Brexit

The talks and negotiations.

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Re: Brexit

#2001  Postby ronmcd » Mar 31, 2018 12:29 am

Matt_B wrote:
ronmcd wrote:Okay but my point about no redress was that lying is allowed in election campaigning. You can't take a politician to court for lying, making up numbers, smearing an opponent. Carmichael was found to have been a lying shit in court, but there wasn't anything the court could do with regard to his election. Also worth noting the voters then voted him back in.

I would accept that a referendum is different, making a single policy decision with huge ramifications rather than just electing one liar over another for a short period. But If it's legal to lie politically in elections, and it is, it must be legal in a referendum.

I'm not suggesting a solution, unfortunately.


I'll suggest a solution. Don't ever have a referendum.

Or at least just don't have them over anything likely to matter in the long run.

So .... theoretically ... if a majority of the 5 million population of Scotland wish to become an independent country, and send 59 MPs to Westminster, how exactly could that be achieved in a Parliament of 650 MPs representing 60 million? Without a referendum?
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Re: Brexit

#2003  Postby Tracer Tong » Apr 01, 2018 11:41 am

I don't know if this is the right place to announce this, but I've decided that, in light of the impeccable arguments I've heard in this thread, I will now be campaigning for a reversal of Brexit.

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Re: Brexit

#2004  Postby Thommo » Apr 01, 2018 11:48 am

Which arguments finally sold it for you?
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Re: Brexit

#2005  Postby newolder » Apr 01, 2018 11:50 am

2018/04/01, is my guess.
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Re: Brexit

#2006  Postby Thommo » Apr 01, 2018 12:35 pm

Do you know, that had actually passed me by until now. :lol:
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Re: Brexit

#2007  Postby newolder » Apr 01, 2018 1:00 pm

Image
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Re: Brexit

#2008  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 01, 2018 1:51 pm

Well it is hard to compete with something like Brexit.
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Re: Brexit

#2009  Postby newolder » Apr 03, 2018 12:44 pm

Will the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation give any air time to the continuing saga, I wonder:
...
British electoral law is founded on the principle of a level playing field and controlling campaign spending is the key plank of that. The law states that different campaigns must not work together unless they declare their expenditure jointly. This controls spending limits so that no side can effectively “buy” an election.

But this signed legal document – a document that was never meant to be made public and was leaked by a concerned source – connects both Vote Leave and Leave.EU’s data firms directly to Robert Mercer, the American billionaire who bankrolled Donald Trump.
...

Grauniad, "Follow the data..", source

ETA:
This article is over 11 months old

Ooops! Didn't see that on first pass. Heigh ho.
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Re: Brexit

#2010  Postby Thommo » Apr 03, 2018 12:55 pm

If daily strategy meetings between campaigns don't breach the criteria, it's hard to believe there's a bigger problem there.

I think that's actually the article the Guido Fawkes blog was criticising, by the way.
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Re: Brexit

#2011  Postby ronmcd » Apr 03, 2018 12:56 pm

newolder wrote:Will the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation give any air time to the continuing saga, I wonder:
...
British electoral law is founded on the principle of a level playing field and controlling campaign spending is the key plank of that. The law states that different campaigns must not work together unless they declare their expenditure jointly. This controls spending limits so that no side can effectively “buy” an election.

But this signed legal document – a document that was never meant to be made public and was leaked by a concerned source – connects both Vote Leave and Leave.EU’s data firms directly to Robert Mercer, the American billionaire who bankrolled Donald Trump.
...

Grauniad, "Follow the data..", source

"No, no, don't worry about that - look at that vile anti semitic squirrel over there called Corbyn!"
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Re: Brexit

#2012  Postby Thommo » Apr 03, 2018 1:05 pm

I don't think the two issues have much in common, but Labour has lost (apparently) something like 17,000 members over the issue and numerous key individuals from Momentum are saying Labour has an anti-semitism problem that needs to be urgently addressed.

