The New And Coming Plague

For discussion of politics, and what's going on in the world today.

Moderators: kiore, Blip, The_Metatron

Re: The New And Coming Plague

#3421  Postby Spearthrower » May 21, 2021 4:45 am

Shame none of it's true.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 33854
Age: 48
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: The New And Coming Plague

#3422  Postby quas » May 21, 2021 5:02 am

"The government can actually afford to pay people a living wage just for sitting at home without imploding or going bankrupt."

This is not true?
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
User avatar
quas
 
Posts: 2997

Print view this post

Re: The New And Coming Plague

#3423  Postby Agi Hammerthief » May 21, 2021 5:11 am

the implication that the government is actually doing that probably isn’t.
* my (modified) emphasis ( or 'interpretation' )
User avatar
Agi Hammerthief
 
Posts: 3208
Age: 50
Male

Country: .de
Germany (de)
Print view this post

Re: The New And Coming Plague

#3424  Postby Spearthrower » May 21, 2021 5:54 am

quas wrote:"The government can actually afford to pay people a living wage just for sitting at home without imploding or going bankrupt."

This is not true?



Quas, think about it eh?

Where does the government get funds to pay people a living wage for sitting at home?

The primary source of government revenue is from personal income tax.

So explain how this works.

A government taxes the income of its people, but the people's only income is the money the government gives them 'for free', so the government ceases collecting tax revenue. How long can it then afford to keep paying people a 'living wage' before the government runs out of money?

In reality, what's happening is that governments are going into debt here in order to minimize transmission and protect the populace. Most governments consider this fiscally preferable than the costs associated with mass sickness and death (just considering financial elements, not moral). In reality, governments would eventually go bankrupt - and that would happen when the interest on their debt outstrips potential revenues.

So no, it's not true. Governments cannot afford to do this; it's an emergency measure, not a genuine option for restructuring the way the economy operates.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 33854
Age: 48
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: The New And Coming Plague

#3425  Postby quas » May 21, 2021 7:36 am

The govt has never been and never will be able to afford going into debt in order to give away money to everyone. Except when they can...

The walls of reality has crashed down around you, and you are about to be unplugged from The Matrix.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
User avatar
quas
 
Posts: 2997

Print view this post

Re: The New And Coming Plague

#3426  Postby SafeAsMilk » May 21, 2021 6:07 pm

quas wrote:The govt has never been and never will be able to afford going into debt in order to give away money to everyone. Except when they can...

The walls of reality has crashed down around you, and you are about to be unplugged from The Matrix.

I'm guessing you're the sort of person who keeps their credit cards maxed out at all times, just because they can.
"They call it the American dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it." -- George Carlin
User avatar
SafeAsMilk
 
Name: Makes Fails
Posts: 14774
Age: 44
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: The New And Coming Plague

#3427  Postby Spearthrower » May 21, 2021 7:50 pm

quas wrote:The govt has never been and never will be able to afford going into debt in order to give away money to everyone. Except when they can...


Except when there's an international epidemic that could kill so many people that it would massively outweigh the financial cost of paying people a basic wage that coincides with needing them to isolate and stay home.

And everyone understands that this is an emergency measure.



quas wrote:The walls of reality has crashed down around you, and you are about to be unplugged from The Matrix.


Your natural inclination towards nonsensical woo invariably surpasses your ability to reason.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 33854
Age: 48
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: The New And Coming Plague

#3428  Postby SafeAsMilk » May 21, 2021 8:40 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
quas wrote:The govt has never been and never will be able to afford going into debt in order to give away money to everyone. Except when they can...


Except when there's an international epidemic that could kill so many people that it would massively outweigh the financial cost of paying people a basic wage that coincides with needing them to isolate and stay home.

And everyone understands that this is an emergency measure.

No no no, they gave away their ability to pay everyone (well, 14% in the USA anyway) for life for no reason at all! Gotcha, gubb'mint!
"They call it the American dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it." -- George Carlin
User avatar
SafeAsMilk
 
Name: Makes Fails
Posts: 14774
Age: 44
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: The New And Coming Plague

#3429  Postby willhud9 » May 21, 2021 10:02 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
quas wrote:The govt has never been and never will be able to afford going into debt in order to give away money to everyone. Except when they can...

