Byron wrote:As for the justification for free movement, it's both economic (to allow labor to follow capital, beneficial to both businesses, and workers), and social: the Treaty of Rome's first and most important task was to make another European war both unthinkable and materially impossible. Part of that was breaking down borders and fostering contacts between European peoples.

Valid point, but I think what we're seeing is that closer contact can cause more friction in some cases, rather than less: "good fences make good neighbors" may be applicable here.

Free movement within the EU may not be objected to on the continent, but there's certainly resentment against Turkish immigrants in Germany.

Globe wrote:

mrjonno wrote:Equivalent in other areas as mentioned, takes years to become a decent software developer . So no rethinking that nearly half the population is not economically viable and its questionable if such people should even be allowed a vote. Being part of society is a privilege not a right

Garbage removal, keeping the streets clean, serving your pint when you go to the pub, cooking your food when you go out, keeping you office building clean, deliver your groceries to the supermarket, accepting your payment at the supermarket, keeping your parks clean, working in the factory producing your beer/pies/younameit, packing your consumables....

Nice to know that there is another person not needing all those pesky lower educated/not educated people... Get to work. Take your own trash to the landfill and sort it for starters.

Done most of those jobs, they are additional 2nd wage, temporary, student starter jobs , in between jobs . No one in their right mind would expect to have a decent life on them long term. Does anyone seriously think you will able raise a family or even pay the rent on a single room with any of those jobs?

Warren Dew wrote:

Byron wrote:As for the justification for free movement, it's both economic (to allow labor to follow capital, beneficial to both businesses, and workers), and social: the Treaty of Rome's first and most important task was to make another European war both unthinkable and materially impossible. Part of that was breaking down borders and fostering contacts between European peoples.

Valid point, but I think what we're seeing is that closer contact can cause more friction in some cases, rather than less: "good fences make good neighbors" may be applicable here.

Free movement within the EU may not be objected to on the continent, but there's certainly resentment against Turkish immigrants in Germany.

Turkish gastarbeiter in Germany predate the EU and not part of the free movement of labour. They were specifically invited

Garbage removal, yeah, we'll still need that, and it's not a bad living around here. But, where there used to be 3 or 4 guys on a truck there are now 2, a driver and a guy that hooks up the hydraulic lift thingy to pick up the standardized garbage bins. They're working on a truck that only needs a driver, you put your bin in the proper place and the robot arm picks it up. There's 3 dudes out of a job.

Prison work gangs are back. Almost every day I see either country or state work gangs clearing rubbish and litter from the streets, trimming grass and bushes, filling potholes and the like. That's a BUNCH of employees out of work. Why bother with wages and insurance and all that if you can contract out a bunch of convicts for pennies an hour? Keeps the prison industry rolling along.

Robots to the right of use, robots to the left of us, robots in front of us clicked and whirred. Forward, the unemployed brigade, charge for the food stamps! Ours is not to reason why, ours is not to make reply, ours is just to mindlessly consume mass quantities and not riot.

We are still a little way of robots replacing too much, but we have far too many people for most low skill jobs whether you have immigration or not. Society/capitalism simply doesn't need that many people

mrjonno wrote:We are still a little way of robots replacing too much, but we have far too many people for most low skill jobs whether you have immigration or not. Society/capitalism simply doesn't need that many people

I think the economy could absorb quite a bit more in terms of low skilled services at the right price. For example, if I could pay for services out of pretax income, I would hire gardening, maid service, and snow removal services, as well as a lot more child care services, rather than doing it myself. The problem is that I can't afford to pay $15-$20/hour when it costs me $30-$40 per hour out of my pretax paycheck.

You can always find something for people to do , but the value of the work is not going to be enough to pay for someone to live without welfare. Taxes aren't the problem as the majority of the British population (and I assume in the US) don't actually pay any net tax (ie they get more out of society than they pay in).

mrjonno wrote:You can always find something for people to do , but the value of the work is not going to be enough to pay for someone to live without welfare. Taxes aren't the problem as the majority of the British population (and I assume in the US) don't actually pay any net tax (ie they get more out of society than they pay in).

Indeed, restructuring welfare to permit working for supplemental income, rather than only for primary income, would help a lot.

Byron wrote:Free movement is a significant issue only in England and Wales, where it's scapegoated for the economic damage caused by neoliberalism. EU citizens aren't likely to accept their governments surrendering their rights to live and work in fellow member states, let alone demand it, anymore than U.S. citizens would give up their rights to move between states of the union.