Here's a story about the issue from today's Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... wish-event
Asked if it was helpful for Corbyn to meet a group whose Twitter account called Israel “a steaming pile of sewage which needs to be properly disposed of”, Lansman said the comment was “certainly not helpful to Jeremy or the cause of opposing antisemitism in the Labour party”.
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Re: Brexit

#2013  Postby Sendraks » Apr 03, 2018 1:41 pm

Thommo wrote:Here's a story about the issue from today's Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... wish-event
Asked if it was helpful for Corbyn to meet a group whose Twitter account called Israel “a steaming pile of sewage which needs to be properly disposed of”, Lansman said the comment was “certainly not helpful to Jeremy or the cause of opposing antisemitism in the Labour party”.


Ah, the old anti-israel = antisemitism nonsense.
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Re: Brexit

#2014  Postby Tracer Tong » Apr 03, 2018 2:11 pm

Thommo wrote:I don't think the two issues have much in common, but Labour has lost (apparently) something like 17,000 members over the issue and numerous key individuals from Momentum are saying Labour has an anti-semitism problem that needs to be urgently addressed.

Here's a story about the issue from today's Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... wish-event
Asked if it was helpful for Corbyn to meet a group whose Twitter account called Israel “a steaming pile of sewage which needs to be properly disposed of”, Lansman said the comment was “certainly not helpful to Jeremy or the cause of opposing antisemitism in the Labour party”.


Yeah, that was a fairly imprudent decision. I'm not quite sure what he was thinking.
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Re: Brexit

#2015  Postby ronmcd » Apr 03, 2018 2:15 pm

Tracer Tong wrote:
Thommo wrote:I don't think the two issues have much in common, but Labour has lost (apparently) something like 17,000 members over the issue and numerous key individuals from Momentum are saying Labour has an anti-semitism problem that needs to be urgently addressed.

Here's a story about the issue from today's Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... wish-event
Asked if it was helpful for Corbyn to meet a group whose Twitter account called Israel “a steaming pile of sewage which needs to be properly disposed of”, Lansman said the comment was “certainly not helpful to Jeremy or the cause of opposing antisemitism in the Labour party”.


Yeah, that was a fairly imprudent decision. I'm not quite sure what he was thinking.

What I found fascinating was reading the BBC page on the story this morning. Norman "my sense is" Smith wrote something along the lines that Corbyn couldn't really be criticised for what was a normal visit to a Jewish group locally for one of their events. But taken with everything that happened recently ...

That appears to have been removed from the BBC article this afternoon and Corbyn apparently can be criticised for it, according to Norman.

Amusing.
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Re: Brexit

#2016  Postby ronmcd » Apr 03, 2018 2:16 pm

Thommo wrote:I don't think the two issues have much in common, but Labour has lost (apparently) something like 17,000 members over the issue and numerous key individuals from Momentum are saying Labour has an anti-semitism problem that needs to be urgently addressed.

Here's a story about the issue from today's Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... wish-event
Asked if it was helpful for Corbyn to meet a group whose Twitter account called Israel “a steaming pile of sewage which needs to be properly disposed of”, Lansman said the comment was “certainly not helpful to Jeremy or the cause of opposing antisemitism in the Labour party”.

I dont think the two issues are connected, I just think the media is more interested in Corbyn and the attempt to take him down. (rightfully i guess. Its a story, even if I think it's bonkers)
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Re: Brexit

#2017  Postby mrjonno » Apr 03, 2018 2:18 pm

Ah, the old anti-israel = antisemitism nonsense.


Calling for a nation to cease to exist that is majority Jewish seems pretty anti-Semitic to me and more importantly to the general Jewish community it seems

The reality its quite possible to criticise Israeli government without being bigotted however the Labour party seems to be quite incapable of it.

Here is an idea for Labour don't mention Israel or Palestine period, they are far off countries that are irrelevant to the UK

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Re: Brexit

#2018  Postby ronmcd » Apr 03, 2018 2:23 pm

:dunno:

https://labourlist.org/2018/04/why-im-g ... das-seder/
Last night I attended a Seder to celebrate the Jewish festival of Pesach (Passover), held in Islington by a group called Jewdas. Before the fourth cup of wine had even been drunk, a story appeared on the right-wing Guido Fawkes blog, painting those who attended as extremists and the Twittersphere went into meltdown. Why? Because Jeremy Corbyn came to celebrate with us.

