Lion IRC vs Crocodile Gandhi
Moderators: kiore, Blip, The_Metatron
The Oracle of Delphi wrote: : “Almost all cultures that recognize marriage, also recognize adultery as a violation of the terms of marriage.
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GENERAL MODNOTE Crocodile Gandhi submitted his post for approval well before the 72 hour deadline, but he will not be available to actually post it himself, as he is away from computer access for several hours today. Therefore, I shall submit his approved post on his behalf. Durro |
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GENERAL MODNOTE Crocodile Gandhi's next post |
I agree that a line in the sand must be drawn but I believe that such a line should always be re-drawn whenever it is appropriate to do so and in the absence of any reason not to.
Lion and other opponents of gay marriage may argue that the correct remedy should be to grant civil unions all of the same rights as marriage.
I submit that there is no good reason not to legalise gay marriage. And, wherever there are benefits for allowing something to happen, in the absence of any good reason not to let it happen, it should be made legal.
One of the biggest problems that I find with those who argue against gay marriage is that their arguments are often irrelevant with respect to marriage.
I don't believe that any… This is because I believe that…I'm pretty darn sure that… While I personally do not believe… I believe that through his arguments … As I have stated throughout this debate, I do not believe there is… This is, I believe, sufficient for…
While Lion likely believes that…
It appears that Lion has proved me wrong. Gay marriage, it seems, may make lawyers some more money.
Now, my own version of debate MADlibs is obviously utter nonsense, but it is probably just about as relevant to the debate as what Lion had written.
“…heard a man in the street make a spirited defense of gay marriage.
…And the man speaking those words was, of course, homeless and stark raving mad.”
…the arguments that my opponent proposed…likely to be largely irrelevant with respect to the debate topic….looks like I was not far wrong with this prediction…
Lion then moved onto talking about divorce, which is entirely irrelevant to the proposition of allowing marriage...
…laws with respect to aboriginal people…
Now, as I type this I can almost feel Lion jumping up and down saying "But they are abnormal! Most people are heterosexual.
Leaving aside that by Lion's own admission it may be impossible to tell where straight ends and gay begins,
...it's rather clear that when people talk about homosexuality being unusual or abnormal, they are using the word as a perjorative [sic].
“…Lion's post seems to be an agrument [sic] from increased workload. It is almost certainly true that legalising gay marriage will increase the overall workload …”
…So fucking what? It is necessarliy [sic] true that workplace saftey [sic] laws vastly increase the workload of companies…
The fact is that not allowing them to marry the person of their choice is discriminatory (unfairly discriminatory, if Lion needs me to spell it out again).
…I believe that the paucity of value in the negative arguments is one of the greatest positive arguments”
There are some areas in which we discriminate, yet that is because there is good reason to do so. For example, not allowing convicted murderers to become policemen.
…when there is no good reason to deny a group of people from engaging in an activity based on a particular trait, this is unfair discrimination…
Lion takes pain to remind us all of the definition of discrimination. Yet this completely ignores that I have already stated that laws can, do and should discriminate. I went on to talk about what I define as unfair discrimination and explained why I view the illegality of same-sex marriage as being unfair...
Lion's disingenuous position...it displeases me that he appears to be arguing at odds with the positions [that we know ?] he holds...he obviously holds marriage as necessary institution that should be honoured and respected…
…he has argued in a manner thus far that can easily lead one to the conclusion that all marriage is bad for society…
...If Lion' s previous post was a trainwreck, then his most recent effort could only be described as the Challenger disaster...
Lion investigated what 'gay' and 'hetero' really mean, whether there is a specturm, [sic] and whether we can classify anyone into any category. I merely wonder whether any of that really matters.
What I and other proponents would like to see is for the law to be changed to allow one woman to marry another woman, or one man to marry another man. Whether those men and women are full-blown homosexual, bisexual, or even heterosexual doesn't matter.
Lion also investigated the idea of homosexuality being a choice. He cites examples of people choosing to be or becoming gay. This is a red herring. Whether people are "born that way" is irrelevant.
Lion explored the slippery slope fallacy. I couldn't give two figs whether Lion's argument amounts to a slippery slope fallacy.
There's no reason as to why anyone shouldn't be allowed to state their case for their desired definition of marriage, even if it were people wanting to marry goats. The test should be, as it should be in the case of gay marriage, whether there is good reason not to broaden the laws.
If it's found that there is (such as the inability of the goat to consent to such an arrangement) then the law should not be broadened. If there isn't, then it should.
In many jurisdictions there are notable legal differences between civil unions and marriage. These range from tax benefits to hospital visitation rights and survivorship rights.
..Yet such an arrangement would still not be equitable. By not allowing same-sex marriage, the idea that same-sex relationships are less than is created. That their love is less than heterosexual couples. That their bond is somehow less valid.
Dividing the two groups based on nothing other than the gender of the people involved creates the stigma that there is something unusual or abnormal about gay relationships.
Dividing the two groups based on nothing other than the gender of the people involved creates the stigma that there is something unusual or abnormal about gay relationships.
Particularly when those who argue against same-sex marriage and call homosexuals abnormal are likely to argue that it will open the door to beastiality (something that Lion has hinted at). This is a deeply offensive proposition...
If it's found that there is (such as the inability of the goat to consent to such an arrangement) then the law should not be broadened. If there isn't, then it should.
So what's the problem with the stigma created by creating two classes of relationship - those who are worthy of marriage and those who aren't?
