~*~Unofficial 2016 US Presidential Election Thread~*~

[crank]

The sort of OTT religiosity you see today is a relatively new phenomenon. A scant few decades ago it was almost unknown outside a few snake handling areas in the Appalachians. So too the absurd patriotism. There have been eras in the past where it was very religious, and eras when it wasn't. It will pass.

That is why I said "in the last few decades", this trend got accelerated with Reagan, but it had started somewhat before. I'm sure it will pass too. I'm worried about how much longer its run will last and about how more we can take. It still has a substantial hold on enough of the governments, especially state houses, to do irreparable harm through climate change denial. And the shredding of the education system isn't helping, that too has some long term consequences that could last a generation or more.

[willhud9]

I would say the US collectively, in a lot of ways, exhibits profound stupidity not found in other western, developed countries. One obvious thing is the religiosity, and the intellectual pathologies that come along with that.

Australia gave the world Ken Ham and Ray Comfort. The UK is struggling with creationism. These are not just US problems. Nice try though.

Another is the whole 'exceptionalism' BS, with the insanity of holding the flag to be sacred object, criticize these and many will vomit up all kinds of 'unpatriotic' 'hates america' 'not a real american'.

And people don't engage in exceptionism outside the US? There is a poster here who talks about the Netherlands as if it is God's Holy Shitter. Your claim is a generalization and an unsubstantiated one. Nice try though.

You get the same crap if you're not a christian. There's also the contingent of folk, Sarah Palin might be a great example, who disdain education and people with those 'little letters' after their names.

So only America has stupid politicians. I guess Tony Abbott is secretly American. Clearly explains everything.

Is there another country that wallows in ignorance like many here? Maybe the stats are more equal across countries, but these pathologies I've mentioned are esteemed by a lot of the leading figures in government, and religion obviously. Even that religion is esteemed to the degree that it is makes the country as a whole look backwards. I really don't see how it's doubted that over the last few decades at least, the US has lost ground in many ways, that there is a good percentage of the country, probably about a third, that is throwed-off and is quite proud of it.

Do you have any actual citations or figures to back any of your claims up or do you just like making sweeping unsubstantiated generalizations?

Meaning that they think there's something wrong with the rest of us and they're quite proud of themselves for not being like us. What does anyone who is claiming the US is just fine compared with other countries think about theses traits in the US: religiosity, the racism, the incarceration rate and death penalty, and percentage of folks who know almost nothing about other countries and think they have no need to learn and think there's something a little odd if you speak another language?

Yeah there are people who think the US runs things fine. Just as there are people who think the UK runs things fine. Just as there are people who supported Brexit. Just as there are people who hold different opinions from other people. Being American does not make you more likely to hold a wrong opinion, no matter how much you wish to make an unsubstantiated claim to suggest otherwise.

Pretty much your entire post is anecdotal without any real shred of empirical support. But hey, nice try though.

[Thommo]

I would say the US collectively, in a lot of ways, exhibits profound stupidity not found in other western, developed countries. One obvious thing is the religiosity, and the intellectual pathologies that come along with that.

Australia gave the world Ken Ham and Ray Comfort. The UK is struggling with creationism. These are not just US problems. Nice try though.

The UK is not struggling with creationism in the same way the US is, that's definitely a false comparison.

The difference in number of people professing YEC is an order of magnitude different and the scale of issues facing legislation, curriculum, text book writing and so on is even further removed.

Religion, religious profession of public officials, the role of religion in public life and all these related issues is one of the obvious and massive cultural differences that form the backbone of the old saying about two nations divided by a common language. The US cultural landscape is on an entirely different spectrum to the UK on this front.

[crank]

What does anyone who is claiming the US is just fine compared with other countries think about theses traits in the US: religiosity, the racism, the incarceration rate and death penalty, and percentage of folks who know almost nothing about other countries and think they have no need to learn and think there's something a little odd if you speak another language?

Who are these people? I can't think of any active forum member who claims the US is fine in those areas. I think pretty much everybody here acknowledges that the US has many uniquely USian problems. The point of contention is usually about how they should be resolved.

Keep in mind that the point Willhud was making was not that the US is "#1 in freedom, #1 in democracy!!!" but rather that we are comparable to other Western countries in those regards. And as others have pointed out that's true, the US is right in the mix with other western nations with various measurements of such things.

The problem is the strawman that was erected regarding hyper patriotism rather than addressing what was actually being said.

I'm not really sure what you are saying. My post said the stats may be fairley even, but looked at as a whole, there are evident problems, serious problems. I am objecting to someone saying you won't get attacked if you point such things out, or god forbid, fuck with a flag. As to 'freedom' and 'democracy', too vague, especially vague in the minds of those spewing these words almost as a hosanna.

[crank]

I would say the US collectively, in a lot of ways, exhibits profound stupidity not found in other western, developed countries. One obvious thing is the religiosity, and the intellectual pathologies that come along with that.

