purplerat wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

purplerat wrote:I thought that occurred to me is that Tyrion's decision was fairly calculated. Both in standing by Dany and turning on Vary's. If Dany were taken out of the game prior to the attack on Kings Landing what would have happened? Would Jon and his coalition of the north, maybe including Dany's forces or maybe not, give up and leave Cersei to rule? Probably not. There would have been a bloody battle or maybe a long siege followed by a battle or something like that. Many people including many innocents were going to die.

Would that have been better or worse than what ultimately did happen? That's hard to say. The war could very well have gone on for years costing hundreds of thousands of lives. The best chance to avoid as much bloodshed as possible was Dany using her last dragon to end the war quickly with no more than the necessary casualties - basically the Iron Fleet and Golden Company. And they basically did achieve that until Dany either went mad or decided she needed rule with fear.

It's similar to the US decision to use nukes to end WWII. It was a horrific thing to have happened but there's an argument to be made that it was the least worst decision.

Your entire argument hinges on Tyrion assuming, without evidence, that Varys would try to kill Dany before the battle, rather than, for example, get John to usurp her authority.

[spoiler]But if Jon usurped her authority before the battle - which is what Tyrion and Varys appeared to be discussing in the previous episode - that would take the dragon out of the equation. You'd still be left we the prospect of a prolonged siege/battle that might kill hundreds of thousands.

Fallible wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

Animavore wrote:I don't buy the Varys assassination theory at all.

Not sure I do either, my interpetation of that scene was that Varys simply had is little bird keeping an eye on Dany's moves.

Then the part of the conversation where the little bird says Danny hasn’t eaten anything and Varys replies “we’ll try again at supper” doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

Fallible wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

Animavore wrote:I don't buy the Varys assassination theory at all.

Not sure I do either, my interpetation of that scene was that Varys simply had is little bird keeping an eye on Dany's moves.

Then the part of the conversation where the little bird says Danny hasn’t eaten anything and Varys replies “we’ll try again at supper” doesn’t make a lot of sense.

I don't remember the bolded bit so that might make the case, but reporting on Dany's earting habits itself does not necesssarily entail a plan to poison her.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

purplerat wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

purplerat wrote:I thought that occurred to me is that Tyrion's decision was fairly calculated. Both in standing by Dany and turning on Vary's. If Dany were taken out of the game prior to the attack on Kings Landing what would have happened? Would Jon and his coalition of the north, maybe including Dany's forces or maybe not, give up and leave Cersei to rule? Probably not. There would have been a bloody battle or maybe a long siege followed by a battle or something like that. Many people including many innocents were going to die.

Would that have been better or worse than what ultimately did happen? That's hard to say. The war could very well have gone on for years costing hundreds of thousands of lives. The best chance to avoid as much bloodshed as possible was Dany using her last dragon to end the war quickly with no more than the necessary casualties - basically the Iron Fleet and Golden Company. And they basically did achieve that until Dany either went mad or decided she needed rule with fear.

It's similar to the US decision to use nukes to end WWII. It was a horrific thing to have happened but there's an argument to be made that it was the least worst decision.

Your entire argument hinges on Tyrion assuming, without evidence, that Varys would try to kill Dany before the battle, rather than, for example, get John to usurp her authority.

But if Jon usurped her authority before the battle - which is what Tyrion and Varys appeared to be discussing in the previous episode - that would take the dragon out of the equation. You'd still be left we the prospect of a prolonged siege/battle that might kill hundreds of thousands.

That would not be enough imo to convince Tyrion to sacrifice Varys.

Shrunk wrote:I'm surprised there has not been more discussion, here and elsewhere, of Grey Worm's role in the genocide, which is almost as pivotal as Dany's. In a way, that about-face was less foreseeable. But in other ways, completely predictable. The message I took from this episode (which I thought, even taking the flaws into account, were some of the finest 80 min of TV I have ever seen) is that Dany and her army killed thousands of innocent people, because that is what rulers and their armies do. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Daenerys Targaryen or Barack Obama.

Shrunk wrote:I'm surprised there has not been more discussion, here and elsewhere, of Grey Worm's role in the genocide, which is almost as pivotal as Dany's. In a way, that about-face was less foreseeable. But in other ways, completely predictable. The message I took from this episode (which I thought, even taking the flaws into account, were some of the finest 80 min of TV I have ever seen) is that Dany and her army killed thousands of innocent people, because that is what rulers and their armies do. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Daenerys Targaryen or Barack Obama.

