Andrew4Handel wrote:The Palestinians are the local Arabs that failed to destroy Israel in 1948 along with Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Trans Jordan, Yemen, Lebanon etc. They have been playing victim ever since whilst still trying to destroy Israel and I have less than zero sympathy for them.

1948? It's 2024, that sounds like punishing people for the sins of their fathers/grandfathers. 1987? It's 2024. To quote from your link "This "new(2017) document has been in the making for four years (…) This document reflects our position for now (…) The old charter was a product of its era, 30 years ago. We live in a different world today"."
2017 is 7 years ago. That's starting to fall out of recent history, especially when the Palestinian population is so young.
You have less than zero sympathy for them, that's fine for you, but others have more than zero sympathy.

Andrew4Handel wrote:They weaponise and indoctrinate their children who are better of not existing in that death cult culture.

This is cruelty, in my opinion. Children are better off existing. Especially when they already exist.
Not to mention victim-blaming a mother for the death of her babies to start out your post. Have all Israeli births ceased since October 7? No.

Andrew4Handel wrote:

Calilasseia wrote:Meanwhile, there's NO excuse for this ...

Why is she trying to have children in an overcrowded war zone run by Anti-Semitic terrorists holding terrified young Israeli women hostage who have been subjected to unimaginable horrors.

<rest of bigoted garbage snipped>

You really are scraping the barrel here, aren't you Andrew?

Oh, you want to talk about incitement to hatred, do you?

Let me remind you of some much more recent examples. Such as the fact that IDF soldiers have been ordering T-shirts featuring an image of a pregnant woman in a burka overlaid with crosshairs, bearing the legend "one shot two kills", and are wearing those T-shirts right now. Indeed, that T-shirt has been in circulation for some time, as this article notes, but it's acquired a particualrly chilling resonance in the present.

Then, of course, we have the obscene spectacle of no less a person than Benjamin Netanyahu, who I remind you is the current Prime Minister of Israel, presenting a disgusting public speech in front of Israeli television cameras, describing the IDF as "heroes", and alluding to their operations being akin to the extermniation of the Amalekites mentioned in the Old Testament, as covered by THWOTH here. That dates from 7th November 2023

Or how about this from November 8th, 2023 from an Israeli MP:

Israeli officials must invest all their energy "in one thing: erasing all of Gaza from the face of the Earth."

And from the same article, this:

Former military officer Eliyahu Yossian said the IDF must enter Gaza "with the aim of revenge, zero morality, maximum corpses," and told Channel 14 in Israel on Monday that "there is no population in Gaza, there are 2.5 million terrorists."

Source

Haven't you a stone to crawl under?

The_Metatron wrote:Are you really here trying to tell us that the Muslim claim of god telling them the land is theirs is incorrect? But somehow Israel’s identical claim is correct? The idea never occurred to you that both groups are totally full of shit in this regard?

There's a chance of some progress, here, at least in yours and my mutual understanding of one another. It's actually a pretty safe inference that this IS a religious conflict, and not (at least not simply) about land. However, the way our press tends to view this conflict, focus is on grievance (the failure to erect a Palestinian state, and blaming Israel, when voices in the Muslim community strongly rejected proposals when two-state solution has been proposed). Since the only political solution that would make the fanatics happy is one that obliterates Israel, we have to seek members of the Muslim community who will work to put a stop to that kind of rhetoric. Moderate Muslims, together with the pro-Palestinian' contingent now a global "thing", are scared shitless of the radicals, the jihadists. I would say the Palestinians in general deserve better, but minimally lack the cojones to stand up to the jihadists. More of them than you may care to believe are jihadists, not because they have a grievance about land, but because they have a grievance about religion.

The Hamas charter announces a dedication to exterminate every infidel in the "holy land" (yes, that's what it's called by several major religious faiths) but they're the ones who'd be happy to exterminate anything they consider infidel for their cause. Some of them don't want to stop there, either and you will also hear their voices in the video I link below. You just have to listen to them, and to the children (yes, indeed, even they!) indoctrinated into their holy war, though you may require a translation which I suppose you'll just have to accept.

Consider Oren's selection of Palestinian voices, minimally commented upon, though you may be predisposed to doubt its sincerity:



"Death is inevitable; why not die a martyr?" Yep, somebody's mother talks like that. Both groups are full of shit? Sure, at least the ones who say the land is their gift from God. One can live the sort of atheist life we enjoy anywhere in Israel the rockets are not falling. Can we enjoy those same rights in any Muslim enclave? Me, I'm not looking forward to trying that one.

I've followed the vicissitudes of this thread (and the "debate" elsewhere) over several months without commenting. There didn't seem much point in adding anything as people seemed entrenched in their viewpoints. But the two posts above seem to be addressing some of the core issues here.
My take on it is pretty reductive: Using bloodline descent as an omnirelevant criteria for social organization is a really poor idea. Using supernaturalist claims as an omnirelevant criteria for social organization is likewise a really poor idea. Join the two together in the same place and you have a recipe for disaster.

