UK EU Referendum

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Re: UK EU Referendum

#3421  Postby Byron » Jul 30, 2016 1:11 pm

zoon wrote:Yes, it may not happen, but I don't think Remain needs to lie down yet, any more than the SNP or UKIP regarded referendum results as final. Anatole Kaletsky is a respected commentator making the case 3 days ago here (my addition in double brackets):
Anatole Kaletsky wrote:Brexit has turned “Leave” (whether the EU or the euro) into a realistic option in every European country. Once Britain gives the Union formal notice (by invoking Article 50 of the Treaty of Lisbon), that option will enter the mainstream of political debate everywhere. Research by the European Council on Foreign Relations has found 34 anti-EU referendum demands in 18 other countries. Even if each of these challenges has only a 5% chance of success, the probability of at least one succeeding is 83%.

Can the genie of disintegration be put back in its bottle? The EU’s breakup may well prove unstoppable once Britain leaves; but Britain has not yet invoked Article 50. The bottle could still be sealed before the genie escapes.

Unfortunately, Europe is using the wrong threats and incentives to achieve this. France is demanding that Britain accelerate its exit. Germany is playing the “good cop” by offering access to the single market, but only in exchange for immigration rules that Britain will not accept. These are exactly the wrong sticks and carrots.

Instead of rushing Brexit, Europe’s leaders should be trying to avert it, by persuading British voters to change their minds. The aim should not be to negotiate the terms of departure, but to negotiate the terms on which most British voters would want to remain.
..........
((Kaletsky suggests that the EU could persuade Britain to remain by allowing more border controls across the EU. Since this is the issue behind many of the other breakaway movements, such a move would also strengthen the EU as a whole, in Kaletsky's view.))
...........
The real obstacle to a strategy of persuading Britain to remain in the EU is the EU bureaucracy. The European Commission, once the EU’s source of visionary creativity, has become a fanatical defender of existing rules and regulations, however irrational and destructive, on the grounds that any concessions will beget more demands. Concessions to British voters on immigration would inspire the southern countries to demand fiscal and banking reforms, eastern countries would seek budget changes, and non-euro countries would demand an end to their second-class status.

The Commission is right to believe that demands for EU reform would extend well beyond Britain. But is this a reason to resist all change? That type of rigidity broke up the Soviet Union and nearly destroyed the Catholic Church. It will destroy the EU if the bureaucracy remains incapable of reform.

It is time for Europe’s politicians to overrule the bureaucrats and re-create a flexible, democratic EU capable of responding to its citizens and adapting to a changing world. Most British voters would be happy to remain in that kind of Europe.

There was plenty scope to push for EU-wide reform, but only with allies.

Westminster's in this mess 'cause it went it alone, expecting far-reaching reform to be rushed through in weeks, at Britain's say-so. If, say, GB had joined with the Nordic countries, Greece, some in the A10, and perhaps the Netherlands, it may've worked towards a two-track Europe, with tighter integration for the Germany-France core, and a looser arrangement for others.

Instead, in a foretaste of his referendum decision, to win over Eurosceptic Tories in his leadership fight against David Davis, Cameron withdrew from the mainstream center-right bloc in the European Parliament, and marginalized Britain's party of government in a hard-right rump.

Played right, there could've been a referendum on the new deal for Europe. It would've closed the democratic deficit, while giving the government something positive to campaign for, a criticism that Salmond and Sturgeon have made repeatedly, and one that hits home. Launching a referendum to maintain the status quo, instead of to enact change, is an uphill struggle.
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Re: UK EU Referendum

#3422  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jul 31, 2016 10:28 am

In the two speed Europe envisaged a few years ago Britain would be in the slow speed lane. The original seven would move into the fast lane. This is still a probable outcome made only easier if Britain does drop out.
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Re: UK EU Referendum

#3423  Postby angelo » Jul 31, 2016 11:17 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:In the two speed Europe envisaged a few years ago Britain would be in the slow speed lane. The original seven would move into the fast lane. This is still a probable outcome made only easier if Britain DOES drop out.

The people have spoken they want out. Why should they be denied their wishes?
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Re: UK EU Referendum

#3424  Postby Byron » Jul 31, 2016 12:27 pm

"The people" don't want out: a narrow majority do; over 16 million want in.

Still, we generally defer to majority votes, so the majority do have the right to decide. In England and Wales, it's to go. The wish of majorities in Scotland and Northern Ireland to remain should also be respected.