Shrunk wrote:I'm surprised there has not been more discussion, here and elsewhere, of Grey Worm's role in the genocide, which is almost as pivotal as Dany's. In a way, that about-face was less foreseeable. But in other ways, completely predictable. The message I took from this episode (which I thought, even taking the flaws into account, were some of the finest 80 min of TV I have ever seen) is that Dany and her army killed thousands of innocent people, because that is what rulers and their armies do. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Daenerys Targaryen or Barack Obama.

purplerat wrote:

Shrunk wrote:I'm surprised there has not been more discussion, here and elsewhere, of Grey Worm's role in the genocide, which is almost as pivotal as Dany's. In a way, that about-face was less foreseeable. But in other ways, completely predictable. The message I took from this episode (which I thought, even taking the flaws into account, were some of the finest 80 min of TV I have ever seen) is that Dany and her army killed thousands of innocent people, because that is what rulers and their armies do. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Daenerys Targaryen or Barack Obama.

Grey Worm's role was definitely very big in the slaughter. He knew Dany had agreed to allow a surrender yet he goes against that which is the antithesis of what the Unsullied are all about. They are supposed to be committed to a fault to follow chain of command and orders. We even see that earlier in the episode when Tyrion uses that trait to free Jamie. The guards know what Dany wants but having not received an order directly from her Tyrion is able to pull rank to get passed them. So even if Grey Worm believed that Dany would have wanted them to ignore the surrender those weren't his orders. It was a huge moment in his story for him to do so and in such a violent and disturbing manner. I hope it doesn't get ignored in the finale.

scott1328 wrote:

purplerat wrote:

Shrunk wrote:I'm surprised there has not been more discussion, here and elsewhere, of Grey Worm's role in the genocide, which is almost as pivotal as Dany's. In a way, that about-face was less foreseeable. But in other ways, completely predictable. The message I took from this episode (which I thought, even taking the flaws into account, were some of the finest 80 min of TV I have ever seen) is that Dany and her army killed thousands of innocent people, because that is what rulers and their armies do. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Daenerys Targaryen or Barack Obama.

Grey Worm's role was definitely very big in the slaughter. He knew Dany had agreed to allow a surrender yet he goes against that which is the antithesis of what the Unsullied are all about. They are supposed to be committed to a fault to follow chain of command and orders. We even see that earlier in the episode when Tyrion uses that trait to free Jamie. The guards know what Dany wants but having not received an order directly from her Tyrion is able to pull rank to get passed them. So even if Grey Worm believed that Dany would have wanted them to ignore the surrender those weren't his orders. It was a huge moment in his story for him to do so and in such a violent and disturbing manner. I hope it doesn't get ignored in the finale.

Except that Tyrion did not give a lawful order. He, himself, broke the chain of command. Those soldiers are as much on the hook for releasing Jaimie as Tyrion himself is.

purplerat wrote:

scott1328 wrote:

purplerat wrote:

Shrunk wrote:I'm surprised there has not been more discussion, here and elsewhere, of Grey Worm's role in the genocide, which is almost as pivotal as Dany's. In a way, that about-face was less foreseeable. But in other ways, completely predictable. The message I took from this episode (which I thought, even taking the flaws into account, were some of the finest 80 min of TV I have ever seen) is that Dany and her army killed thousands of innocent people, because that is what rulers and their armies do. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Daenerys Targaryen or Barack Obama.

Grey Worm's role was definitely very big in the slaughter. He knew Dany had agreed to allow a surrender yet he goes against that which is the antithesis of what the Unsullied are all about. They are supposed to be committed to a fault to follow chain of command and orders. We even see that earlier in the episode when Tyrion uses that trait to free Jamie. The guards know what Dany wants but having not received an order directly from her Tyrion is able to pull rank to get passed them. So even if Grey Worm believed that Dany would have wanted them to ignore the surrender those weren't his orders. It was a huge moment in his story for him to do so and in such a violent and disturbing manner. I hope it doesn't get ignored in the finale.

Except that Tyrion did not give a lawful order. He, himself, broke the chain of command. Those soldiers are as much on the hook for releasing Jaimie as Tyrion himself is.

I'm not sure how the command would be unlawful. As far as I can tell Westeros has no written laws never mind rules of war. Just about the only legal precedent clearly outlined in the story is that the Hand of the King/Queen for all intents and purposes is the law.

Shrunk wrote:[quote="purplerat";p="2696691Grey Worm's role was definitely very big in the slaughter. He knew Dany had agreed to allow a surrender yet he goes against that which is the antithesis of what the Unsullied are all about. They are supposed to be committed to a fault to follow chain of command and orders. We even see that earlier in the episode when Tyrion uses that trait to free Jamie. The guards know what Dany wants but having not received an order directly from her Tyrion is able to pull rank to get passed them. So even if Grey Worm believed that Dany would have wanted them to ignore the surrender those weren't his orders. It was a huge moment in his story for him to do so and in such a violent and disturbing manner. I hope it doesn't get ignored in the finale.

GAME OF THRONES FANS PETITION HBO TO REMAKE SEASON 8 "WITH COMPETENT WRITERS"

Animavore wrote:

GAME OF THRONES FANS PETITION HBO TO REMAKE SEASON 8 "WITH COMPETENT WRITERS"

https://ie.ign.com/articles/2019/05/16/ ... 610b001078

Animavore wrote:I'll be waiting for the complete remake in 30 years.