The problem is that people LGBT community are more likely to have mental health issues, ranging from depression to suicide. The National survey of Mental Health and Wellbeing conducted by the Australian Bureau of Statistics found that homosexual/bisexual people are:
•more likely to have had a chronic condition in the last 12 months (51.3% v. 46.9%)
•twice as likely to have a high/very high level of psychological distress (18.2% v. 9.2%)
•almost 3 times as likely to have had suicidal thoughts (34.7% v. 12.9%)
•5 times as likely to have had suicidal plans (17.1% v. 3.7%)
•4 times as likely to have attempted suicide (12.6% v. 3.1%) .
…being seen as a seperate [sic] and unequal group in the eyes of the law, the stigma created feeds into such undesirable outcomes. It's not hard to imagine that a stigma exists when the mere idea of gay marriage possibly being legalised causes so many to state that it will be the very downfall of all civilisation…
It's clear that Lion holds marriage in high regard.
Furthermore, it's clear that he believes that marriage is something that there should be more of, else he wouldn't have spent so long irrelevantly bemoaning the high rates and negative effects of divorce… if you love marriage so much, you should be wanting more people to do it.
“…Lion's post seems to be an agrument [sic] from increased workload. It is almost certainly true that legalising gay marriage will increase the overall workload …”
Thanks.
Increased legal complexity increases litigation.…So fucking what? It is necessarliy [sic] true that workplace saftey [sic] laws vastly increase the workload of companies…
This is not an argument for gay marriage...even with expletives.
I respect and honor the institution of marriage. If I didn’t think there was anything to respect and honor, I wouldn’t be in this debate. It’s the people who want to change the definition of marriage who have, ironically, mastered the double-think necessary to claim that the institution of marriage is so important to gays that its definition has to be watered down sufficiently to permit SSM........then locked in stone to prevent its further dilution.
What isn’t long-standing is the notion that marriage is for everyone and anyone, anywhere, anytime for any duration or any imaginable combination of participants or species – at will - regardless of what their fellow members of human society (and their children) think.
There's no reason as to why anyone shouldn't be allowed to state their case for their desired definition of marriage, even if it were people wanting to marry goats. The test should be, as it should be in the case of gay marriage, whether there is good reason not to broaden the laws.
You heard it here first.
Give people the opportunity to argue for inter-species marriage. Now THAT’S Marriage Equality
Stigma? Says who?
Particularly when those who argue against same-sex marriage and call homosexuals abnormal are likely to argue that it will open the door to beastiality (something that Lion has hinted at). This is a deeply offensive proposition...
Hang on! You’re contradicting yourself. You said…
There's no reason as to why anyone shouldn't be allowed to state their case for their desired definition of marriage, even if it were people wanting to marry goats.
Lion investigated what 'gay' and 'hetero' really mean, whether there is a specturm, [sic] and whether we can classify anyone into any category. I merely wonder whether any of that really matters.
This is a formal debate about whether it “matters” ....and you are still wondering what your position is?
Dividing the two groups based on nothing other than the gender of the people involved creates the stigma that there is something unusual or abnormal about gay relationships.
Gender isn’t trivial. Nor is it “just” something in the imagination of opponents of SSM. As a species we proceed by opposite gender mating / sexual selection.
It's an argument for everyone.
And anyone
Anywhere.
Anytime.
For any duration.
For any imaginable combination of participants
Lion IRC wrote:Q & A Round
Q.1
My first question to Crocodile Gandhi relates to the notion of “Marriage Equality”.
Does 21st century matrimonial law - in Australia or throughout human society in general - have any good reason or reasons, in your view, to discriminate against bisexual or transgender polygamous marriage (MMF, MMM, FFM, MFFF, etc.) in favor of monogamous marriage?
Yes or No.
Crocodile Gandhi wrote:
My first question to Lion is:
Q.1
If, as you have argued, some individuals' freedoms should be restricted due to statistics pertaining to a group to which they belong, do you believe that it should be made illegal for any Catholic priest to work with children due to incidences of child-abuse which occur at the hands of the clergy as a whole? And If not, why not?
Lion IRC wrote:Q & A Round
Q. 2
My next question relates to the alarming mental health statistics you posted in relation the homosexual minority and your argument about the degree to which so-called Marriage Equality may help to alleviate the enormous stigma which you and the SSM lobby frequently allude to.
It’s a simple multiple choice question
Much of the literature I have read indicates that many gay people feel so stigmatized that they would give anything to be “straight” if they thought they could change, so in your estimation, what percentage of people who define themselves as “gay” specifically (as opposed to bisexual) would rather be “straight”?
A. Less than 25%
B. Between 25% and 50%
C. Between 50% and 75%
D. Over 75%
NB. Readers should acknowledge that this question merely asks for Crocodile Gandhi’s estimate.
Lion IRC wrote:In talking about the restriction of so-called “individual [sic] freedoms,” there is an inference that those “freedoms” actually do exist. But do they really exist?
Crocodile Gandhi wrote:Q & A Round
Q. Can Lion confirm that he now believes not everyone has the freedom to practise and observe their religion or belief?
If not, can Lion explain how making it illegal for people to practise and observe the sacrament of marriage according to their religion or belief gives them the freedom to practise and observe their religion or belief?
Lion IRC wrote:Specifically, do you think children raised from (birth to adulthood) by their two direct biological (loving) parents in an opposite-gender, mating/matrimonial pairing lasting long enough to raise the child to adulthood, affords them any greater welfare benefit in terms of gender-balanced, mother/father role model education as against a same-sex adoptive parenting arrangement in which one or both (loving) parents are not the directly related and BOTH parents being of the same gender as the child being raised or NEITHER parent being the same gender as the child being raised?
Lion IRC wrote:I raise it in the debate because the same-sex marriage lobby (a global minority) is in a head-on collision course with religious culture (a global majority)
...
People claiming the right to religion, including that percentage of the world's population which adheres to Abrahamic monotheism (50% to 60% +) will claim the commensurate “right” to discriminate against homosexual marriage...
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