But what can I say or do? There seem to be a large number of people who place bloodline descent and/or supernaturalism at the very core of their identity and their social being. I personally dissatend to both in my daily life, but suggesting that others do likewise can provoke some fairly negative responses.

don't get me started wrote:I've followed the vicissitudes of this thread (and the "debate" elsewhere) over several months without commenting. There didn't seem much point in adding anything as people seemed entrenched in their viewpoints. But the two posts above seem to be addressing some of the core issues here.
My take on it is pretty reductive: Using bloodline descent as an omnirelevant criteria for social organization is a really poor idea. Using supernaturalist claims as an omnirelevant criteria for social organization is likewise a really poor idea. Join the two together in the same place and you have a recipe for disaster.

But what can I say or do? There seem to be a large number of people who place bloodline descent and/or supernaturalism at the very core of their identity and their social being. I personally dissatend to both in my daily life, but suggesting that others do likewise can provoke some fairly negative responses.

My understanding of the attitudes of ordinary Palestinians (say, in Ramallah) is that they find themselves "oppressed" by Israelis. This is the grievance. Unfortunately, the interviews did not probe what remedy they will choose. I can imagine that one of two possibilities is most likely. One is a two-state solution (with full sovereignty, Palestinian government, no Israeli interference or incursion) and the other is simply for Israel to disappear. The interviewees do not openly shout for the extermination of Israel, so someone needs to ask whether a two-state solution is satisfactory. However, it is more than likely that more than a few will feel "oppressed" as long as any "people of the Book" are anywhere in the region, and there is a component of unsavory "here-first-ism" to all that.

Sadly, there are fanatics among the Palestinians, and not just a few. They will pursue military-style attacks on Israelis regardless of expected retaliation. The ongoing situation is just what we see. A two-state solution will not suit them, and attacks similar to that of October 7 will continue, with Israeli retaliations that many outsiders, myself included, will find excessive. Nevertheless, simply wishing that people drop their hatreds, resentments, grievances, or whatever we could call them is not something I will offer seriously as a peace proposal.

We've all certainly heard of the concept of the "secular Jew", someone with an ethnic identity indeed tied to bloodline descent but with no theology underpinning it. Under ordinary circumstances, I would stand with you, dgms, and critique such identity politics, but then I'm going to apply it pretty broadly, and not just to Jews and Palestinians. Somewhere down the line, that's going to go off the rails of uneven application. Anyway, whether someone even drops an identifcation as "secular Jew", there are plenty of other people who identify as (let's call them) neo-Nazis, and who are ready to apply bloodline descent to "Jews", regardless of whether or not their targets apply it to themselves, when they decide to "round them all up". Of course, this is what the word "anti-semitism" is in its extreme form, and there are gradations away from that which we both acknowledge. So when you wish for everyone simply to live in peace and drop all their identity politics, kindly ask the neo-Nazis to do so as well. To realize the full benefit of such a cross-cultural encounter, try it in person.

The_Metatron wrote:Life is full of such tripartite choices: accept the situation, fight it, or abandon it. In truth, that trilemma is what put me where I now live. It once informed the career path I chose to take. All of those choices may not be possible. There is a fourth option, avoid situations that force such a choice. Not always a possibility, either.

Abandoning/avoiding it is something I would also recommend to both sides. I'd even recommend that to neo-Nazis who, to be honest, can't claim to have a dog in the Palestine fight but are quite happy for any Palestinian success in wiping out Jews. I'm not sure how to confront them about their sentiments, but always willing to entertain any expertise that can be brought to bear on the problem.

I have the impression that diplomacy is dead, not just regarding Palestine/Israel, but all around the world. We have a lot of competing parties that want everything their way, and people who suggest compromising are hated by all these parties. Everybody's playing tough guy politics and the public in general is whipped into a frenzy.

and the ´30s haven’t even started
at least we where able to skip WW1.1
didn’t skip the pandemic though.

An Israeli point of view ... to add to the ever-mounting propaganda wars.
https://truthofthemiddleeast.com/dina-r ... en-letter/

At the core this just seems to be what happens in an Ernstfall, when two parties have conflicting objectives that they can't compromise on. Israel wants Israel to rule the whole country, Palestine wants Palestine to rule that country. I sympathize with this lady who says the leftist academics have normalized Hamas, they conveniently ignore that Israel is surrounded by some fucking determined nazis (I have come to recognize much of the left in our countries is now really fucked up, almost as bad as the right, and it is foolish to expect a lot of wisdom from them). However if this lady was really honest she would have to admit the Israelis never really gave the Palestinians the right to have their own viable country either, and have committed genocidal atrocities too.