The walls of reality has crashed down around you, and you are about to be unplugged from The Matrix.

I'm guessing you're the sort of person who keeps their credit cards maxed out at all times, just because they can.


The government's national debt is nothing at all like a credit card.

While the idea of the government paying everyone sitting at home a living wage does sound farfetched, the concept is not as ludicrous as it seems.

Giving people money directly to spend will ultimately always boost the economy. The caveat is the people need to spend the money. Whether it be in services, eating out, etc.

And inflation is at record lows. If inflation were to suddenly skyrocket I'd be concerned, but right now, the idea that our government cannot afford anything because "tHe NaTiOnAl DeBt" is a conservative talking point which is worn and beaten and used so Republican's in congress can go, "Yea I opposed this legislation because it was too expensive."
Fear is a choice you embrace
Your only truth
Tribal poetry
Witchcraft filling your void
Lust for fantasy
Male necrocracy
Every child worthy of a better tale
User avatar
willhud9
 
Name: William
Posts: 19379
Age: 32
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: The New And Coming Plague

#3430  Postby felltoearth » May 21, 2021 10:37 pm

The overhead for the current welfare system is so large they may as well just give people money, no questions asked.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
"Walla Walla Bonga!" — Witticism
User avatar
felltoearth
 
Posts: 14762
Age: 56

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: The New And Coming Plague

#3431  Postby willhud9 » May 23, 2021 12:33 am

felltoearth wrote:The overhead for the current welfare system is so large they may as well just give people money, no questions asked.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I guess if what you took away from that is just give people money no questions asked. Not what I said :dunno:

Regardless many economists are actually worried we are not spending enough money into new welfare programs. The more people struggle to pay for commercial goods due to higher rent costs + wage stagnation = less money actually cycling into the economy.

The USA is not facing a debt crisis anytime in the near immediate future. It's not as if the US debtors are all of a sudden going to "collect" the debt. That's not how the national debt works. Inflation is REALLY low. Last year it dipped dangerously low. You don't want prices to fall. That'd be a sign of a recession as well. You want the price of goods to steadily ebb and flow. You also want the money to stay in circulation and there to be plenty of it. If people hoard the money in circulation ie put in savings, or bonds, or things that do not contribute to the exchange of commercial goods then it actually can lead to economic issues as well.



The US has the ability to spend money on its programs. For fuck's sake the US shit out 2 trillion last year to stimulate the stock market for a day. So this idea that it can't spend money on its citizens and create more social safety nets and welfare because of the debt or inflation is bollocks.

We could literally just spend money on a UHC system. But our government chooses not too because outdated fears of fiscal irresponsibility. Never mind the fact that a healthier and more productive workforce would boost the economy. Never mind the fact that if impoverished or middle class citizens didn't have to pay for health insurance they could spend that money elsewhere in the economy.

But you know, this equates to just giving people something for nothing I guess. :what:
Fear is a choice you embrace
Your only truth
Tribal poetry
Witchcraft filling your void
Lust for fantasy
Male necrocracy
Every child worthy of a better tale
User avatar
willhud9
 
Name: William
Posts: 19379
Age: 32
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: The New And Coming Plague

#3432  Postby arugula2 » May 31, 2021 1:43 am

Would've posted this somewhere back in the summer... and since Trump derangement seems to have abated juuuust enough for people to start thinking rationally about these things:

Here Are Six Accidents UNC Researchers Had With Lab-Created Coronaviruses (ProPublica, 17 August 2020)

Text below.
[Reveal] Spoiler:
    Here Are Six Accidents UNC Researchers Had With Lab-Created Coronaviruses

    There have been mouse bites and spills and other mishaps during experiments involving genetically altered coronaviruses at a high-security lab at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

    by Alison Young and Jessica Blake for ProPublica Aug. 17, 2020, 1:55 p.m. EDT

From Jan. 1, 2015, through June 1, 2020, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill reported 28 lab incidents involving genetically engineered organisms to safety officials at the National Institutes of Health, according to documents UNC released to ProPublica under a public records request. The NIH oversees research involving genetically modified organisms.

