ronmcd wrote:

zoon wrote:

ronmcd wrote:

Is that in today's Times? I might go out and purchase a copy.

Yup (apparently)

Having bought my copy of the Times, I’m taking the opportunity to repost this excellent cartoon which is indeed in it. Quoting from another article in the same issue:

The Times wrote:European leaders are piling pressure on Britain to reconsider acting on the referendum decision amid growing fears in Brussels that the political crisis is tearing the United Kingdom apart.

Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, will use an EU summit tomorrow to urge David Cameron to step back from the brink.

Peter Altmaier, the German chancellor’s chief of staff, warned that a Brexit was “a difficult warershed with many consequences” and that Britain should be given time to trigger the EU’s Article 50 withdrawal clause to allow a rethink.

“Politicians in London should have the opportunity to reconsider the consequences of an exit,” he told the RedaktionsNetzwerk Deutschland news agency.”

This is getting more hopeful by the minute, David Cameron won’t need any persuading.

Looking at the rest of the article, there’s a breakdown on where 13 of the various EU governments stand on the question of whether to punish the UK if we go. France, Italy, Spain and Austria tend to be for hardball and punishment, but that seems to be at least partly because they have their own similar rebellions going on. Belgium is all for greater integration, and is also hardline. All the others, including Germany, favour, or lean towards amicable separation.

In France, opinion polls suggest 55% want a referendum on the EU, and 41% would vote to leave, in Italy the figures are 58% and 48%, in Spain 40% and 26%, in Belgium 42% and 29%, in the Netherlands 54% and 34%, and in Germany 40% and 34%. I’m not surprised their governments are jittery.

Thommo wrote:Big changes that are not tested by referendum are usually introduced through GE manifestos.

The mandate on those issues stems from the fundamental character of a representative democracy and passing a bill in the houses of parliament, accepting that whatever has been negotiated represents the best the negotiating team under the auspices of a prime minister and cabinet can achieve.[/quote]

And yet we have just had a referendum...

Thommo wrote:

ronmcd wrote:

Thommo wrote:

ronmcd wrote:Can't believe I've so far missed the opportunity to post my most used gif. Sums up the current situation completely.

Wouldn't it be great if Alan Partridge became the new leader of the Tories. Him or Al Murray.

Partridge would clearly be PM, Al Murray foreign secretary. I'm trying to think of a fictional character of special idiocy to be chancellor, but my mind's a blank at the moment

Alan B'Stard? Cookie Monster?

Although, perhaps not Alan B'Stard for Chancellor, but surely Sir Piers Fletcher-Dervish.

Animavore wrote:Jesus, this Brexit thing has kicked off xenophobic resentment in Ireland now. Three lads at lunch time were talking about sending foreigners home, Irish jobs for Irish people and all that, talking about a takeover if the Turks join and leaving the EU.

I argued as best I could, then one of the other lads walked in, a Hungarian, and the subject changed and they were talking and laughng with him.

Cowards and hypocrites.

This is the underbelly of what Brexit has started. Growing nationalism and racism across Europe.

Thanks guys.

I quite enjoyed this article about contradictory attitudes about (the idea of) immigration against feelings towards immigrants themselves.

https://notesfrompoland.com/2015/03/22/ ... migration/

scott1328 wrote:

Animavore wrote:Jesus, this Brexit thing has kicked off xenophobic resentment in Ireland now. Three lads at lunch time were talking about sending foreigners home, Irish jobs for Irish people and all that, talking about a takeover if the Turks join and leaving the EU.

I argued as best I could, then one of the other lads walked in, a Hungarian, and the subject changed and they were talking and laughng with him.

Cowards and hypocrites.

This is the underbelly of what Brexit has started. Growing nationalism and racism across Europe.

Thanks guys.

Growing nationalism and racism across Europe? What's the worst that could happen?

You are not serious in asking that question, are you?

How does the answer "70 years of relative peace after 2000 years of constant war somewhere (or all over) on the continent" suit you?

GrahamH wrote:And yet we have just had a referendum...

Which was an exceptionally rare event, proximately caused by Cameron backing himself into a corner over the Tory EU split before the 2015 general election and sticking the referendum pledge into the manifesto as a band aid.

In terms of actually implementing that referendum parliament has the sovereignty to do so without another referendum. One referendum is not the promise of a new referendum on every detail.

Thommo wrote:

ronmcd wrote:

Thommo wrote:

ronmcd wrote:
Partridge would clearly be PM, Al Murray foreign secretary. I'm trying to think of a fictional character of special idiocy to be chancellor, but my mind's a blank at the moment

Alan B'Stard? Cookie Monster?

Noo! Cookie Monster is adorable.

But he'd look adorable with that little red box. Can't you just imagine the cast of Sesame Street tossing government papers left and right, singing a little song and trying to teach the country to count to 20?

The more I think about this, the more I like it.

Okay. Sold. Stand down Nicola, this will be too funny

Globe wrote:

Growing nationalism and racism across Europe? What's the worst that could happen?

You are not serious in asking that question, are you?

No, he's not.

Thommo wrote:

Globe wrote:

Growing nationalism and racism across Europe? What's the worst that could happen?

You are not serious in asking that question, are you?

No, he's not.

I did't think so.