Speaking of which, how about removing the freedom of movement between England and Wales for a trial run and see how that goes down?

laklak wrote:Garbage removal, yeah, we'll still need that, and it's not a bad living around here. But, where there used to be 3 or 4 guys on a truck there are now 2, a driver and a guy that hooks up the hydraulic lift thingy to pick up the standardized garbage bins. They're working on a truck that only needs a driver, you put your bin in the proper place and the robot arm picks it up. There's 3 dudes out of a job.

Prison work gangs are back. Almost every day I see either country or state work gangs clearing rubbish and litter from the streets, trimming grass and bushes, filling potholes and the like. That's a BUNCH of employees out of work. Why bother with wages and insurance and all that if you can contract out a bunch of convicts for pennies an hour? Keeps the prison industry rolling along.

Robots to the right of use, robots to the left of us, robots in front of us clicked and whirred. Forward, the unemployed brigade, charge for the food stamps! Ours is not to reason why, ours is not to make reply, ours is just to mindlessly consume mass quantities and not riot.

We have underground waste containers with fancy openings on top. One truck and one driver empties one a fortnight. All very hygienic.

laklak wrote:Garbage removal, yeah, we'll still need that, and it's not a bad living around here. But, where there used to be 3 or 4 guys on a truck there are now 2, a driver and a guy that hooks up the hydraulic lift thingy to pick up the standardized garbage bins. They're working on a truck that only needs a driver, you put your bin in the proper place and the robot arm picks it up. There's 3 dudes out of a job.

Prison work gangs are back. Almost every day I see either country or state work gangs clearing rubbish and litter from the streets, trimming grass and bushes, filling potholes and the like. That's a BUNCH of employees out of work. Why bother with wages and insurance and all that if you can contract out a bunch of convicts for pennies an hour? Keeps the prison industry rolling along.

Robots to the right of use, robots to the left of us, robots in front of us clicked and whirred. Forward, the unemployed brigade, charge for the food stamps! Ours is not to reason why, ours is not to make reply, ours is just to mindlessly consume mass quantities and not riot.

The US prison system aside, 3 dudes out of job means saving labour costs of 3 dudes for the business owner providing garbage removal service, thus increasing profit for such business owner. This profit can be taxed and gain from such taxation redistributed.

Someone making $30-40 per hour wants to hire someone else for gardening, maid service, and snow removal services, or care services but cannot afford to pay $15-20 per hour. Since the state has more income from taxes, the state can subsidise such services so they are still affordable for those who want to use them yet pay enough to those who provide them.

Even marginal savings, (saving labour cost - higher taxation), is motivational for business owner. Those who want to hire services have access to affordable services via subsidised services, those providing subsidised services have satisfactory compensation, the state gets to pay less welfare and everyone is happy.

Rubbish removal is not a private business here (TG!). The town council run it and very efficiently to. Leaving these sort of services to the private sector is an open invitation for exploitation and cutting corners.

This works for any business "employing" robots. The principle is the same: robots do work for which they do not require compensation - beyond energy, maintenance and initial investment - and such work creates profit.

Think taxi driver. Taxi driver gets loan to purchase autonomous taxi. Even if paying off such loan would not be as profitable as driving taxi her/himself, s/he can do other kind of work while getting some profit from autonomous taxi and such work is essentially subsidised by work done by robot.

The only problem with robots is wealth redistribution. The work is still here to be done, profits are still to be made, the only question is who reaps the benefits?

Matt_B wrote:

Byron wrote:Free movement is a significant issue only in England and Wales, where it's scapegoated for the economic damage caused by neoliberalism. EU citizens aren't likely to accept their governments surrendering their rights to live and work in fellow member states, let alone demand it, anymore than U.S. citizens would give up their rights to move between states of the union.

Speaking of which, how about removing the freedom of movement between England and Wales for a trial run and see how that goes down?

There is freedom of movement but far too few people take advantage of it, you have people crossing continents to find work while Brit's won't move 50 miles and spend their entire lives in dead end towns. Only in the UK do people think they have a right to a local job, that's the welfare generation for you. You don't find that in Europe or the US

How about those Brits living in France and working in Britain. The Euro Star is quicker than many a Southern rail train at getting into London and more trustworthy.

mrjonno wrote:

Globe wrote:

mrjonno wrote:Equivalent in other areas as mentioned, takes years to become a decent software developer . So no rethinking that nearly half the population is not economically viable and its questionable if such people should even be allowed a vote. Being part of society is a privilege not a right

Garbage removal, keeping the streets clean, serving your pint when you go to the pub, cooking your food when you go out, keeping you office building clean, deliver your groceries to the supermarket, accepting your payment at the supermarket, keeping your parks clean, working in the factory producing your beer/pies/younameit, packing your consumables....

