since so many people here are from the UK, where it is possible to obtain Swish! magazine pretty much everywhere civilized, and was for two decades before pornography became legal, the number may be much higher.

epepke wrote:

Globe wrote:Spanking is not OK no matter what.
It's the actions of a defeated parent.

My son is now 19, and I have hit him ONCE in his life. And that was not as a punishment, but the traditional "slap in the face" to bring him out of a hysterical state where he was a danger to himself.
If it was called for I showed my displeasure, or even anger, in other ways. And that has worked as a charm, even though he is harder to reach than normal children.

I don't know anyone who use spanking, or even consider spanking. My brother and I were never spanked.
Spanking is banned by law here, and has been for decades. But we don't have more misbehaved children because of that.

Gah, so much posturing in this thread.

While I have seen statements that it is never appropriate to spank a child (which I can agree with), whether intentionally or not, the OP did not mention "child."

I'm willing to give good odds that at least 1 in 5 people in this thread engage in consensual, adult spanking on a regular basis for fun. Since so many people here are from the UK, where it is possible to obtain Swish! magazine pretty much everywhere civilized, and was for two decades before pornography became legal, the number may be much higher.

Talk about posturing.
This is a section called "Parenting" so it's pretty obvious, to most, that any spanking discussed in here, is spanking of children.

Consensual spanking between adults is light-years away from spanking children. And any discussion concerning that would probably go better in "Social Sciences & Humanities".

Globe wrote:Spanking is not OK no matter what.
It's the actions of a defeated parent.

My son is now 19, and I have hit him ONCE in his life. And that was not as a punishment, but the traditional "slap in the face" to bring him out of a hysterical state where he was a danger to himself.

Sounds like the actions of a defeated parent, to me.

Warren Dew wrote:

Globe wrote:Spanking is not OK no matter what.
It's the actions of a defeated parent.

My son is now 19, and I have hit him ONCE in his life. And that was not as a punishment, but the traditional "slap in the face" to bring him out of a hysterical state where he was a danger to himself.

Sounds like the actions of a defeated parent, to me.

Only if the parent was the cause of the hysterical situation.
In that case I would agree. Completely.

But kids can go into fits over things not related to their home-situation.
In my sons case it was bullying at school.
Add to that that he is not a "14 to the dozen"-kid. He has Aspergers, and is, as such, already an easy target for "normal" kids.
That that was the only time in 12 years of schooling that he went into hysterics is a blessing in itself.

My point was that ANY parent can be put in a situation where a smack is called for or even needed, but that it has no place in the day to day raising of children. Most parents, if they do not believe in spanking, can raise kids without ever raising a hand.

Globe wrote:This is a section called "Parenting" so it's pretty obvious, to most, that any spanking discussed in here, is spanking of children.

Actually, it's Parenting and Education.

Consensual spanking between adults is light-years away from spanking children. And any discussion concerning that would probably go better in "Social Sciences & Humanities".

OK. Is it? Is it so clear? Does every country on the planet have some sort of iron gate that automatically slams down at a particular time and separates the concepts so that they are so fucking clearly light-years apart?

I know a girl who started doing spanking for fun with her boyfriend when she was about 15. Since you're so smart, tell me what to make of that, based on a single word in a section. Is that "light-years away" from childhood spanking, or is it closer?

And now for something you probably don't want to think about. With respect to parents who do spank children "punitively," is there a possible sexual connection with the same underlying properties that also affect people who do BDSM, including spanking, discipline, and age play?

I'm sure you can come up with a one-word answer that will make everything clear.

Mantisdreamz wrote:Even though I wouldn't spank a child, I find it a bit strange that it is forbidden by law...

It's a law here in New Zealand now, and so far it seems to be working out well. The problem is that most people misunderstand what the law intends to do - it's not to throw parents who spank in prison, it's to eliminate the escape clause that is provided by the current laws of most countries that allow spanking. Since most places have a general law which states that you can use "reasonable force" (or something to that effect) to discipline your child, there have been numerous cases where 'obvious' child abusers have been allowed to go because they could demonstrate it was reasonable force.