And the majority of the people have the right to reconsider. This is what Remain should focus on. Not undermining the result via legal or political fixes, but persuading the people to change their mind.
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Re: UK EU Referendum

#3425  Postby mrjonno » Jul 31, 2016 1:37 pm

Best way of changing people's mind is pain, changes in economic circumstances. The mob are hardly going to respond to anything else. That's not really in the hands of those who want to remain or leavers for that matter. The UK is not economically or politically independent except in the dreams of the underclass, if they get a good lesson in that it may change their minds . Failing that it may make them homeless and you can't vote if you don't have a fixed place to live
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Re: UK EU Referendum

#3426  Postby Byron » Jul 31, 2016 1:54 pm

Setting aside your inimitable flourishes, yes, a bad economy will shift opinion.

Remain's biggest problem throughout is that it was largely a top-down, elitist movement. Since the vote, we've been seeing grassroots support for the EU, which can become the nucleus of a new Remain mass-movement, especially if it can be fused with Labour's Momentum. Yes, Corbyn flits between reluctant Remain and soft Lexit, but his support base is overwhelmingly pro-EU.

Just look what happened in Glasgow at the weekend: some 7000 marched for Yes2, and the Indy campaign's getting back into full swing, organizing through social media and at a local level, without waiting for Holyrood or the SNP to fire the starting pistol. That's was popular sovereignty is.

Brexit was supported by the people, and must be rejected by the people.
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Re: UK EU Referendum

#3427  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jul 31, 2016 3:20 pm

angelo wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:In the two speed Europe envisaged a few years ago Britain would be in the slow speed lane. The original seven would move into the fast lane. This is still a probable outcome made only easier if Britain DOES drop out.

The people have spoken they want out. Why should they be denied their wishes?


Many people had not got a clue what they were voting on. The Leave campaign lied so much that the facts were blurred and misrepresented. Many did not even know what the EU is.

Having a referendum on such a complicated subject was just pure madness.
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Re: UK EU Referendum

#3428  Postby Globe » Jul 31, 2016 3:26 pm

angelo wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:In the two speed Europe envisaged a few years ago Britain would be in the slow speed lane. The original seven would move into the fast lane. This is still a probable outcome made only easier if Britain DOES drop out.

The people have spoken they want out. Why should they be denied their wishes?

If you were told again and again that eating rhubarb leavers was delicious, beneficial and healthy for you, you might believe them and go get some.
But I think most people would tell you "don't", because they are actually quite toxic.
Misinformation does not make right and is in fact contrary to democracy.
If a subject needs doctoring to make people vote the way you want, it's not a vote, it's a manipulation victory.

Of course people are allowed to be stupid. And the rest of us are allowed to point out how stupid they are.
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Re: UK EU Referendum

#3429  Postby Byron » Jul 31, 2016 3:49 pm

Before blaming stupidity, I'd blame chaotic, underfunded schools, ruthless attacks on trade unions, and the systematic destruction of communities and the industries that supported them. And, while it's heresy to say it, there's also a stifling, Janteloven culture that sneers at ambition and ostracizes anyone who "gets above themselves" and refuses to accept "that ain't for the likes of you."

This would never have happened without swathes of Britain being turned into a rust belt, filled with angry, disenfranchised people given no other outlet for change. If Westminster still responded to voters through their unions, local branches, and MPs who weren't parachuted in, it would've read the danger signs decades ago, and headed this off.

Disconnection is the thing to be addressed. Politicians shutting down debate and implementing the vote come what may is just more abdication of responsibility.
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Re: UK EU Referendum

#3430  Postby mrjonno » Jul 31, 2016 4:15 pm

Brexit was supported by the people, and must be rejected by the people.


The only thing Brexit showed is that there is no people, just various classes and tribes with little in common sharing the same land mass
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Re: UK EU Referendum

#3431  Postby angelo » Aug 01, 2016 10:12 am

If the will of the people is ignored because the result went against ones expectations, what's next, a government refusing to step down after an electoral defeat?
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Re: UK EU Referendum

#3432  Postby Fallible » Aug 01, 2016 10:32 am

angelo wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:In the two speed Europe envisaged a few years ago Britain would be in the slow speed lane. The original seven would move into the fast lane. This is still a probable outcome made only easier if Britain DOES drop out.

The people have spoken they want out. Why should they be denied their wishes?


Obviously I'm not a people.
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Re: UK EU Referendum

#3433  Postby angelo » Aug 01, 2016 10:51 am

Isn't democracy grand?
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Re: UK EU Referendum

#3434  Postby mrjonno » Aug 01, 2016 11:08 am

This would never have happened without swathes of Britain being turned into a rust belt, filled with angry, disenfranchised people given no other outlet for change


Many countries have these sorts of regions, by in more advanced countries people tend to move to better areas to find work instead of the magic government fairy landing to fix things.