Australia gave the world Ken Ham and Ray Comfort. The UK is struggling with creationism. These are not just US problems. Nice try though.

Another is the whole 'exceptionalism' BS, with the insanity of holding the flag to be sacred object, criticize these and many will vomit up all kinds of 'unpatriotic' 'hates america' 'not a real american'.

And people don't engage in exceptionism outside the US? There is a poster here who talks about the Netherlands as if it is God's Holy Shitter. Your claim is a generalization and an unsubstantiated one. Nice try though.

You get the same crap if you're not a christian. There's also the contingent of folk, Sarah Palin might be a great example, who disdain education and people with those 'little letters' after their names.

So only America has stupid politicians. I guess Tony Abbott is secretly American. Clearly explains everything.

Is there another country that wallows in ignorance like many here? Maybe the stats are more equal across countries, but these pathologies I've mentioned are esteemed by a lot of the leading figures in government, and religion obviously. Even that religion is esteemed to the degree that it is makes the country as a whole look backwards. I really don't see how it's doubted that over the last few decades at least, the US has lost ground in many ways, that there is a good percentage of the country, probably about a third, that is throwed-off and is quite proud of it.

Do you have any actual citations or figures to back any of your claims up or do you just like making sweeping unsubstantiated generalizations?

Meaning that they think there's something wrong with the rest of us and they're quite proud of themselves for not being like us. What does anyone who is claiming the US is just fine compared with other countries think about theses traits in the US: religiosity, the racism, the incarceration rate and death penalty, and percentage of folks who know almost nothing about other countries and think they have no need to learn and think there's something a little odd if you speak another language?

Yeah there are people who think the US runs things fine. Just as there are people who think the UK runs things fine. Just as there are people who supported Brexit. Just as there are people who hold different opinions from other people. Being American does not make you more likely to hold a wrong opinion, no matter how much you wish to make an unsubstantiated claim to suggest otherwise.

Pretty much your entire post is anecdotal without any real shred of empirical support. But hey, nice try though.

I don't think a single objection you raised addressed what I was saying. Are you reading into it what you think I am saying, or just misreading it?

[willhud9]

I would say the US collectively, in a lot of ways, exhibits profound stupidity not found in other western, developed countries. One obvious thing is the religiosity, and the intellectual pathologies that come along with that.

Australia gave the world Ken Ham and Ray Comfort. The UK is struggling with creationism. These are not just US problems. Nice try though.

The UK is not struggling with creationism in the same way the US is, that's definitely a false comparison.

The difference in number of people professing YEC is an order of magnitude different and the scale of issues facing legislation, curriculum, text book writing and so on is even further removed.

Religion, religious profession of public officials, the role of religion in public life and all these related issues is one of the obvious and massive cultural differences that form the backbone of the old saying about two nations divided by a common language. The US cultural landscape is on an entirely different spectrum to the UK on this front.

I don't actually experience the struggle of creationism in our schools, but in the area I live in we don't have that many religious nuts. The Deep South may have more issues, but Alabama is hundreds and hundreds of miles away from me.

In fact, I don't generally deal with religion on a daily basis either. Its not exactly something that comes up on a regular basis for me and my circle of friends.

But I imagine that is how it is for many people. The perception that the US has a huge religious population is definitely over portrayed due to isolated stories being taken as a whole. Most "Christians" I imagine are cultural Christians who have been conditioned to be Christians and the idea of atheism is considered bad, but in all honesty they lie, swear, fuck, and act just like normal fucking people.

So too be honest when someone talks about the religiosity of America I really don't know what they are talking about because despite me going to Liberty University for a semester, and despite me being a member of a Baptist church for so long, even then religion was not something constantly shoved down my throat.

Even issues like gay marriage I believe have more to do with ick factors and traditions more than a sincere belief that it was a grievous sin. My southern baptist grandmother for example said she doesnt understand homosexuality and therefore she doesn't want to support it because its different and she doesn't understand why things cant just be left alone. Its a naive view, but she is also 74 years old and has lived in Knoxville, Tennessee for most of her life. But when she found out I liked guys she was supportive of me and said, "Do what makes you happy." She probably would not support my right to a gay wedding, but she would come to my wedding and love me because Im family.

So my personal experience is incredibly limited when it comes to this religiosity that plagues America.

[purplerat]

What does anyone who is claiming the US is just fine compared with other countries think about theses traits in the US: religiosity, the racism, the incarceration rate and death penalty, and percentage of folks who know almost nothing about other countries and think they have no need to learn and think there's something a little odd if you speak another language?

Who are these people? I can't think of any active forum member who claims the US is fine in those areas. I think pretty much everybody here acknowledges that the US has many uniquely USian problems. The point of contention is usually about how they should be resolved.

Keep in mind that the point Willhud was making was not that the US is "#1 in freedom, #1 in democracy!!!" but rather that we are comparable to other Western countries in those regards. And as others have pointed out that's true, the US is right in the mix with other western nations with various measurements of such things.

