katja z wrote:

Madmaili wrote:
I dobut anyone on this forum beleives Mohamed to be a moral standard for our day ethier.

Ah, so you haven't met ray yet

I hope not to talking with richiedickens over at RDF for a few pages gave me a headache that lasted for days.

Madmaili wrote:

BigRed wrote:I have no proof or citations for his but I heard somewhere Mohammad was a child molestor? Can anyone back this up? I am not trying to be disrespectful just trying to validate this.

By the standards of our time yes, by the standards of his time and cultural norms of it , I really don't know someone who knows more about ancient arabia (Or history generally not my strong suit)might be able to give a concret answer on that. I do not know.

It has been a practice throughout civilization that girls are not to be touched until after puberty,
Yes western kings and the Greek and Romans married off children for territorial or financial purposes but they always waited until the child had passed puberty before the marriage was consummated. The Greeks, read here,had all sorts of peculiar sexual habits but remember be are talking about really ancient times, pre Roman.

The rule for girls has always been, to wait until puberty. But we're not talking about Ancient Greece or 8th century Arabia, we are talking about the 21st century and more than 60 years since the publication of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. So no, there is no excuse for anyone, anywhere in the world, no matter who they are or what their religious affiliation to ever treat women and children the way they do.

Leaving the physical aspect out, there are a lot of other wrongs done to people under Islam, chopping off of hands, stoning rape victims for 'adultery' and naturally the one that annoys most women in the west, the ridiculous way children are made to wear the adult outfits.

Agrippina wrote:But we're not talking about Ancient Greece or 8th century Arabia, we are talking about the 21st century and more than 60 years since the publication of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. So no, there is no excuse for anyone, anywhere in the world, no matter who they are or what their religious affiliation to ever treat women and children the way they do.

Leaving the physical aspect out, there are a lot of other wrongs done to people under Islam, chopping off of hands, stoning rape victims for 'adultery' and naturally the one that annoys most women in the west, the ridiculous way children are made to wear the adult outfits.

Agrippina you misunderstand , we are percisely talking about 7th century arabia(at least I am). I'm not saying anything of the sort that you impy, what I am talking about is the application of modren moral judegements to people who lived long before they were made.

Madmaili wrote:

Agrippina wrote:But we're not talking about Ancient Greece or 8th century Arabia, we are talking about the 21st century and more than 60 years since the publication of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. So no, there is no excuse for anyone, anywhere in the world, no matter who they are or what their religious affiliation to ever treat women and children the way they do.

Leaving the physical aspect out, there are a lot of other wrongs done to people under Islam, chopping off of hands, stoning rape victims for 'adultery' and naturally the one that annoys most women in the west, the ridiculous way children are made to wear the adult outfits.

Agrippina you misunderstand , we are percisely talking about 7th century arabia(at least I am). I'm not saying anything of the sort that you impy, what I am talking about is the application of modren moral judegements to people who lived long before they were made.

Unfortunately, people who live long after the 7th century apply its moral judgements because they believe Mohammed to be the most perfect man who ever lived, god's final messenger to humanity, and a moral standard to be emulated in all places and for all time. Thanks to Mohammed, the 7th century lives.
Worst prophet ever.

Madmaili wrote:

Agrippina wrote:But we're not talking about Ancient Greece or 8th century Arabia, we are talking about the 21st century and more than 60 years since the publication of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. So no, there is no excuse for anyone, anywhere in the world, no matter who they are or what their religious affiliation to ever treat women and children the way they do.

Leaving the physical aspect out, there are a lot of other wrongs done to people under Islam, chopping off of hands, stoning rape victims for 'adultery' and naturally the one that annoys most women in the west, the ridiculous way children are made to wear the adult outfits.

Agrippina you misunderstand , we are percisely talking about 7th century arabia(at least I am). I'm not saying anything of the sort that you impy, what I am talking about is the application of modren moral judegements to people who lived long before they were made.

