michael^3 wrote:Well excuse the hell out of me for taking only the things that I like. I like to call it "independent thinking"

I know that for an atheist, a believer will be accused of being either be a fundie extremist (if he takes all scripture literally) or a cherry picker (if he doesn't). So you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

You're free to pick and choose whatever bits you want from holy scripture and disregard the rest (not like you need my permission.) However, you can't claim that this is what Islam allows, because that's simply not true.

it seems to be allowed when trying to convert people to islam.

Shrunk wrote:

michael^3 wrote: If you had actually read the Quran, you would have encountered endless admonitions to be: generous, humble, doer of good deeds, kind, moderate, soft-spoken, not too concerned with material wealth, charitable, truthful, and so on. I could quote hundreds of those, literally. And maybe I should. So yeah,I would make the "sweeping generality" that the basic message of the Quran is to be concerned about your own behavior. This makes perfect sense if you believe that it is god who does the final reckoning.

I don't deny those things are in there, too. As they are in every single code of moral behaviour, religious or secular, that has been devised in human history. Those things do not define Islam in any meaningful way. What defines Islam, I believed we have agreed, is the concept of submission to the will and rule of Allah. And that gets to the very crux of the matter. For this submission means, among the "endless admontitions" to be humble, kind, moderate, etc, etc one must also obey the admonitions to murder infidels, beat your wife, marry and rape children

Rape childeren? Where's that in the quran?

The passage about killing infidels pertains to a particular episode in the history of Arabia. It does not say that muslims have to kill infidels. On the contrary, it is said "let them enjoy this temporary life a bit".

if you so wish, etc. If the basis of Islam was not submission to the will of Allah, then one would be free to simply ignore all the nasty stuff and follow only the nice stuff. But that's not how it works. Because that would mean putting your human intellect and judgement over that of the all-knowing Allah, which would be the single most heinous sin for a Muslim to commit.

All the nasty stuff? We're talking about 2 or 3 questionable passages in a book of 500 pages. This is all what detractors of the Quran can come up with, and it's not because of lack of effort.

So I freely acknowledge the existence of the more admirable parts of the Quran that you describe, but hold that they are debased and negated by the barbaric, irrational atrocities that the Quran also mandates, and which you seem so eager to pretend don't exist. As I said, it doesn't work that way. You have to take the Quran as a whole, every word of it, or you are not following Islam.

I'm not a muslim and I'm not pretending to follow islam. I just wanted to say a few words in defense of a book that I love dearly, and that is grossly misrepresented in this thread.

michael^3 wrote: I'm not a muslim and I'm not pretending to follow islam. I just wanted to say a few words in defense of a book that I love dearly, and that is grossly misrepresented in this thread.

Well, that's fine. If you want to defend it as a book, I have no problem with that. I also have books that I love that nonetheless contain a few embarassing passages.

But what most people on this thread are arguing against is the doctrine of this book as the inerrant and complete divine revelation of Allah, which must be followed in its entirety and interpreted according to the Hadith of Muhammed.

michael^3 wrote:

Shrunk wrote:

michael^3 wrote: If you had actually read the Quran, you would have encountered endless admonitions to be: generous, humble, doer of good deeds, kind, moderate, soft-spoken, not too concerned with material wealth, charitable, truthful, and so on. I could quote hundreds of those, literally. And maybe I should. So yeah,I would make the "sweeping generality" that the basic message of the Quran is to be concerned about your own behavior. This makes perfect sense if you believe that it is god who does the final reckoning.

I don't deny those things are in there, too. As they are in every single code of moral behaviour, religious or secular, that has been devised in human history. Those things do not define Islam in any meaningful way. What defines Islam, I believed we have agreed, is the concept of submission to the will and rule of Allah. And that gets to the very crux of the matter. For this submission means, among the "endless admontitions" to be humble, kind, moderate, etc, etc one must also obey the admonitions to murder infidels, beat your wife, marry and rape children

Rape childeren? Where's that in the quran?

The passage about killing infidels pertains to a particular episode in the history of Arabia. It does not say that muslims have to kill infidels. On the contrary, it is said "let them enjoy this temporary life a bit".

I was under the impression that it was a book for all people at all times.

It still hasn't been shown that those passages only apply to a certain situation.

michael^3 wrote:

if you so wish, etc. If the basis of Islam was not submission to the will of Allah, then one would be free to simply ignore all the nasty stuff and follow only the nice stuff. But that's not how it works. Because that would mean putting your human intellect and judgement over that of the all-knowing Allah, which would be the single most heinous sin for a Muslim to commit.

All the nasty stuff? We're talking about 2 or 3 questionable passages in a book of 500 pages. This is all what detractors of the Quran can come up with, and it's not because of lack of effort.

