Should it be considered abuse, or is it more complicated? Does it have any advantages over non-corporal discipline?... and should those advantages matter?

My feelings are very mixed. Although I wouldn't consider it as always being abuse, I can't come up with an answer when it should be done and why it is unacceptable. I have never spanked my kids, although I have been tempted to. I just can't justify causing them pain as a means to punish them for doing something wrong.

kids? who brought kids into this thread

Pauline wrote:kids? who brought kids into this thread

my thoughts exactly...

Silly me! I didn't notice that this was in the S&M forum.

I accept that there could be a hypothetical situation where it might be appropriate, but I can't say I've ever seen it. Like shouting at kids, it tends to be the far more common situation that the parents is angry. It might be understandable, but I don't see it as the example of good parenting that some like to claim it is.

I'm With Stupid wrote:I accept that there could be a hypothetical situation where it might be appropriate, but I can't say I've ever seen it. Like shouting at kids, it tends to be the far more common situation that the parents is angry. It might be understandable, but I don't see it as the example of good parenting that some like to claim it is.

I remember hearing a sermon at a friend's church years ago about spanking. The preacher talked about how you should and shouldn't do it, telling the parents not to do it in anger, but to calm down 1st and then spank them.

To me, that seems more sick than spanking out of anger. It seems very cold to hit a kid with no emotion... not saying that doing it out of anger is good.

In my experience, I've seen spanking work (very rarely), when done in a certain manner, but I think there are better alternatives that work just as well. Perhaps, some of them require a bit more effort, but if you can avoid resorting to such a simplistic means of discipline, you should do it at all costs.

Mac_Guffin wrote:

I'm With Stupid wrote:I accept that there could be a hypothetical situation where it might be appropriate, but I can't say I've ever seen it. Like shouting at kids, it tends to be the far more common situation that the parents is angry. It might be understandable, but I don't see it as the example of good parenting that some like to claim it is.

I remember hearing a sermon at a friend's church years ago about spanking. The preacher talked about how you should and shouldn't do it, telling the parents not to do it in anger, but to calm down 1st and then spank them.

To me, that seems more sick than spanking out of anger. It seems very cold to hit a kid with no emotion... not saying that doing it out of anger is good.

In my experience, I've seen spanking work (very rarely), when done in a certain manner, but I think there are better alternatives that work just as well. Perhaps, some of them require a bit more effort, but if you can avoid resorting to such a simplistic means of discipline, you should do it at all costs.

Completely agree.

I've also been told by a few Pro-Spankers that spanking is "not supposed to actually hurt."

When I asked them what the point in doing it in the first place if it was not support to hurt then, and that there are other non-painful ways to discipline a child, they just rambled.

I can't help but think those that spank just do it because it's quick and easy, and because children are defenseless, they can't really defend themselves against their own parents. They're pretty much taught not to, and that they have no choice. They are easy targets.

Any other sort of discipline takes a bit more thought and effort.

Valden wrote:

Mac_Guffin wrote:

I'm With Stupid wrote:I accept that there could be a hypothetical situation where it might be appropriate, but I can't say I've ever seen it. Like shouting at kids, it tends to be the far more common situation that the parents is angry. It might be understandable, but I don't see it as the example of good parenting that some like to claim it is.

I remember hearing a sermon at a friend's church years ago about spanking. The preacher talked about how you should and shouldn't do it, telling the parents not to do it in anger, but to calm down 1st and then spank them.

To me, that seems more sick than spanking out of anger. It seems very cold to hit a kid with no emotion... not saying that doing it out of anger is good.

In my experience, I've seen spanking work (very rarely), when done in a certain manner, but I think there are better alternatives that work just as well. Perhaps, some of them require a bit more effort, but if you can avoid resorting to such a simplistic means of discipline, you should do it at all costs.

Completely agree.

I've also been told by a few Pro-Spankers that spanking is "not supposed to actually hurt."

When I asked them what the point in doing it in the first place if it was not support to hurt then, and that there are other non-painful ways to discipline a child, they just rambled.

I can't help but think those that spank just do it because it's quick and easy, and because children are defenseless, they can't really defend themselves against their own parents. They're pretty much taught not to, and that they have no choice. They are easy targets.

Any other sort of discipline takes a bit more thought and effort.

Either that, or they follow some sort of conservatism, whether it be religion or some archaic philosophy.
I knew quite a few parents who spanked without anger and were very patient with their children... but they were taught to spank and never questioned it.

I was spanked as a child, but my father was also abusive, so I can't be very objective. I see the spanking as part of his abuse, I can't really separate it.
All I know is, as far as I'm concerned, if you can't discipline your child without effectively using physical violence, you're not a very good parent from my opinion.

idk...it did put the fear of god in me, much respect.

mmmcheezy wrote:I was spanked as a child, but my father was also abusive, so I can't be very objective. I see the spanking as part of his abuse, I can't really separate it.
All I know is, as far as I'm concerned, if you can't discipline your child without effectively using physical violence, you're not a very good parent from my opinion.