If there is ever to be a solution, I think it has to entail some deal wherein both parties agree to some kind of demilitarization, where both parties have to compromise and the safety of civilians is guaranteed by an international alliance, and Iran stops arming Hezbollah and Hamas. However right now it seems Israel will never loosen its iron grip, and Hamas will never still their mad bloodlust.

The_Piper wrote:
Have all Israeli births ceased since October 7? No.

Israel protects it's civilians and children. They have bomb shelters to hide from Hamas rockets. They have the Iron Dome air defense system.

They spend a lot of money on defense and can generally offer their children Jewish, Arabic or otherwise a decent quality of life.

Hamas and it's supporters who voted them in wasted billions of dollars of aid and support on a terror infrastructure. Starting conflicts with Israel leading to war, destruction then rebuilding. They spent zero money on bomb shelters and protecting the children.

There are several videos of mothers on line saying they won't their children to grow up to be martyrs. There are at least two different babies photographed dressed as suicide bombers. All sorts of nasty indoctrination into hate, anti-Semitism and mindless violence.

Ideally nobody would procreate but I think it is particularly despicable to bring a child up into a continuous war and create a perpetual victim, brainwash them and ensure their suffering and martyrdom.

They can't have children and blame Israel for the outcomes. If I was stupid enough to have chose to have children they would be entirely my own responsibility.

The_Metatron wrote:
Fuckin’ “Arabs”, eh? You even bolded and underlined the word to show your contempt for them, as if they are somehow less than human.

Completely wrong and showing a lack of reading comprehension.

I Underlined Arabs to point out there is not a Palestinian people. They are migratory Arabs and not indigenous and never called themselves Palestinian. There was never a Palestinian state governed by a Palestinian people.

Mandatory Palestinian was a British entity and the British called people there Palestinian Arabs and Palestinian Jews.

People use maps and footage of this mandate era and claim it was a Palestinian state when it was no such thing and even post photos of Palestinian mandate coins that clearly have Hebrew writing on and post pictures from thriving Jewish communities claiming they are Palestinians.

It is just relentless propaganda.

Really how is it relevant wether they are "Palestinians" or "Arabs from Palestine"?

The_Metatron wrote:
You religious people do like your lies, don’t you?

I'm not remotely religious. I am an agnostic, antinatalist who believes having children is the sole cause of all the suffering in the world and unethical. I think a a Universe from nowhere is less plausible than a created universe.

Now I have clarified that for you let me get on to this:

Read parts of this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians#Etymology

During the early 2nd century CE, Syria Palaestina became the official administrative name in a move viewed by scholars as an attempt by emperor Hadrian to disassociate Jews from the land as punishment for the Bar Kokhba revolt.[75][76][77] Jacobson suggested the change to be rationalized by the fact that the new province was far larger.

Khalil Beidas (1874–1949) was the first person to self-describe Palestine's Arabs as "Palestinians" in the preface of a book he translated in 1898.

"During the Mandatory Palestine period, the term "Palestinian" was used to refer to all people residing there, regardless of religion or ethnicity, and those granted citizenship by the British Mandatory authorities were granted "Palestinian citizenship".[87] Other examples include the use of the term Palestine Regiment to refer to the Jewish Infantry Brigade Group of the British Army during World War II, (....)"

"The origins of Palestinians are complex and diverse. The region was not originally Arab – its Arabization was a consequence of the gradual inclusion of Palestine within the rapidly expanding Islamic Caliphates established by Arabian tribes and their local allies. "

The_Metatron wrote: Explain how “Jews are the indigenous Population”.

The reason the Jews were living a Diaspora for thousands of years is because they were expelled from then area by the Romans.

Where do you believe the Jews are indigenous to? It is a part of the bible and Koran that the Jews are from the region and the Bible mentions places like Bethlehem and Jerusalem. Al Aqsa mosque was built on the Temple Mount the most holy site in Judaism.

There is the Hebrew language itself and the archaeological record.

It is a unique situation. The Area was fought over in The Crusades and Population displaced regularly. It was colonised and controlled by different people eventually ending up in the hands of the British after they defeated the ottomans in World War 2.

In my opinion nobody can own land or anything else and that is merely a fiction. You can only keep land and resources by force. When there is a huge amount of land and few people it doesn't matter but with less land and more people there is going to be conflict over resources.

It is either cooperation or war. And I would advocate stewardship and taking care of resources rather than exploiting, ruining and overpopulating the land. I support any one or any country espousing these values.

The_Piper wrote:To quote from your link "This "new(2017) document has been in the making for four years (…) This document reflects our position for now (…) The old charter was a product of its era, 30 years ago. We live in a different world today"."

Is this regarding the Hamas charter?

Honestly nobody should normalize Hamas. They're genocidal maniacs, no different from nazis.