I am Muslim, Part 3

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the mosques...

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Re: I am Muslim, Part 3

#1441  Postby byofrcs » Nov 01, 2011 12:41 am

z8000783 wrote:
byofrcs wrote:It's a bizarre displacement activity to apply modern judgement of the lifestyle of a person who live 1400 years ago. Why not focus on applying modern judgements to the lifestyles of people who live in the 21st century ?

I think we can safely leave it to the religious groups to take on that role. After all they are the professional at it.

John


Well they are the flip-side of the people complaining about Muhammad; To me the people using today's standards to judge Muhammad are the flip side of the same coin as the people using Muhammad's standards to judge modern society.
In America the battle is between common cents distorted by profits and common sense distorted by prophets.
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Re: I am Muslim, Part 3

#1442  Postby z8000783 » Nov 01, 2011 12:43 am

Perhaps is the process of judging that starts the downward slide irrespective of the content.

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Re: I am Muslim, Part 3

#1443  Postby byofrcs » Nov 01, 2011 1:10 am

No, you a judge society by using objective metrics. This is why I mentioned infant mortality rates in another tread about Tunisia and Sharia. Religion is only ever subjective.
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Re: I am Muslim, Part 3

#1444  Postby z8000783 » Nov 01, 2011 1:12 am

Why is it necessary to judge a society?

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Re: I am Muslim, Part 3

#1445  Postby Matt8819 » Nov 01, 2011 1:15 am

Quick question, how long till ray shows up again, does everyone think?
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Re: I am Muslim, Part 3

#1446  Postby byofrcs » Nov 01, 2011 1:36 am

z8000783 wrote:Why is it necessary to judge a society?

John


I see it as a natural progression in that just as evolution uses fitness through a process of natural selection to find a local optimum to a naturally formed problem landscape, then the standards that we set define the success in the problem landscape for cultures.

We exist as a species because of evolution - I see evolution as a necessary and sufficient condition for our existence. It is my belief that for a culture to exist then it too must have a fitness function in a similar manner for society to be fit (local optimum notwithstanding).

Theists see their dogma as necessary (and sufficient): I disagree and lean towards objective measures. Either way both "judge" because both see this as necessary at least.
In America the battle is between common cents distorted by profits and common sense distorted by prophets.
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Re: I am Muslim, Part 3

#1447  Postby Durro » Nov 01, 2011 4:56 am

ray wrote: Have some balls people.


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:)
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Re: I am Muslim, Part 3

#1448  Postby Matt8819 » Nov 01, 2011 4:57 am

Durro wrote:
ray wrote: Have some balls people.


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:)


:lol: :lol: That's awesome :drunk:
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Re: I am Muslim, Part 3

#1449  Postby Agrippina » Nov 01, 2011 5:25 am

Betty White is awesome!
A mind without instruction can no more bear fruit than can a field, however fertile, without cultivation. - Marcus Tullius Cicero (106 BCE - 43 BCE)
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Re: I am Muslim, Part 3

#1450  Postby Angel » Nov 01, 2011 6:49 am

ray wrote:Fair point Agrippna.

Prophet Muhammad married Aisha when she was 18. Some mistakes led to reports being written that she was 6.

Evidence is historical in nature. Its a long, but if you got time, try to read this:

http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm


None of the above is true.

This is very long, but addresses every single distorted point:

http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Refutatio ... nsummation
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Re: I am Muslim, Part 3

#1451  Postby Agrippina » Nov 01, 2011 8:50 am

Angel wrote:
ray wrote:Fair point Agrippna.

Prophet Muhammad married Aisha when she was 18. Some mistakes led to reports being written that she was 6.

Evidence is historical in nature. Its a long, but if you got time, try to read this:

http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm


None of the above is true.

This is very long, but addresses every single distorted point:

http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Refutatio ... nsummation



Welcome to the forum Angel.

I have no doubt that the original and generally understood version is correct and the behavior can be excused by accepting that it was the norm for the time for prophets to be married to young virgins, and even to be allowed to consummate the marriage. There is plenty of evidence in all pre-modern history for girls having been used as political pawns, some royals married their daughters off even as young as under a year. Mary Queen of Scots is a case in point. She was sent to the French Court as a young child to be raised as the wife of the Dauphin. Our modern thinking finds this reprehensible,and as I said earlier, I like to think that I would've been revolted by the idea of being married off to an old man at 15 even in ancient times. But, as was pointed out to me, I can't imagine what I would have felt had I grown up in a different culture, even today. Who knows, if I'd been raised in the Middle East and married off at 13/14/15, I might have just accepted it, even in the second half of the 20th century.

The point is that the behavior shouldn't be held up as being the rule to be followed, today. We should be outraged at the thought of children being forced into marriage, even if the partner is one of their own choice, and their own age. Children should be encouraged to enjoy as much of their youth as possible before committing to a long term relationship of any sort, even the one that will ultimately be their career path.
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Re: I am Muslim, Part 3

#1452  Postby Angel » Nov 01, 2011 10:38 am

Agrippina wrote:
Welcome to the forum Angel.


Thank you. :)

Agrippina wrote:The point is that the behavior shouldn't be held up as being the rule to be followed, today. We should be outraged at the thought of children being forced into marriage, even if the partner is one of their own choice, and their own age. Children should be encouraged to enjoy as much of their youth as possible before committing to a long term relationship of any sort, even the one that will ultimately be their career path.