One of the main cases brought forward as evidence when they were discussing the law change here was a case of a man who had beaten his child with a 2X4 - he was let off as his lawyer successfully argued that this problem child (who had stolen a car and crashed it or something) required a "reasonable force" consisting of a beating with a 2X4...

So the law was changed so that no physical assault of children is legal (whether it be major assault where a child is hospitalised, or minor assault where a red mark is left etc). However, this does not mean that spanking your children will get you thrown into prison or arrested. The police that arrive on the scene assess the situation and decide whether the child is healthy and uninjured (in which case they leave with no other consequences), or if they find a battered child then they take the abuser away and they have no way of escaping criminal charges.

In reality, absolutely nothing has changed with how parents can raise their kids (including spanking them if they so desire), the only thing that has changed is that real child abusers no longer have a loophole.

Perhaps more on topic, I have no real ethical issues with spanking children (assuming no permanent damage is done and the home is otherwise a healthy environment) but the only issue I have with it is from a technical perspective. I've studied and worked as a behavioral therapist, ranging from "normal" children to some very difficult developmentally disabled children, and in that field punishment is largely avoided due to a number of factors that make it so difficult to implement successfully. So if trained behavioral scientists have trouble successfully using punishment to change behavior, I seriously doubt old Mrs Bloggs down the road has mastered it to such a degree that she can give her children a quick slap and avoid all negative side effects.

This is where I digress into my utter dismay at the fact that parents require no education or training in order to raise a child, but I'll save that for another time...

epepke wrote:

Globe wrote:This is a section called "Parenting" so it's pretty obvious, to most, that any spanking discussed in here, is spanking of children.

Actually, it's Parenting and Education.

And just where does spanking between consensual adults fit in?
Neither in Parenting or in Education.

Consensual spanking between adults is light-years away from spanking children. And any discussion concerning that would probably go better in "Social Sciences & Humanities".

OK. Is it? Is it so clear? Does every country on the planet have some sort of iron gate that automatically slams down at a particular time and separates the concepts so that they are so fucking clearly light-years apart?

Yes it is that clear.
All but a handful of countries have an age of consent. And out of those an even smaller handful have an age of consent that is below the age of 14.

I know a girl who started doing spanking for fun with her boyfriend when she was about 15. Since you're so smart, tell me what to make of that, based on a single word in a section. Is that "light-years away" from childhood spanking, or is it closer?

If she is above the age of consent it's nobody's business but hers and her boyfriends.
And it's still not the same as if her parents smacked her about.

And now for something you probably don't want to think about. With respect to parents who do spank children "punitively," is there a possible sexual connection with the same underlying properties that also affect people who do BDSM, including spanking, discipline, and age play?

What make you think that I don't want to think about it?
I have no doubt that spanking gives a number of parents some sort of gratification.
Which is just one more reason to ban it completely.

I'm sure you can come up with a one-word answer that will make everything clear.

You are begging me to insult you. LOL.
Won't happen.

starr wrote:I've got two girls 5 and almost 4. I've never spanked either of them and I never intend to. I don't think there is ever a good reason to spank a child.

+1

My "kids" are now 27 and 22 and I never spanked either.

Mr.Samsa wrote:So the law was changed so that no physical assault of children is legal (whether it be major assault where a child is hospitalised, or minor assault where a red mark is left etc). However, this does not mean that spanking your children will get you thrown into prison or arrested. The police that arrive on the scene assess the situation and decide whether the child is healthy and uninjured (in which case they leave with no other consequences), or if they find a battered child then they take the abuser away and they have no way of escaping criminal charges.

If it's up to police discretion, the fact that they use restraint now does not mean they'll continue to use restraint ten years from now.

Globe wrote:My point was that ANY parent can be put in a situation where a smack is called for or even needed, but that it has no place in the day to day raising of children.

That appears to be a straw man. I haven't seen anyone advocate using it on a day to day basis.

Warren Dew wrote:

Globe wrote:My point was that ANY parent can be put in a situation where a smack is called for or even needed, but that it has no place in the day to day raising of children.

That appears to be a straw man. I haven't seen anyone advocate using it on a day to day basis.

I know of quite a few parents (non-scandinavian) who use it as a habitual punishment.
If you use it as a punishment for bad or wrong behaviour rather than other means, then it is a day to day basis.