Six of the incidents involved various types of lab-created coronaviruses. Many were engineered to allow the study of the virus in mice. UNC declined to answer questions about the incidents and to disclose key details about them to the public, including the names of viruses involved, the nature of the modifications made to them and what risks were posed to the public, contrary to NIH guidelines.

UNC said in a statement that it “notified the proper oversight agencies about the incidents and took corrective action as needed.”

August 2015: Two researchers required medical monitoring after a mouse briefly escaped inside one of UNC’s biosafety level 3 labs. The mouse, which had been infected with an undisclosed type of “mouse adapted” virus, squirmed free of a researcher’s gloved hand and onto the lab floor. It was caught inside the lab and returned to its cage. UNC officials refused to disclose the name of the virus, but NIH officials told ProPublica it was a type of “SARS-associated Coronavirus.” Incident reports say the mouse was no longer believed to be infectious and the researchers were wearing protective gear including powered respirators. Still, the incident was deemed a potential exposure and the workers were required to report their temperatures and any symptoms twice daily for 10 days. Neither was sickened.

October 2015: Three UNC researchers were potentially exposed to an undisclosed “mouse adapted” virus when a shallow container fell to the floor of a biosafety level 3 lab, spilled and potentially created aerosolized droplets. NIH officials told ProPublica the incident involved a type of SARS-associated coronavirus. Even though the three researchers in the lab at the time were wearing safety gear and powered air-purifying respirators, university safety officials deemed it a “potential exposure.” The workers were placed on medical surveillance for 10 days. None were sickened.

November 2015: Two UNC lab workers were potentially exposed to a lab-created type of MERS coronavirus when an empty cage with contaminated animal bedding spilled on the floor of a biosafety level 3 lab. A researcher was in the process of transferring MERS-infected mice to a clean cage when the dirty cage was knocked over. The two workers in the UNC lab at the time of the incident left and allowed the aerosolized particles from the incident to settle to the ground before returning to decontaminate the area. Even though the two workers were wearing head-to-toe protective gear and powered respirators, the incident was deemed a potential exposure. They were placed on medical surveillance for 10 days and required to report temperatures and any symptoms twice daily. Neither was sickened.

February 2016: A mouse infected with an undisclosed “mouse adapted” virus bit a researcher’s finger through two layers of gloves as she tried to weigh it in a biosafety level 3 lab. NIH officials told ProPublica that the incident involved a type of SARS-associated coronavirus. Following lab procedures, the researcher disinfected her gloves and allowed the wound to bleed for a minute before washing her hands with soap and water for five minutes. She was evaluated at UNC’s employee occupational health clinic where the medical director discussed options for isolating the researcher. Instead, “the researcher was required to wear a surgical mask while in public and at work” and to report her temperature and any symptoms twice daily. The reports note the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention was also alerted because the virus involved in the incident is on a list of dangerous pathogens that are federally regulated. The report says “updates were provided to the CDC throughout the medical monitoring period.” The researcher was not sickened.

April 2017: A plate containing virus from lung samples from a mouse infected with an undisclosed type of virus was dropped by a researcher in a biosafety level 3 lab, spilling a small amount of virus material onto an incubator door and the floor. While UNC wouldn’t disclose the virus’s name, NIH told ProPublica that it was a type of SARS-associated coronavirus. In this incident, the university’s employee occupational health clinic said it would not be necessary for the three researchers who were in the lab to report their temperatures to the clinic because the spill was small and the researchers’ safety gear was intact. The workers were advised to do their usual daily self-monitoring for any respiratory symptoms or temperature. No further information about the workers’ health was included in the incident reports.

