I do appreciate where you're coming from, and as I say, I am 100% behind any bid for separation from the UK if and when Scotland so chooses - although, selfishly, I'd prefer it to remain part of the U.K.

But there's a paradigm to nationalism that is always one way, you see it in public discourse in nations all round the world, and the language of it is interesting.

For example,...

When the Brexit referendum was announced Sturgeon made clear the issue would indeed be revisited if Scotland was pulled out of the EU against our will, and joined forces with others from across the parties arguing to remain.

Who was pulled out of the EU against our will?

There's a problematic conflation between two distinct ours here - one group supports independence from the UK, and the other supports remaining part of the EU. But they aren't the same group, and while Scotland is part of the U.K,, then the 'our' who wishes to remain part of the UK necessarily includes the views of other nations' citizens too, thus factually 'our' vote was to leave the E.U.

But one has to assume the nationalist perspective wherein 'we' (Scottish people) already are an independent political entity separate from the UK and their votes in order to consider Scotland having been pulled out of the EU against Scotland's will.

From the non-nationalist perspective, I would imagine that most people simply don't think of the division as being along national lines, but as being political. Wales voted to leave, Northern Ireland voted to remain... but that's the aggregate of each, while in every nation (England too) a sizeable percentage held the exact opposite position to the majority.

I just don't think it's as simple as independence, and I don't think it'd help anyone. One way independence just means being consigned only to having hammer and approaching all problems the same way. I think that's probably how Sturgeon will be remembered abroad.

But anyway, to come back to the point, the actual group of people who could rightly be described as being 'pulled out of the EU against their will' were all the people who voted to remain, regardless of their home nation. And people like me who weren't eligible to vote!

I can remember the "Better Together" campaign during the Scottish Independence referendum and the absolute top #1, #2 and #3 issues were an independent Scotland's relationship to the EU.

#1 There was no guarantee that Scotland would be allowed automatic entry to the EU - it was likely they would have to wait an extended period (several years) to join.
#2 An independent Scotland would therefore not be allowed to join the Euro and would be tied to the "English" Pound (and monetary policy with no say).
#3 Any future negotiations with the EU would be heavily influenced by Scotland's closest EU neighbour.

This tilted many (including myself) into thinking Scotland would be better off within the union and remaining in the EU. I'd go so far as to say this was the only reason the Independence vote went the way it did.

Then England (overwhelmingly NOT Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland) voted to leave the EU.

It's against that background that the Independence campaign continued since it is very much a campaign to re-join the EU given that was the whole reason Scotland remained in the Union. It's not the sole reason, but I'd contend it is the major reason. Sturgeon was very much following the will of her constituents in this and can't really be slated for it.

Edit: Incidentally, it's worth noting that it's not just the Scots pissed off with London and the SE centric governance. Plenty of people north of Watford Gap feel there's a complete disconnect between the London government and what things are like for us plebs in the Northern wastelands.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/568 ... by-nation/

Just to note that Wales voted to leave.

England: 47 / 53
Scotland: 62 / 38
Wales: 47.5 / 52.5
Northern Ireland: 56 / 44

Tortured_Genius wrote:Edit: Incidentally, it's worth noting that it's not just the Scots pissed off with London and the SE centric governance. Plenty of people north of Watford Gap feel there's a complete disconnect between the London government and what things are like for us plebs in the Northern wastelands.

This is essentially my consideration, too.

Its also not just people north of London, but a fairly sizeable minority of southerners who want things to be different. A UK without Scotland is also a massive increase in relative power for Conservatives.

Better Together is meant both ways!

Do you think if [say] the north of England became a separate country and politically/economically independent from southern England, that things would improve for northerners? I doubt it. In fact, if that happened I would envisage a future scenario in which [say] the east of northern England would become hostile to the west and would eventually want independence from it. And after that, a scenario in which [say] the south of the east of northern England would become hostile to the north...

Etc. etc..

I'm not a big fan of ever-divisible seats of power. They do not solve the issues that they promise to solve and do not bring harmony. What is the point of such politics on a small island other than to fuel the pride of a flawed concept: nationalism.