Judging the behaviour of someone who is being held up as a hero to millions of people in the world.
It is right to take heroes off their pedestals, even if we look at it from the point of view that it was the 'fashion of the time' and even if it was the fashion at that time to abuse little girls, it was nevertheless frowned on by the people at the time. The Greeks had boy toys and lots of western men married little girls, but they were not 6 year old girls who were used as sex toys until they were old enough for the real thing. Even if kids were 'married' in order to seal an alliance, or if they were taken to the new family's court to be raised, as Mary Queen of Scots was taken to France to be raised when she was five, she took her attendants with her and she was taught the way that Queens of France were supposed to be raped and educated in languages, art, music and history, and of course to read and write. She wasn't kept as a toy until her period and then consistently raped until her hair fell out. So no matter what the excuse "oh it was the 8th century, things were different then" he was a paedophile rapist and there's no getting away from that. He preached the subjection and abuse of women and that and all the behaviour of men today is based on that.

I believe that all our so-called heroes should be shown for what they really were: King John of England instigated the writing of the Magna Carta but he was a piece of trash. Alexander the Great was a brilliant man and for a man of 20 to achieve what he did was 'great' but he also killed and raided and rampaged through the lands he conquered without regard for the people he subjected. Julius Caesar, Augustus Caesar, and most of the emperors of Rome were all men first, no matter how heroic they might seem to have been. They were human and we need to see them as such and take them off their pedestals. Make our own minds up about what is right and no matter how our parents try to convince us to believe in God, Mohammed, Jesus, George Bush or Barach Obama, make up your own mind. Use your own common sense. It is wrong, it has always been wrong to play sex games with children and it is very wrong to rape children, and it is wrong to make half the world's population walk a step behind the other half. No matter how many arguments people make for the usefulness of that kind of behaviour, it is just wrong.

We don't need heroes. We are heroes, we're the sperm cell that won the race. We are every one of us winners.

Agrippina wrote:Judging the behaviour of someone who is being held up as a hero to millions of people in the world.
It is right to take heroes off their pedestals, even if we look at it from the point of view that it was the 'fashion of the time' and even if it was the fashion at that time to abuse little girls, it was nevertheless frowned on by the people at the time. The Greeks had boy toys and lots of western men married little girls, but they were not 6 year old girls who were used as sex toys until they were old enough for the real thing. Even if kids were 'married' in order to seal an alliance, or if they were taken to the new family's court to be raised, as Mary Queen of Scots was taken to France to be raised when she was five, she took her attendants with her and she was taught the way that Queens of France were supposed to be raped and educated in languages, art, music and history, and of course to read and write. She wasn't kept as a toy until her period and then consistently raped until her hair fell out. So no matter what the excuse "oh it was the 8th century, things were different then" he was a paedophile rapist and there's no getting away from that. He preached the subjection and abuse of women and that and all the behaviour of men today is based on that.

I believe that all our so-called heroes should be shown for what they really were: King John of England instigated the writing of the Magna Carta but he was a piece of trash. Alexander the Great was a brilliant man and for a man of 20 to achieve what he did was 'great' but he also killed and raided and rampaged through the lands he conquered without regard for the people he subjected. Julius Caesar, Augustus Caesar, and most of the emperors of Rome were all men first, no matter how heroic they might seem to have been. They were human and we need to see them as such and take them off their pedestals. Make our own minds up about what is right and no matter how our parents try to convince us to believe in God, Mohammed, Jesus, George Bush or Barach Obama, make up your own mind. Use your own common sense. It is wrong, it has always been wrong to play sex games with children and it is very wrong to rape children, and it is wrong to make half the world's population walk a step behind the other half. No matter how many arguments people make for the usefulness of that kind of behaviour, it is just wrong.

We don't need heroes. We are heroes, we're the sperm cell that won the race. We are every one of us winners.

Why must we continue revisting this straw man? Like i said this is a good rejoinder to someone who belives that Mohamed was a moral example or hero or whatever. Nothing else you've said in your post has any bearing on the topic at hand applying moral judgements from our own subjective moral view to someone who lived long before us makes no sense. Its not jsut muslims apparently who hold mohamed to a higher moral standard than they do everyone else.

Sorry but when people see Mohammed as a hero, then it is perfectly correct to point out why he is not worthy of being seen as a hero, anymore than any other human should be held up as a hero.