Jeremy could not have been a more gracious guest. Anyone who knows anything about the Passover Seder knows that it is not a quick event. It lasted over four hours, with Jeremy an active participant from start to finish, leading the prayer for Elijah’s cup, singing along with us as best he could, and even bringing along beetroot from his own allotment for our (vegan) Seder plate. He made an effort to speak to anyone who wanted to speak to him, about anything, and stayed long after the event to make sure that no one who wanted a picture left without one despite being obviously tired.

Now, with everything happening in the Labour Party, including Jeremy’s own inability in the past to identify and challenge antisemitism, and the party’s institutional failing to get a grip on it, you would think this would be something to be commended. While Jewdas are a left-wing group of predominately young Jewish people, those wishing to demonise Jeremy Corbyn have painted a deeply offensive and misrepresentative picture of the group as somehow antithetical to the “mainstream Jewish community”.

Yet many of last night’s attendees are absolutely part of the “mainstream community”. A number of us, myself included, are paying synagogue members and active in communal life, but we also recognise the failings of many of our communal institutions and communities – particularly when it comes to gender and queer identities, as well as the issue of Israel and the extent to which we do or don’t identify with it as part of our Judaism. It is untrue to say that there is any one narrative, political or otherwise, within Jewdas. It is a collective space where we can have uncomfortable conversations – what unites us all is the fact that we are Jewish.

From conversations with many young Jewish people in the Labour Party and the wider left, the primary grievance in recent years has been that too often we feel like we need to be apologetic for being Jewish in left-wing spaces, and apologetic for being left-wing in Jewish spaces. At last night’s Seder, we could unapologetically be both. It was a space where no one felt like they needed to be on guard, and we could just enjoy our festival celebrations for what they were, and where no one was priced out of participating. Anyone who was at last night’s event can tell you that it was everything you want in a good Seder: well-natured, humorous, boisterous at times, and accessible to those covering a whole spectrum of degrees of observance and Hebrew/Yiddish language skills.

It is not for non-Jewish people, in criticising Corbyn’s attendance, to determine what is and isn’t a legitimate expression of the Jewish faith. Many of the criticisms I’ve seen are themselves anti-Semitic. For those in the community who want to paint Jeremy’s attendance as an act of provocation, rather than an attempt to listen, engage, and share our festival with us, it’s actually just alienating many young Jewish people further and validating Jewdas’ very existence.

The Jewish community is not one monolithic bloc; part of its beauty is in its plurality and diversity. It’s absolutely right that, particularly when some community gatekeepers are refusing to meet with Corbyn, he nonetheless shows willingness to engage with the community at all levels, to listen and to learn, and be a gracious guest. If you want to see this for yourself, do as Jewdas did and simply invite him.

Charlotte Nichols is Women’s Officer of Young Labour.
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Re: Brexit

#2019  Postby Sendraks » Apr 03, 2018 2:28 pm

mrjonno wrote:Calling for a nation to cease to exist that is majority Jewish seems pretty anti-Semitic to me and more importantly to the general Jewish community it seems


Yes, that it "seems" that way to you and others, is indeed the problem.

mrjonno wrote:
The reality its quite possible to criticise Israeli government without being bigotted however the Labour party seems to be quite incapable of it.


Well no. As has been demonstrated time and time again, it is not possible to level criticism at the Israeli government without someone leaping on the "anti-semite" bandwagon.
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Re: Brexit

#2020  Postby ronmcd » Apr 03, 2018 2:39 pm

Corbyn is being attacked by Jewish groups who dislike his campaigning for Palestinians, by the right wing newspapers, and well known human rights and anti racism campaigners like ... Guido Fawkes. Ha ha. But seriously.
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