April 2020: A UNC scientist underwent 14 days of self-quarantine at home after a mouse bite caused potential exposure to a strain of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, that had been adapted for growth in mice. The incident in a biosafety level 3 lab happened when a researcher attempted to read the ID number on a tag on a mouse’s ear. The mouse flipped over in the researcher’s hand and bit an index finger through two layers of gloves. It did not appear to break the researcher’s skin, but UNC told NIH in its reports that “given the uncertainty surrounding the exposure, we are treating this as a medium/high risk exposure.” The researcher was instructed to self-quarantine and do twice-daily temperature checks. UNC also notified the local Health Department. No further information about the worker’s health was included in the incident reports.
arugula

Podrán cortar todas las flores, pero no podrán detener la primavera.
    - Neruda
User avatar
arugula2
Banned Troll
 
Posts: 2431

Antarctica (aq)
Print view this post

Re: The New And Coming Plague

#3433  Postby arugula2 » May 31, 2021 10:40 am

willhud9 wrote:...
We could literally just spend money on a UHC system. But our government chooses not too because outdated fears of fiscal irresponsibility. Never mind the fact that a healthier and more productive workforce would boost the economy. Never mind the fact that if impoverished or middle class citizens didn't have to pay for health insurance they could spend that money elsewhere in the economy.

But you know, this equates to just giving people something for nothing I guess. :what:

(Highlighted bit...) I doubt it. Yes, it's their talking point, but other than as a meme for rubes like us to repeat, I've never heard anyone finish that thought. It's taken for granted, because consumers are happy not thinking past their noses.

Healthcare - since you rightly singled it out for analogy - is a fair test case. Most expensive by far, worst outcomes by far. In the industrialized world, USA takes the cake. Most expensive to individuals and to the national economy. When media devote time to it, they rarely get to causes, except occasional jabs at pharma & insurance companies. Nobody really talks about who dictates prices: an obscure panel of "experts" from the American Medical Association, whose members are the same overpaid specialists and hospital administrators that reap the benefits. In any other scenario, that's called a cartel. Yet it's baked into the system, so the system doesn't have the appropriate language for describing it, and it avoids doing so.

Congress is the intermediary, and as with most things, Congress prioritizes its donors. Buying Congressional favor is very cheap - in fact, if the medical industry didn't shell out the necessary bribes, we'd think them stupid, and irresponsible to their clients. It wouldn't take much for the system to shift in the other direction, but that requires informed citizens. Almost all industries, and politicians themselves, rely on minimally informed, uncurious consumers. So when most people are still repeating pablum about lack of available money for basic services, it means we're losing.

Also, it's absurd for any complaint about the national "checkbook" to not bring up military expenditures every single time, even in principle - even when the premise sucks. And it does suck because, as you say, nothing's going to replace the dollar, and no economy will supplant the US in several lifetimes. Also, it's weird that the insane disconnect between American productivity & wages since the 70's gets left out of the "checkbook" chatter. Minimum wage should approach $21-$32/hour by that metric, accounting for inflation. It's also notable that even in countries represented on this forum in which college or health coverage is either not free or, if free, not comprehensive... the US system would still be a step down. Unless you're comfortably well-off.

I think that's the common thread.
arugula

Podrán cortar todas las flores, pero no podrán detener la primavera.
    - Neruda
User avatar
arugula2
Banned Troll
 
Posts: 2431

Antarctica (aq)
Print view this post

Re: The New And Coming Plague

#3434  Postby Seabass » Jun 01, 2021 8:45 pm

:rofl:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/covid-anti-vax-hospitalised-america-b1857838.html
https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-covid-anti-vax-pastor-rick-wiles-infected-20210601-owrcu2t4xnfffi6f3sgrghkixy-story.html
https://www.newsweek.com/pastor-rick-wiles-apparently-has-covid-after-refusing-vaccines-he-called-global-genocide-1596221


Anti-vaxxer hospitalised with Covid after saying vaccines would wipe out ‘stupid people’

Rick Wiles, a right-wing Christian talk show host and anti-vaxxer has been hospitalised with Covid-19 after saying vaccines would wipe out “stupid people”.

Less than a month ago, Mr Wiles said he would never get vaccinated. His website, TruNews, announced over the weekend that had been infected and taken to hospital where he had been given oxygen. The announcement was reported by Right Wing Watch.

TruNews has pushed conspiracy theorists considered to be racist, antisemitic, homophobic, and Islamophobic. The outlet has called President Obama a “demon from hell” multiple times. Mr Wiles has said that Mr Obama “spiritually sodomised the nation”.

The right-wing broadcaster told his audience last month that he wasn’t getting vaccinated because he believed the vaccines were being used to commit a “genocide,” to kill hundreds of millions of people.