I am not ever going to stop saying that holding Mohammed or Jesus Christ up as heroes is simply stupid because they are no more worthy of being heroes than anyone else is. Every human is born the same way and every human rots in their grave, no one is more 'special' than anyone else. And no one should base their morality on the morality of someone else, each person should think for themselves. Why the hell is this such a difficult concept. Jesus Christ apparently said the thing that every human knows, "if you don't want it done to you, don't do it to anyone else" therefore if you don't imagine that being raped if fun, why the hell support a hero that tells you it's OK to do it.

Of course it makes sense to learn history and to point out the flaws in history, if we don't point out the mistakes and if we don't condemn them, we will repeat them which is exactly what happens every time a 50 year old man in Iran marries and rapes a 10 year old girl.

Anyone who hold people like that up as a hero needs to rethink their ideas about what constitutes a hero.

This is a stupid argument because anyone with a modicum of morality will agree with me that Mohammed no matter how heroic he is to millions of people was a paedophile child rapist and no amount of defending that his values were valid for his time is going to change the fact that he is a flawed hero. And I will continue to beat the drum and I hope all level headed thinking people wil continued to beat the drum until men stop being allowed to get away with this behaviour.

Madmaili wrote:

katja z wrote:

Madmaili wrote:
I dobut anyone on this forum beleives Mohamed to be a moral standard for our day ethier.

Ah, so you haven't met ray yet

I hope not to

Oh but you should ...

talking with richiedickens over at RDF for a few pages gave me a headache that lasted for days.

Just because reality gives you a headache it's no less real, and ignoring it doesn't make it go away

Madmaili wrote:Why must we continue revisting this straw man?

Er... maybe because it's the subject of the thread? The OP started it off by saying

BigRed wrote:I have no proof or citations for his but I heard somewhere Mohammad was a child molestor? Can anyone back this up? I am not trying to be disrespectful just trying to validate this.

It's clear that there is little doubt that it's true. Unfortunately, it's also clear that Mohammed's behaviour is held up as example of perfection to this day. To the extent that there are recent Muslim religious rulings permitting grown men to behave in unspeakable ways to little girls. Never mind the name, feel the disgust.
Edit:typo

Agrippina wrote:Sorry but when people see Mohammed as a hero, then it is perfectly correct to point out why he is not worthy of being seen as a hero, anymore than any other human should be held up as a hero.

I am not ever going to stop saying that holding Mohammed or Jesus Christ up as heroes is simply stupid because they are no more worthy of being heroes than anyone else is. Every human is born the same way and every human rots in their grave, no one is more 'special' than anyone else. And no one should base their morality on the morality of someone else, each person should think for themselves. Why the hell is this such a difficult concept. Jesus Christ apparently said the thing that every human knows, "if you don't want it done to you, don't do it to anyone else" therefore if you don't imagine that being raped if fun, why the hell support a hero that tells you it's OK to do it.

Of course it makes sense to learn history and to point out the flaws in history, if we don't point out the mistakes and if we don't condemn them, we will repeat them which is exactly what happens every time a 50 year old man in Iran marries and rapes a 10 year old girl.

Anyone who hold people like that up as a hero needs to rethink their ideas about what constitutes a hero.

This is a stupid argument because anyone with a modicum of morality will agree with me that Mohammed no matter how heroic he is to millions of people was a paedophile child rapist and no amount of defending that his values were valid for his time is going to change the fact that he is a flawed hero. And I will continue to beat the drum and I hope all level headed thinking people wil continued to beat the drum until men stop being allowed to get away with this behaviour.

Seriously point to me where i said mohamed was a hero, the notion of a 50 year old man raping a 10 year old girl is a straw man. I never said that was acceptable or excuseable, seriously your not even replying to my posts anymore. Your conducting an imagainery conversation against a position no one is defending. Please go on though I wanna know what else I said and did not mean but soemhow still implied.

Madmaili wrote:Seriously point to me where i said mohamed was a hero,

You didn't, ray did, at great length. I told you, you must meet him or you won't know what's going on here

I'm feeling awefully confused agripinna is usually so nice to me and she's being exceptionally mean today.