This is the 21st century and we should be seeking more and more to become global citizens with fewer and fewer reasons to divide us and cause hostilities. We certainly shouldn't be clinging on to identities forged for us in medieval times and beyond, no way.

jamest* wrote:slippery slopey straw man

you sound entirely unaware of the history of the united kingdom.

jamest wrote:This is the 21st century and we should be seeking more and more to become global citizens with fewer and fewer reasons to divide us and cause hostilities. We certainly shouldn't be clinging on to identities forged for us in medieval times and beyond, no way.

please remind me: what was your stance towards brexit?

edit: found it…

jamest wrote:[…] fuck the EU.

Buyer's remorse jamest?

The EU/Europe wasn't a nation.

Spearthrower wrote:
Who was pulled out of the EU against our will?

There's a problematic conflation between two distinct ours here - one group supports independence from the UK, and the other supports remaining part of the EU. But they aren't the same group, and while Scotland is part of the U.K,, then the 'our' who wishes to remain part of the UK necessarily includes the views of other nations' citizens too, thus factually 'our' vote was to leave the E.U.

But one has to assume the nationalist perspective wherein 'we' (Scottish people) already are an independent political entity separate from the UK and their votes in order to consider Scotland having been pulled out of the EU against Scotland's will.

From the non-nationalist perspective, I would imagine that most people simply don't think of the division as being along national lines, but as being political. Wales voted to leave, Northern Ireland voted to remain... but that's the aggregate of each, while in every nation (England too) a sizeable percentage held the exact opposite position to the majority.

I accept and understand the viewpoint. Factually yes "we' voted to leave, as a UK-wide franchise. Of course.

However on other votes and issues the national Scottish franchise is relevant and decides critical policy decisions, the very existence of the Scottish Parliament and devolved competences proves that. So it's not unreasonable to view such an important issue through that prism, even if it has no legal weight.

We were also threatened with being excluded from the EU if we voted for indpendence in 2014, and told in no uncertain terms that voting NO was the way to retain EU member ship.

Scotland was indeed removed from the EU against the majority view of the Scottish electorate. It was done on a constituency basis, so there can be no doubt about that. The fact it was a UK wide vote does not change that fact.

Tortured_Genius wrote:I can remember the "Better Together" campaign during the Scottish Independence referendum and the absolute top #1, #2 and #3 issues were an independent Scotland's relationship to the EU.

#1 There was no guarantee that Scotland would be allowed automatic entry to the EU - it was likely they would have to wait an extended period (several years) to join.
#2 An independent Scotland would therefore not be allowed to join the Euro and would be tied to the "English" Pound (and monetary policy with no say).
#3 Any future negotiations with the EU would be heavily influenced by Scotland's closest EU neighbour.

This tilted many (including myself) into thinking Scotland would be better off within the union and remaining in the EU. I'd go so far as to say this was the only reason the Independence vote went the way it did.

Then England (overwhelmingly NOT Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland) voted to leave the EU.

It's against that background that the Independence campaign continued since it is very much a campaign to re-join the EU given that was the whole reason Scotland remained in the Union. It's not the sole reason, but I'd contend it is the major reason. Sturgeon was very much following the will of her constituents in this and can't really be slated for it.

Edit: Incidentally, it's worth noting that it's not just the Scots pissed off with London and the SE centric governance. Plenty of people north of Watford Gap feel there's a complete disconnect between the London government and what things are like for us plebs in the Northern wastelands.

Said better than I could.

(Although I think a majority in Wales also voted to leave)

jamest wrote:Do you think if [say] the north of England became a separate country and politically/economically independent from southern England ...

We are where we are. Which is a union of countries, with in the case of Scotland (critically) a unique legal system, education system, local government and healthcare structure, etc. It can't be wished away, and even those who wish to remain as part of the UK (largely - not all) see Scotland in those terms.

jamest wrote:This is the 21st century and we should be seeking more and more to become global citizens with fewer and fewer reasons to divide us and cause hostilities. We certainly shouldn't be clinging on to identities forged for us in medieval times and beyond, no way.

An independent Scotland in EU, or even part of the single market through the EEA, would be far more global in outlook than the UK as we are now, isolated xenophobic and bitter. edit - and economically fucked

jamest wrote:The EU/Europe wasn't a nation.

But Scotland and Wales once were nations.
Before they got colonised by England.

And now Scotland wants it’s sovereignty back.
Last poll they got „bait & switched“ by England with „we‘re all part of the EU anyways“.

ronmcd wrote:
An independent Scotland in EU, or even part of the single market through the EEA, would be far more global in outlook than the UK as we are now, isolated xenophobic and bitter. edit - and economically fucked

Scottish people appear [generally] to me to be the bitterest of all, and there is much more to having a global outlook than being part of a members-only free market.