The point is if it is the literall work of the creator of the Universe there shouldn't any questionable pages should there?

michael^3 wrote:

So I freely acknowledge the existence of the more admirable parts of the Quran that you describe, but hold that they are debased and negated by the barbaric, irrational atrocities that the Quran also mandates, and which you seem so eager to pretend don't exist. As I said, it doesn't work that way. You have to take the Quran as a whole, every word of it, or you are not following Islam.

I'm not a muslim and I'm not pretending to follow islam. I just wanted to say a few words in defense of a book that I love dearly, and that is grossly misrepresented in this thread.

You can't have it both ways, it is either the literal word of God which must be followed or you will receive eternal torture, or it is not. Which is it to be?

John

wtf is leterall?

michael^3 wrote:

coito ergo cum laude wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

coito ergo cum laude wrote:

It's not so much the fact that THEY submit to Allah, it's that they don't like to allow equal rights for others to not submit to Allah. That's why throughout the "Muslim" world they have various "Islamic Republics" and Islam is legally favored. Look at Saudi Arabia, where it's illegal to even build a church or a mosque.

Pretty much the first thing that is said in the Quran is that there are many people who claim they are muslims, but they aren't. You would know this, if you had ever read the Quran. So what do I care if there are bad people in country X or country Y? I was talking about the Quran, not about certain political realities of this temporary world.

I'm more concerned with what Muslims are actually doing than what you think they should be doing.

Why would you be concerned with what other people may or may not be doing?

Because when they blow things up, stab people to death in cold blood, surborn murder, commit mayhem, commit arson, kidnap, behead, raze buildings, assault, batter and do other such things it really gets a tad tiresome...

michael^3 wrote:
The message of the Quran is that you should be concerned about your own behavior,

That does not appear to be the message taken by the vast majority of Muslims. If that were the case, then Muslims would not overwhelmingly reside in officially "Muslim" countries, where Islam is at a minimum given a preferred place under the law and often is imposed upon the community at large whether they like it or not. It's the very epitomy of being concerned with the behavior of others, rather than one's own behavior. If Muslims overwhelmingly would confine their silly religion to themselves - those who voluntarily choose to follow its precepts - the world would be a better place...

michael^3 wrote:

and not care too much about what other people do. I don't see what's so revolting, backward or stupid about this message. Yet here you are, rebuking a billion people.

I'm not rebuking a billion people. I'm rebuking Islam, and Muslims who are motivated by Islam to commit atrocious acts. I also do not agree that the message of Islam is to mind one's own behavior and not worry about what others are doing. Look at the worldwide uproar over what Danes were doing in Denmark when they published cartoons. Rather than mind their own business and behavior, Muslims apparently chose to riot, murder, commit arson, assault and batter people, and otherwise sought to impose their will upon others, all in the name of their silly religion.

michael^3 wrote:

Further, saying that there are many people who claim that they are Muslims but aren't doesn't tell me anything, and saying they should obey the Koran doesn't tell me anything. Some people say it says one thing, others say it says another. I've read it, and find it revolting, and I find that to follow the Koran is itself certainly not commendable. It's backward and stupid, and is a horrible moral guide.

michael^3 wrote:

Islam is an insult to human dignity.

Rollerlocked wrote:I'm concerned because Islam is a ghoul grown fat on the corpses of raped and murdered civilizations, and it has its eyes set on its next victims.

Well put.

Luis Dias wrote:wtf is leterall?

A spelling mishtake.

John

michael^3 wrote:

Shrunk wrote:

michael^3 wrote: Why would you be concerned with what other people may or may not be doing? The message of the Quran is that you should be concerned about your own behavior, and not care too much about what other people do. I don't see what's so revolting, backward or stupid about this message.

If that were the case, then the Quran's advice to the husband of a "rebellious" wife would be to just be concerned with his own behaviour, not beat her into submission. You're making a lot of bland sweeping generalities here that simply don't square with the actual content of the Quran.

If you had actually read the Quran, you would have encountered endless admonitions to be: generous, humble, doer of good deeds, kind, moderate, soft-spoken, not too concerned with material wealth, charitable, truthful, and so on. I could quote hundreds of those, literally. And maybe I should. So yeah,I would make the "sweeping generality" that the basic message of the Quran is to be concerned about your own behavior. This makes perfect sense if you believe that it is god who does the final reckoning.

Let's talk about a few of those verses.

However, in Muslim double-talk, it is "kindness" and "good deeds" and "moderate" etc. to properly chastise and admonish one's wife, to "separate her apart" if she is disobedient, and even to beat her if the husband finds it necessary. The paternalistic and misogynistic verses of the Koran are simply subsumed within the definition of what is good and right and humble. A good man beats his wife when necessary to keep her in line.

A good Muslim commits good deeds, etc., when he opposes the unbeliever and "slays them wherever you catch them" Sura 2:191.

Goodness is defined as the will of Allah. Therefore, to impose Islam on others - to slay the unbelievers - and to fight for Islam is good.