Well, my parents weren't abusive (depending on how you define the term), but there were some rare occurrences when they spanked or slapped... usually out of fear (like a time I ran out to the street without looking) or impatient.

In my situation, I see it more as a flaw in their parenting, but not necessarily abuse.

I was rarely spanked as a kid, and I did spank my daughter at least once, and it was on the table as an option. The point was not to inflict pain as to get her attention. It really pissed me off I had to do it, and it was all drama and emotion and very little spank, but it seemed like the right thing to do at the time and I was the good parent versus the missus who got to play bad parent and she never spanked, just yelled a lot. I can't for the life of me remember what the spanking issue was.

Looking back on it I think I failed as she grew up to like doing naughty stuff. Kids would imagine some harebrained idea and she was the one who was willing to follow through. I sorta wonder if we (my wife and I) put ourselves in too active a role in her self control - she relied on authority to actually protect her from herself.

But she was a great kid who has grown up to be remarkably sensitive to others. I am really proud of her.

I posted about this on RDF a while ago. Do we have search access to that archive?

My summary position is that I see no value and potential harm in the habit.

Personally, I consider spanking as something that only should be done between consenting adults. Children should not be involved.

My dad spanked me once, very gently - and then I had to console the poor old sod, as he'd broken down in tears.

I spanked my kids once, and it was definitely a "Hall of Shame" moment. They were pretty young and hitting each other, and normal techniques (words, separation) didn't work in this particular intense physical tussle. In just a few seconds, I was so angry at their completely abnormal violence toward each other, I hit both of their legs (at the same time) three times as I said, "We [hit] do not hit [hit] in this house. [hit]" It was so crazy that I HIT them as I said that we DON'T hit, and of course we were all so stunned (since I didn't spank), that we all just stopped instantly.


Then of course I had to apologize for hitting them and of course we all talked about violence leading to more violence and blah - blah - blah.

My kids liked to say as they grew older that they wished I DID spank, it would be over in a second, but instead I always TALK to them about their behavior, and that could go on for a while....There was a bit of truth in that, but I don't really think they REALLY would have preferred a mom who spanks!

Anyway, yeah, not a good parenting technique. Had to forgive myself and go on, being the best parent I could be...

cathyincali wrote:I spanked my kids once, and it was definitely a "Hall of Shame" moment. They were pretty young and hitting each other, and normal techniques (words, separation) didn't work in this particular intense physical tussle. In just a few seconds, I was so angry at their completely abnormal violence toward each other, I hit both of their legs (at the same time) three times as I said, "We [hit] do not hit [hit] in this house. [hit]" It was so crazy that I HIT them as I said that we DON'T hit, and of course we were all so stunned (since I didn't spank), that we all just stopped instantly.


Then of course I had to apologize for hitting them and of course we all talked about violence leading to more violence and blah - blah - blah.

My kids liked to say as they grew older that they wished I DID spank, it would be over in a second, but instead I always TALK to them about their behavior, and that could go on for a while....There was a bit of truth in that, but I don't really think they REALLY would have preferred a mom who spanks!

Anyway, yeah, not a good parenting technique. Had to forgive myself and go on, being the best parent I could be...

That reminds me of the high school here. They give you a choice between being paddled or going to ISSP (some euphemism for detention ). Most people I knew chose the paddle... It kind of says something about the effectiveness of the punishment.

Laying your hands on an adult is assault.
Laying your hands on a child is discipline.
Ridiculous.

Discipline is not a beating. The only times I've ever hit any child, it was one single slap to establish beyond all reasonable doubt that I can hit a lot harder than they can, and listening to me is wise. I can't say I like it, but I'd rather rely on coarse intimidation than trying to work with warnings and the naughty step, while my possessions, or worse, someone else is being hurt. It's an emergency measure, not a punishment, and certainly I wouldn't forgive myself if I ever did it without restraint.

I don't see any point in using a ritualistic carefully counted out set of slaps to the behind, though. All that ever taught me was that my father was a non-verbal brute who tried to control the world through hurting it back harder.

The way I see it, there's a whole spectrum of using force against children. From the quick slap to interrupt a frenzy, through the "measured" or "proportionate" beatings, and beating kids black and blue, because using the rod that much shows you really love them.

I'm unwillingly on the quick slap side, on the very edge of no violence at all. One big relief, is that when I explain that I only hit them because they started with violence, and won't hit them if they're not hitting anyone or intentionally breaking what's not theirs, I never ever need it again with the same kid. I don't really need to add anything to their shock at realizing violence is less fun when you're on the receiving end.

Now if only they stopped making new ones, or at least treated them better... It seems a lot of my relatives are proud of the mistakes of our ancestors, and eager to repeat them with great diligence.

Yeah I've heard of the concept of doing to the child whatever they're doing to someone else in order to show them that it hurts. I'm not sure how good a parenting technique it is though.