Our main issues isn't bad areas its simply a welfare state that makes it far too comfortable for people to be a complete waste of space. If you haven't found a job in 12 months should be be forced to move or lose all housing benefit (happy to fund this), if you are on tax credits for month than 12 months you should forced to go back to college or retraining (happy to fund this too) or you lose tax credits.

Pensioners aren't going to take a cut in their pensions (they vote), the middle classes aren't going take increases taxes (they vote) the underclass/working classes even when they vote do it in safe seats.They are about to get some well deserved political education and it will be painful, but pain is a good way of training people
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Re: UK EU Referendum

#3435  Postby angelo » Aug 01, 2016 11:11 am

The hard lessons that there's no such thing as a free lunch! :popcorn:
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Re: UK EU Referendum

#3436  Postby mrjonno » Aug 01, 2016 11:25 am

angelo wrote:The hard lessons that there's no such thing as a free lunch! :popcorn:


I prefer the even harder lesson of no lunch at all. I'm still all for progressive politics where you encourage opportunity, you remove discrimination , you promote education (paid for by the tax payer) but the mess we have in the UK has resulted in simply breeding animals who contribute nothing apart from screwing up society for the rest of us. If Brexit goes ahead I will vote for any political party that ensures the cost of it is paid for by the people who voted for it
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Re: UK EU Referendum

#3437  Postby GrahamH » Aug 01, 2016 11:27 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
angelo wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:In the two speed Europe envisaged a few years ago Britain would be in the slow speed lane. The original seven would move into the fast lane. This is still a probable outcome made only easier if Britain DOES drop out.

The people have spoken they want out. Why should they be denied their wishes?


Many people had not got a clue what they were voting on. The Leave campaign lied so much that the facts were blurred and misrepresented. Many did not even know what the EU is.

Having a referendum on such a complicated subject was just pure madness.


Leave lied, but were call out on their lies. Remain presented forecasts as if they were hard facts, and got called out on that as well.

Frankly I don't think anyone has a clear view of what Brexit will mean for the UK economy, or the EU, in ten years from now.
It was literally impossible to tell the truth about what Brexit means because nobody knows.I count that as good enough reason not to vote for it, but some people are bolder than me. It's a risk. It will have short term costs, but it might have long term gains, or it might not.

People who assume Brexit must be entirely disastrous are unjustified in that view. Presenting it as fact is no less a lie than #350m/wk

It was madness to call the referendum. It was negligent to allow Leave to present a fear and rumour campaign with no vision or credible plan for what Brexit might mean. But it was called. We have a verdict. Now I want to see what it actually is.
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Re: UK EU Referendum

#3438  Postby mrjonno » Aug 02, 2016 10:18 am


People who assume Brexit must be entirely disastrous


It will be disastrous to me because I lose my EU citizenship, which to be honest means more to me than the British economy (I suppose brexiters feel the same with British citizenship). The economy while likely to be seriously hit by leaving the EU isn't the primary concern. The advantageous of the EU is it in the end it doesn't matter how well a country is doing. If it does badly you move to one of the other 27 that is doing well.

The UK leaving the EU to me turns it into a prison, it make be a nice prison or it may be a not so nice one but its still a prison
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Re: UK EU Referendum

#3439  Postby GrahamH » Aug 02, 2016 11:01 am

mrjonno wrote:

It will be disastrous to me because I lose my EU citizenship, which to be honest means more to me than the British economy (I suppose brexiters feel the same with British citizenship).


Given your high opinion of yourself you should have no fears of being unable to emigrate, just as lots of people did before we joined the EU.
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Re: UK EU Referendum

#3440  Postby mrjonno » Aug 02, 2016 11:32 am

GrahamH wrote:
mrjonno wrote:

It will be disastrous to me because I lose my EU citizenship, which to be honest means more to me than the British economy (I suppose brexiters feel the same with British citizenship).


Given your high opinion of yourself you should have no fears of being unable to emigrate, just as lots of people did before we joined the EU.


I could probably could do so, looking at the options at the moment but without the 'right' to stay somewhere as opposed to just a temporary work visa you would be a 2nd class citizen.

Just started taking some more German lessons, Berlin seems to be attracting a lot of Brexile UK tech workers. Apparently Germany language skills for citizenship is mid way between GCSE and A level German which isn't that high. Unfortunately there isn't a right for dual citizenship for non-EU countries but the Germans are far more civilized than Brit's and I reckon they might change that.

Scotland could go independent so that would be an option, safest best is Ireland where Brit's have a right of residence regardless of the EU but worried about their economy and its still 5 years + to get a passport

Alternatively it might just a be soft Brexit and we stay part of the EEA and keep freedom of movement.

I'm trying to adapt to the changing circumstances which I think most the middle classes will do, its the no hopers who voted for Brexit who will really be left in the shit
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