Nice to know that there is another person not needing all those pesky lower educated/not educated people... Get to work. Take your own trash to the landfill and sort it for starters.

Done most of those jobs, they are additional 2nd wage, temporary, student starter jobs , in between jobs . No one in their right mind would expect to have a decent life on them long term. Does anyone seriously think you will able raise a family or even pay the rent on a single room with any of those jobs?

Many people actually DO make a living that way. All their lives.
And jobs like that should not be sneered at. We need people to do them, and like any other necessary job those jobs are worthy of respect.
Even the woman cleaning the toilet at your workplace should be treated with respect. Even is she needs support from the townhall to feed her children.
It's not HER fault that her wages for doing a necessary job is not high enough to pay her own way in the world. It's people who think that she should not be paid according her work load who is at fault. Being too cheap to recognise that if she didn't do it, they would have to clean up their own mess.
At least she TRIES and she holds a job, raise a family even though it's fucking impossible.

I'm holding a pretty good job, determine my own hours, work when I want to, take vacations when I feel like it, can take 4 days off for the weekend without anyone yelling at me... but I never ever forget that it's the garbage collector, the cleaning lady, the factory worker, aso that make MY way of life possible.
It doesn't matter WHAT people do or what level of education they have or have not, anyone working a job should be treated and talked about with a minimum of respectfulness. And people who can't get jobs... most of them actually want to work, but are unable to find employment.

So get off the high horse and start seeing people as people... not leaches trying to con you out of your money.
Because at the end of the day that is what a society is all about. Making room for everybody. Not just the higher educated.
Society is taking care of everyone... not just the ones in your own income bracket.

This may come off as pretty high and mighty, but I am fed up by people NOT living up to their duty to society even though they have plenty of money to do so. Egotism at it's worst.

We live in a capitalist society, if you have low skills you will have a shit life. No one is going to change that . I don't sneer at people who have low skills as long as they don't interfere in my life (like voting for Brexit which makes them my enemy) but they are charity cases. Stop expecting the world to change to suit your ideology, you and everyone else needs to change to adapt to it

Society is taking care of everyone... not just the ones in your own income bracket.

Naive rubbish

mrjonno wrote:We live in a capitalist society, if you have low skills you will have a shit life. No one is going to change that . I don't sneer at people who have low skills as long as they don't interfere in my life (like voting for Brexit which makes them my enemy) but they are charity cases. Stop expecting the world to change to suit your ideology, you and everyone else needs to change to adapt to it

Society is taking care of everyone... not just the ones in your own income bracket.

Naive rubbish

They are not "charity cases". They are people unable to find employment. Thinking anything else is naive.
Sure... there is the odd one unwilling to take any kind of job even though there is absolutely nothing wrong with that person. But that shouldn't reflect badly on everyone else.
It's like blaming every muslim in the world for the extremist terror.

Last year there was a huge outcry in Denmark. Why were the strawberries only picked by eastern Europeans?
Why didn't Danes apply for those jobs?

After a bit of digging by a couple of Union workers it turned out that the jobs weren't even publicised (as the law says they should be) or offered to Danes, and the two union workers tried to become employed by one of the big strawberry farmers, and were turned away with the message that "We don't employ Danes because you will demand higher (union agreed) wages and toilet facilities, washrooms, lunch breaks aso. Get out".

THAT is capitalism. Employing low wage workers because you are unwilling to supply lawful conditions for your workers.
Not the fault of the workers. ONLY the fault of the employers.

It has become easier with free movement, but even then it is still illegal.
So blaming unemployed people for the lacking moral mettle of the employers is at best naive.

I'm not really blaming long term unemployed people because they aren't really that many of them, I'm blaming low skilled people in low paid jobs who were brought up in a 1st world country with 1st world educational opportunities who did not take advantage of it. Where it really was the state fault that these people didn't get an education then that should be rectified but in most cases its just waste of space people having waste of space kids with no real expectations in life.

Polish people cross continents to improve themselves when our local excuses for human beings won't even move 50 miles to improve themselves

Every Eastern European that moves to the UK dilutes the sickness that is the British working classes, the more the better