That's one thing we always have to be careful of when discussing issues of "goodness" with a believer in Islam or Christianity. They define "goodness" as whatever Allah or God wills. Even if an act is otherwise revolting, it's "good" if god commands it. So, that's why wife beating is good - and slavery is good - and killing unbelievers is good - according the Koran - Allah wills it. And, if Allah wills it, it must be good.

cherries wrote:you can have alcohol in heaven

I'm hoping for the beer volcano and stripper factory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

An interesting point was raised.
If a man is superior and is incapable of taking care of himself and he has only a wife, daughters and sisters and no other relatives, does he still have the most intelligence and 'the power?'

Agrippina wrote:An interesting point was raised.
If a man is superior and is incapable of taking care of himself and he has only a wife, daughters and sisters and no other relatives, does he still have the most intelligence and 'the power?'

A related issue arose in Taliban-era Afghanistan where, as a result of the lengthy war, there were a large number of widows and a short supply of potential husbands. Since women were not allowed to work and, of course, insurance was not available to them, this raised the question of how these women were actually supposed to survive. Of course, the Taliban were too busy with more pressing issues such as the destruction of Buddha statues to actually address a trifling concern like this, so these women were forced to rely on begging or prostitution to support themselves, or simply accepting a life of destitution.

Shrunk wrote:

Agrippina wrote:An interesting point was raised.
If a man is superior and is incapable of taking care of himself and he has only a wife, daughters and sisters and no other relatives, does he still have the most intelligence and 'the power?'

A related issue arose in Taliban-era Afghanistan where, as a result of the lengthy war, there were a large number of widows and a short supply of potential husbands. Since women were not allowed to work and, of course, insurance was not available to them, this raised the question of how these women were actually supposed to survive. Of course, the Taliban were too busy with more pressing issues such as the destruction of Buddha statues to actually address a trifling concern like this, so these women were forced to rely on begging or prostitution to support themselves, or simply accepting a life of destitution.

Sounds wonderful for a bunch of people who follow the supposed charity religion.

coito ergo cum laude wrote:

cherries wrote:you can have alcohol in heaven

I'm hoping for the beer volcano and stripper factory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

oh noes hell could mean stale beer and syphilis

cherries wrote:

coito ergo cum laude wrote:

cherries wrote:you can have alcohol in heaven

I'm hoping for the beer volcano and stripper factory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

oh noes hell could mean stale beer and syphilis

Why can't it be the things you tell god you really dislike. So seeing that you're going anyway, why not lie and say you really hate Moet and fine cheese and caviare, then that's what you'll get in hell.

coito ergo cum laude wrote:That's one thing we always have to be careful of when discussing issues of "goodness" with a believer in Islam or Christianity. They define "goodness" as whatever Allah or God wills. Even if an act is otherwise revolting, it's "good" if god commands it.

Now you've got me thinking of the story of Abraham and Isaac/Ibrahim and Ishmael. One of the great quarrels I have with Yahweh in his various guises. What kind of god commands a father to kill his child and rewards him for being willing to obey that insane command? How can anyone blithely accept this story and its implications and still worship such a god?
[/rant]

Agrippina wrote:

cherries wrote:

coito ergo cum laude wrote:

cherries wrote:you can have alcohol in heaven

I'm hoping for the beer volcano and stripper factory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

oh noes hell could mean stale beer and syphilis

Why can't it be the things you tell god you really dislike. So seeing that you're going anyway, why not lie and say you really hate Moet and fine cheese and caviare, then that's what you'll get in hell.

mmhh,this could be the start of another religion.btw.i hate to have whatever i want.

Seems like a good time to resurrect this little gem. Paradise according to Harun Yaya, who is a hero to many Muslims.

Muslim Paradise

Let us consider one of Paradise's most striking blessings, one that is frequently mentioned in the Qur'an: beautiful women, who represent the height of the aesthetic idea. Just to be with them is a great blessing. The Qur'an describes the beauty of their faces, their skin, and even their bosoms. With these magnificent women, one of Allah's greatest material blessings - sexuality - can be experienced eternally in the most wonderful way. In the same manner, unmarried women will be married to young palace servants. This also is a free gift to them from Allah.

Sounds a bit like Dagenham on a Saturday night to me.

John

Shrunk wrote:

Agrippina wrote:An interesting point was raised.
If a man is superior and is incapable of taking care of himself and he has only a wife, daughters and sisters and no other relatives, does he still have the most intelligence and 'the power?'

A related issue arose in Taliban-era Afghanistan where, as a result of the lengthy war, there were a large number of widows and a short supply of potential husbands. Since women were not allowed to work and, of course, insurance was not available to them, this raised the question of how these women were actually supposed to survive. Of course, the Taliban were too busy with more pressing issues such as the destruction of Buddha statues to actually address a trifling concern like this, so these women were forced to rely on begging or prostitution to support themselves, or simply accepting a life of destitution.

there is this very good book by khaled hosseini,a thousand splendid suns,which gives one a little bit of an insight how it must have been like for afghan women at that time.