However I seriously think that europeans (and Brits) have proven beyond any doubt that they are incapable of ruling themselves without some "supervisory entity" looking over their shoulders... 24/7/365.

I think that's exactly the kind of patriarchal attitude that has got the EU institutions into the mess they're in.

Might be, but it's still true. We'v got a few 1000 years of history proving it.

Animavore wrote:Jesus, this Brexit thing has kicked off xenophobic resentment in Ireland now. Three lads at lunch time were talking about sending foreigners home, Irish jobs for Irish people and all that, talking about a takeover if the Turks join and leaving the EU.

I argued as best I could, then one of the other lads walked in, a Hungarian, and the subject changed and they were talking and laughng with him.

Cowards and hypocrites.

This is the underbelly of what Brexit has started. Growing nationalism and racism across Europe.

Thanks guys.

QFT.

Globe wrote:

Thommo wrote:

Globe wrote:

Growing nationalism and racism across Europe? What's the worst that could happen?

You are not serious in asking that question, are you?

No, he's not.

I did't think so.

However I seriously think that europeans (and Brits) have proven beyond any doubt that they are incapable of ruling themselves without some "supervisory entity" looking over their shoulders... 24/7/365.

Are you referring to Jean-Claude Juncker, or God?

I think we evolved arguing non-stop about how to organise our societies; supernatural supervisory entities don't exist, we have to make do without.

Matt_B wrote:We've already had a referendum that was designed to fail on a Leave proposal that was basically a blind punt, let alone something so advantageous as the Norway option. I'd much rather not put it to another if at all possible.

Choice between the Norway option and staying in the EU: "Leave" have to defend continued free movement of people and fax democracy. That, I think, truly is unwinnable. And worse comes to worse, it's the Norway option, which is at least viable.

GrahamH wrote:If your view is representative then you will compel the worst possible outcome. Why the fuck would you want to do that?

Dan Hannan was rowing back on immigration on Friday. Good. Do you want push for "10's of thousands" because voters thought it was promised? Fuck no.

I don't want to compel the worst option: I want to avoid it. There's zero guarantee that the Norway option will even be on the table, especially if the hardball lobby among the Eurocrats stay in the ascendant: or, if it is, the EU may well insist on Brexit first.

Turning the mob Johnson's whipped up back on him is the best way to scupper Brexit before it sets sail.

Globe wrote::dunno: Might be, but it's still true. We'v got a few 1000 years of history proving it.

I don't agree. At best we have a Cum Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc situation. At worst we can point out that national governments like those of Japan or Canada have avoided wars at least as well as European nations since the end of WWII without such oversight, and thus not even that.

zoon wrote:

Globe wrote:

Thommo wrote:

Globe wrote:
You are not serious in asking that question, are you?

No, he's not.

I did't think so.

However I seriously think that europeans (and Brits) have proven beyond any doubt that they are incapable of ruling themselves without some "supervisory entity" looking over their shoulders... 24/7/365.

Are you referring to Jean-Claude Juncker, or God?

I think we evolved arguing non-stop about how to organise our societies; supernatural supervisory entities don't exist, we have to make do without.

"Supernatural" never even crossed my mind.
If not the EU, then some other supervisory organisation (which btw also are called entities).
The European mentality is simply not constructed to be left to own, nationalstic tendencies without carrying out major screw-ups and atrocities.

mrjonno wrote:Very unpleasant but that plainly isnt a serious death threat

Really? Did you use your psychic powers to discover this?

All death threats are serious.

At the very least it's an incredibly dangerous thing to say in the aftermath of Jo Cox's murder.. Violence is already on the rise. We're in a fight now to to make the referendum stick, or not, and the far right will be happy to take this to the streets.

We can guess but we cannot really know what lies behind a threat or how likely it is that the person who made the threat might act upon it. We cannot tell just how far the other guy is willing to go. It has a chilling effect - and not just to the target but also to their family who will wonder if they might be targetted too. Would you like to be constantly looking over your shoulder worrying about an attack, or afraid if your daughter is twenty minutes late coming home?

It is definitely serious.

Thommo wrote:

Globe wrote::dunno: Might be, but it's still true. We'v got a few 1000 years of history proving it.

I don't agree. At best we have a Cum Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc situation. At worst we can point out that national governments like those of Japan or Canada have avoided wars at least as well as European nations since the end of WWII without such oversight, and thus not even that.

Only because it has been financially better not to.

Thommo wrote:I think that's exactly the kind of patriarchal attitude that has got the EU institutions into the mess they're in.

Yes, I think the Czech foreign minister was probably making a strong point as quoted in an article in the Telegraph here, headlined: "Brexit was Juncker's fault and he must go, says Czech foreign minister."

The Telegraph wrote:Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the European Commission, should resign as a result of the Brexit vote, the Czech foreign minister said on Sunday, as splits emerged over the future direction of Europe among the EU's remaining 27 members.

The EU chief, who has repeatedly called for “more Europe” to fix the continent's mounting crises, was a “negative symbol” of the kind of federalism that British voters rejected, said Lubomír Zaorálek, the Czech foreign minister.

"In my opinion, he [Juncker] is not the right person for that position. We have to ask who is responsible for the result of the referendum in Britain," said Mr Zaorálek on Czech television.

Smaller EU states fear that Britain’s departure could leave them at the mercy of new plans to deepen integration.