Agi Hammerthief wrote:

jamest wrote:The EU/Europe wasn't a nation.

But Scotland and Wales once were nations.
Before they got colonised by England.

Wales got conquered by England nigh on 800 years ago, and Scotland and England's union was through monarchical personal union, with the monarchs in question being Scottish, not English.

jamest wrote:
Scottish people appear [generally] to me to be the bitterest of all, and there is much more to having a global outlook than being part of a members-only free market.

Let's extrapolate from anecdote.

jamest wrote:

ronmcd wrote:
An independent Scotland in EU, or even part of the single market through the EEA, would be far more global in outlook than the UK as we are now, isolated xenophobic and bitter. edit - and economically fucked

Scottish people appear [generally] to me to be the bitterest of all, and there is much more to having a global outlook than being part of a members-only free market.

It's interesting, you'll note I didn't say "English people" were isolated xenophobic and bitter. I said we, the UK. Nobody can really argue I think that our Tory governments since 2010 and pro Brexit campaigners such as Boris Farage etc didn't succeed in encouraging xenophobia and anti foreign sentiment, leading to the brexit vote. Things have become worse since.

This includes Scotland.

But I'll gladly accept I'm bitter about all of us across these islands being dragged out of EU by idiots and liars.

Spearthrower wrote:

Agi Hammerthief wrote:

jamest wrote:The EU/Europe wasn't a nation.

But Scotland and Wales once were nations.
Before they got colonised by England.

Wales got conquered by England nigh on 800 years ago, and Scotland and England's union was through monarchical personal union, with the monarchs in question being Scottish, not English.

I wasn’t talking about the political process of „take two, make one“.
And if I remember correctly the monarch in question was the son of the queen who got her head removed, because the other one didn’t spawn.
But I might be misinformed.

Agi Hammerthief wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

Agi Hammerthief wrote:

jamest wrote:The EU/Europe wasn't a nation.

But Scotland and Wales once were nations.
Before they got colonised by England.

Wales got conquered by England nigh on 800 years ago, and Scotland and England's union was through monarchical personal union, with the monarchs in question being Scottish, not English.

I wasn’t talking about the political process of „take two, make one“.
And if I remember correctly the monarch in question was the son of the queen who got her head removed, because the other one didn’t spawn.
But I might be misinformed.

The history of that period is fascinating and the actual linkage between the English and Scottish thrones really all started when Henry VIII's sister, Margaret Tudor, married King James IV early in the 16th century. After Elizabeth 1st died, James VI of Scotland became James 1st of England in 1603 due to his ancestral connection with Henry VII of England (Henry VIII's dad).

You cannot be a proud nationalist and a true (for reasons other than economic) globalist at the same time.

I would never have voted to leave the EU if the ideal was to create an actual European nation/identity, but that was never on the cards afaik. However, there is definitely a British/UK identity and most of us have ancestors from all parts of the UK. The only thing dividing us really is this determination to cling on to obsolete ideas of who we are from medieval times.

If the Scottish people want to leave the union for the aforementioned reason then let them, but I believe it would be an economic disaster for them.

ronmcd wrote:

jamest wrote:

ronmcd wrote:
An independent Scotland in EU, or even part of the single market through the EEA, would be far more global in outlook than the UK as we are now, isolated xenophobic and bitter. edit - and economically fucked

Scottish people appear [generally] to me to be the bitterest of all, and there is much more to having a global outlook than being part of a members-only free market.

It's interesting, you'll note I didn't say "English people" were isolated xenophobic and bitter. I said we, the UK. Nobody can really argue I think that our Tory governments since 2010 and pro Brexit campaigners such as Boris Farage etc didn't succeed in encouraging xenophobia and anti foreign sentiment, leading to the brexit vote. Things have become worse since.

This includes Scotland.

But I'll gladly accept I'm bitter about all of us across these islands being dragged out of EU by idiots and liars.

Most people who voted to remain part of the EU didn't do so because of their love for Europeans, any more than most people who voted to leave did so for their hatred of Europeans. That's just a red herring used by the bitter losers to justify their resentment.

I, and undoubtedly the majority of people who voted like me, did so for reasons associated with sovereignty and economics/logistics. And I'm almost certain that the majority of remainers voted for purely selfish economic reasons, not for any noble ideal associated with a European identity.