See above post for the reason why, and then go and visit the "I am Muslim. Part 2" thread for even more reasons why ...

Madmaili wrote:.

Seriously point to me where i said mohamed was a hero, the notion of a 50 year old man raping a 10 year old girl is a straw man. I never said that was acceptable or excuseable, seriously your not even replying to my posts anymore. Your conducting an imagainery conversation against a position no one is defending. Please go on though I wanna know what else I said and did not mean but soemhow still implied.

You said this:

By the standards of our time yes, by the standards of his time and cultural norms of it , I really don't know someone who knows more about ancient arabia (Or history generally not my strong suit)might be able to give a concret answer on that. I do not know.

It seemed like you wanted to know the history. It definitely sounds like you wanted to know whether his behaviour was normal for the time. So didn't you want to have the norms explained to you?
Then you argued against what I said and dismissed it as irrelevant, after you'd asked about the history. Maybe you shouldn't invite information if you don't want it.

And just BTW I wasn't presenting an argument so your 'strawman fallacy' accusation is a little misplaced I think. I was merely stating some historical facts and saying that historical behaviour doesn't excuse the same behaviour in modern times simply because the historical behaviour was performed by a hero. I then went on to say that maybe the concept of 'heroes' is a stupid one. No arguments, only statements.

Madmaili wrote:I'm feeling awefully confused agripinna is usually so nice to me and she's being exceptionally mean today.

No, not being mean, merely in teacher mode. I like to impart imformation and knowledge. I don't argue, except with ray and other closed-minded believers.

Agrippina wrote: I was merely stating some historical facts and saying that historical behaviour doesn't excuse the same behaviour in modern times simply because the historical behaviour was performed by a hero. I then went on to say that maybe the concept of 'heroes' is a stupid one. No arguments, only statements.

I agree that histoical facts do not excuse behaviour in modern society, I also agree that the concept of hero is a stupid one. I still don't think I approve of dismissing historical relativism. It smacks too much of objective morality to me and strentchs morality beyond what I understand it to be a social contract. This could be a prespective thing.

Madmaili wrote: unless you want to claim that morality is objective and that right and wrong have some ethereal existence that makes pedophilia , rape and murder equally wrong at all times.

I would claim precisely that pedophilia, rape, and murder were equally wrong at all times, although societies have varied in the degree to which they have recognized this.

The issue isn't that what was considered wrong in the past now, the issue is that people alive now want to hold up a 7th century figure who lived by 7th century morals as the example of how everyone should live today. Moral relativism is a big fat rotting and stinking red herring.

Madmaili wrote:

Agrippina wrote: I was merely stating some historical facts and saying that historical behaviour doesn't excuse the same behaviour in modern times simply because the historical behaviour was performed by a hero. I then went on to say that maybe the concept of 'heroes' is a stupid one. No arguments, only statements.

I agree that histoical facts do not excuse behaviour in modern society, I also agree that the concept of hero is a stupid one. I still don't think I approve of dismissing historical relativism. It smacks too much of objective morality to me and strentchs morality beyond what I understand it to be a social contract. This could be a prespective thing.

If there is no objective morality, then how and why should we condemn the brutal misogyny of Saudi Arabia? Shouldn't it be "their social contract, their morality"? Can you shine the sun of your benign tolerance, no, approval, on the mutaween as they chase little girls back into a burning building? After all, there's no objective morality. The filthy little sluts were going to appear in public insufficiently clad. Better that they burn.

That's right let's ignore the lessons from history and the examples in history. Of course the history of Islam is only a good, clean, healthy one, that's why the behaviours that were relevant in the 8th century are still relevant today. Whereas in all the rest of the world's history we can look back and say "we were wrong" and correct the bahviour so that the wrongs are never repeated again. If you live in Saudi Arabia however, you can carry on humping, don't worry about the age of the person involved as long as it's men doing the humping and the objects being humped are female (no age restrictions) and then just because they have the nerve to ask for education, you can let them feel what burning in hell forever is going to feel like.