“I am not going to be vaccinated,” Mr Wiles said. “I’m going to be one of the survivors. I’m going to survive the genocide ... The only good thing that will come out of this is a lot of stupid people will be killed off. If the vaccine wipes out a lot of stupid people, well, we’ll have a better world.”

TruNews has said that eternal damnation would await anyone mocking Mr Wiles’s affliction.

“Already, the naysayers and mockers have started with their taunts,” the website said. “Let them speak their foolish words and let them mock. It will only serve to be used to fuel their flames of torment in hell unless they repent.”

TruNews suddenly suspended its broadcast last week, announcing that it was “experiencing a sudden cluster of flu and COVID among some employees and their relatives”.

The outlet then said on Sunday that Mr Wiles had been hospitalised.

TruNews has announced that Lauren Witzke, a Republican Senate candidate in Delaware in 2020, will fill in and co-host his nightly TV programme for the next two weeks.

The Daily Beast reported that Ms Witzke has pushed conspiracy theories related to QAnon, antisemitism, Flat Earth, and 9/11.


"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." —Voltaire

"They want to take away your hamburgers. This is what Stalin dreamt about but never achieved." —Sebastian Gorka
User avatar
Seabass
 
Name: Gazpacho Police
Posts: 4159

Country: Covidiocracy
Print view this post

Re: The New And Coming Plague

#3435  Postby Agi Hammerthief » Jun 01, 2021 9:01 pm

immunized the hard way
* my (modified) emphasis ( or 'interpretation' )
User avatar
Agi Hammerthief
 
Posts: 3208
Age: 50
Male

Country: .de
Germany (de)
Print view this post

Re: The New And Coming Plague

#3436  Postby Seabass » Jun 09, 2021 9:44 pm

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." —Voltaire

"They want to take away your hamburgers. This is what Stalin dreamt about but never achieved." —Sebastian Gorka
User avatar
Seabass
 
Name: Gazpacho Police
Posts: 4159

Country: Covidiocracy
Print view this post

Re: The New And Coming Plague

#3437  Postby gobshite » Jun 14, 2021 1:28 pm

willhud9 wrote:That's not how the national debt works.


Genuine question: how does it work? I thought the government issued term limited bonds, with those loans needing to be paid by the term limit.
gobshite
 
Posts: 264

Print view this post

Re: The New And Coming Plague

#3438  Postby Spearthrower » Jun 24, 2021 8:38 pm

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57600757

UK deaths outnumber births for first time in 40 years


Not much to add, but just dropping it here so that the 'it's just like the flu' foolish few can ignore it.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
Spearthrower
 
Posts: 33854
Age: 48
Male

Country: Thailand
Print view this post

Re: The New And Coming Plague

#3439  Postby Alan C » Jun 28, 2021 12:21 am

Seabass wrote:There's A Stark Red-Blue Divide When It Comes To States' Vaccination Rates

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/09/1004430257/theres-a-stark-red-blue-divide-when-it-comes-to-states-vaccination-rates

Image


Sure does look like the dayglo dictator is killing his own supporters, his mango arse should be in prison for his approach to the pandemic alone. Hundreds of thousands of deaths that could have been prevented if they had someone other than that thin-skinned narcissistic shitgibbon as POTUS.
Lose it - it means go crazy, nuts, insane, bonzo, no longer in possession of one's faculties, three fries short of a happy meal, WACKO!! - Jack O'Neill
User avatar
Alan C
 
Posts: 3091
Age: 47
Male

New Zealand (nz)
Print view this post

Re: The New And Coming Plague

#3440  Postby The_Metatron » Jun 28, 2021 3:19 pm

This virus is mutating into one that selectively kills the credible. The people dying here are the unvaccinated people. This virus kills Republicans.

I see nothing to prevent this Delta variant from sweeping the left side of that photo. Oh, it'll pop up elsewhere, and we know whom to thank for it, but for now, this variant seeks the gullible, and it will find them.
User avatar
The_Metatron
Moderator
 
Name: Jesse
Posts: 22547
Age: 61
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to News, Politics & Current Affairs

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 2 guests