In complete agreement here. Unfortunately the mainstream Sunni position on child-marriages has changed very little in the past 1000+ years. It is specifically because Muhammad's morality is held up by the majority as being the rule to be followed.

When I come across articles like those posted by Ray, it makes me want to tear my hair out, because it's akin to a Christian telling you heaven and hell are not literal places, or something similar. It may be convenient for them in a debate/discussion, but it matters very little in the real world because scripture is on the traditionalist's side, and hardly anyone who belongs to that faith agrees with them.
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Re: I am Muslim, Part 3

#1453  Postby Oeditor » Nov 01, 2011 10:46 am

byofrcs wrote: isn't it a bit hypocritical that the English law of the 16th century i.e. 900 years later permitted a marriage of a 10 year old girl ? By your own claims then these English marriages are in your own words "rape".
They were - the girl would have had no ability to agree, let alone dissent. Not jut my interpretation, btw.
It's a bizarre displacement activity to apply modern judgement of the lifestyle of a person who live 1400 years ago. Why not focus on applying modern judgements to the lifestyles of people who live in the 21st century ?
Not as bizarre as applying 7th century judgements to modern lifestyles. And making such judgements mandatory for all people forever more. Stull, that's religion for you.
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Re: I am Muslim, Part 3

#1454  Postby Scot Dutchy » Nov 01, 2011 10:48 am

Angel wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
Welcome to the forum Angel.


Thank you. :)

Agrippina wrote:The point is that the behavior shouldn't be held up as being the rule to be followed, today. We should be outraged at the thought of children being forced into marriage, even if the partner is one of their own choice, and their own age. Children should be encouraged to enjoy as much of their youth as possible before committing to a long term relationship of any sort, even the one that will ultimately be their career path.


In complete agreement here. Unfortunately the mainstream Sunni position on child-marriages has changed very little in the past 1000+ years. It is specifically because Muhammad's morality is held up by the majority as being the rule to be followed.

When I come across articles like those posted by Ray, it makes me want to tear my hair out, because it's akin to a Christian telling you heaven and hell are not literal places, or something similar. It may be convenient for them in a debate/discussion, but it matters very little in the real world because scripture is on the traditionalist's side, and hardly anyone who belongs to that faith agrees with them.


Welcome Angel

I fully agree with you.
As Aggie says if this was just an historical matter ok but it is not there plenty of occasions where it is still happening today in the 21st. centuary. Ray and his ilk just dont want to talk about it as they do not want to discuss any of the other atrocities commited in the name of islam.
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Re: I am Muslim, Part 3

#1455  Postby rJD » Nov 01, 2011 10:50 am

Agrippina wrote:The point is that the behavior shouldn't be held up as being the rule to be followed, today.

:thumbup:

In addition, the pillorying of Mohammed as a child-molester is not (usually) intended as a serious attack on him divorced from his social context. Most of us accept that what he did was acceptable in his time and culture and that he shouldn't be judged as harshly as someone displaying the same behaviours today, even if we find it creepy and nasty even within that culture. The purpose is to highlight that the religious claims made for Mohammed as some kind of unimpeachable moral paragon, giving us an objective example of how to live for all time, are absurd and indefensible, by picking out one of the worst examples of his behaviour, one that can only be fully defended by recourse to cultural relativism.
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Re: I am Muslim, Part 3

#1456  Postby Scarlett » Nov 01, 2011 11:10 am

Angel wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
Welcome to the forum Angel.


Thank you. :)

Agrippina wrote:The point is that the behavior shouldn't be held up as being the rule to be followed, today. We should be outraged at the thought of children being forced into marriage, even if the partner is one of their own choice, and their own age. Children should be encouraged to enjoy as much of their youth as possible before committing to a long term relationship of any sort, even the one that will ultimately be their career path.


In complete agreement here. Unfortunately the mainstream Sunni position on child-marriages has changed very little in the past 1000+ years. It is specifically because Muhammad's morality is held up by the majority as being the rule to be followed.

When I come across articles like those posted by Ray, it makes me want to tear my hair out, because it's akin to a Christian telling you heaven and hell are not literal places, or something similar. It may be convenient for them in a debate/discussion, but it matters very little in the real world because scripture is on the traditionalist's side, and hardly anyone who belongs to that faith agrees with them.



Hi Angel :wave:

I'm not usually so aggressive, Ray just p's me off quite a lot with his blatant misogyny :roll:

It'd be good to know a little about you, if you'd be willing there's a welcome new members thread :)
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Re: I am Muslim, Part 3

#1457  Postby z8000783 » Nov 01, 2011 11:16 am

Hi Angel

Don't listen to her, She's scotch and she's angry all the time.

John
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Re: I am Muslim, Part 3

#1458  Postby Scarlett » Nov 01, 2011 11:19 am

z8000783 wrote:Hi Angel

Don't listen to her, She's scotch and she's angry all the time.

John


Bloody hell John, I'm trying to give a good impression here. She/he can find out later that I'm a stroppy bitch :roll:
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Re: I am Muslim, Part 3

#1459  Postby Scot Dutchy » Nov 01, 2011 11:24 am

How to get a SCOTCHman mad.
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Re: I am Muslim, Part 3

#1460  Postby Scarlett » Nov 01, 2011 11:25 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:How to get a SCOTCHman mad.


FFS Scot, I'm not even a man never mind SCOTCH :nono:
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