The problem is the strawman that was erected regarding hyper patriotism rather than addressing what was actually being said.

I'm not really sure what you are saying. My post said the stats may be fairley even, but looked at as a whole, there are evident problems, serious problems. I am objecting to someone saying you won't get attacked if you point such things out, or god forbid, fuck with a flag. As to 'freedom' and 'democracy', too vague, especially vague in the minds of those spewing these words almost as a hosanna.

I'm wondering who on this forum your question would be directed towards. I don't think any regular members fit what you describe above and appear to be questioning. It seems like a strawman, but I'm willing to accept that maybe you were just asking it rhetorically knowing it doesn't really apply to anybody here. If so fair enough.

I will apologize in advance as I probably conflated what you said with Willie's assertion that specific people in this thread were the type who get overly sensitive (or even sensitive at all) to any criticism of the US, which is a load of shit and I hope I was mistaken in thinking you were going along with that. So again my apologies if I did in fact make that mistake.

[crank]

The rise of the religious right came in with Reagan and expanded with Bush II, through some very wealthy donors including Rushdooney and Dobson. There were a few ithers along the way, but it was Rushdooney who really got the ball rolling. He was sort of a parallel with Wahabbism in the east. Peak power was under Bush II, and they are just a fraction of what they were before. There are a few of the nuts supporting guys like Cruz, and you see their hand in the religious freedom bills in several conservative states, as well as the 2016 republican platform.

There's no reason not to expect them to fall as quickly as they rose, and there are many reasons to be optimistic about such an outcome. The Religious Right doesn't represent a problem with the country or its government. It's simply a generational thing. Given the current trend in global events, you're facing quite a challenge if you try to claim that USAians are, on average, worse than anyone else.

I've already owned the prison thing. I hope that's a generational thing, too. It probably is. The Religious Right seems to get off a lot on punishing people. Probably due to their abusive collective father figure.

It is a problem with the government and therefore the country as a whole, because it is the government, at least a good chunk of it. Not all of their insane attempts at legislation fail, and even of some get overturned in court, they can do horrible damage to those caught up in them at the time.

The reason the right likes to punish is because conservative minds think that way. They tend to the authoritarian, manichean, atonement and the sacred and pure are very real and very important, distrust/dislike the 'other', aren't open to new experiences, and can't stand ambiguity--need closure. I think Johnathan Haidt's ideas on the lib/conservative dichotomy in ideas of morality are onto something, they explain a lot of shit. Chris Mooney has gone into a lot of these things, like with his "The Republican Brain. Look for Haidt on youtube, he's got a shitload of talks. His appearance at Beyond Belief in '08 and I think '09, and TEDTalk back around same time are good places to start if anyone interested.

[crank]

I would say the US collectively, in a lot of ways, exhibits profound stupidity not found in other western, developed countries. One obvious thing is the religiosity, and the intellectual pathologies that come along with that.

Australia gave the world Ken Ham and Ray Comfort. The UK is struggling with creationism. These are not just US problems. Nice try though.

The UK is not struggling with creationism in the same way the US is, that's definitely a false comparison.

The difference in number of people professing YEC is an order of magnitude different and the scale of issues facing legislation, curriculum, text book writing and so on is even further removed.

Religion, religious profession of public officials, the role of religion in public life and all these related issues is one of the obvious and massive cultural differences that form the backbone of the old saying about two nations divided by a common language. The US cultural landscape is on an entirely different spectrum to the UK on this front.

I don't actually experience the struggle of creationism in our schools, but in the area I live in we don't have that many religious nuts. The Deep South may have more issues, but Alabama is hundreds and hundreds of miles away from me.

In fact, I don't generally deal with religion on a daily basis either. Its not exactly something that comes up on a regular basis for me and my circle of friends.

But I imagine that is how it is for many people. The perception that the US has a huge religious population is definitely over portrayed due to isolated stories being taken as a whole. Most "Christians" I imagine are cultural Christians who have been conditioned to be Christians and the idea of atheism is considered bad, but in all honesty they lie, swear, fuck, and act just like normal fucking people.

So too be honest when someone talks about the religiosity of America I really don't know what they are talking about because despite me going to Liberty University for a semester, and despite me being a member of a Baptist church for so long, even then religion was not something constantly shoved down my throat.

Even issues like gay marriage I believe have more to do with ick factors and traditions more than a sincere belief that it was a grievous sin. My southern baptist grandmother for example said she doesnt understand homosexuality and therefore she doesn't want to support it because its different and she doesn't understand why things cant just be left alone. Its a naive view, but she is also 74 years old and has lived in Knoxville, Tennessee for most of her life. But when she found out I liked guys she was supportive of me and said, "Do what makes you happy." She probably would not support my right to a gay wedding, but she would come to my wedding and love me because Im family.

So my personal experience is incredibly limited when it comes to this religiosity that plagues America.

There's nothing wrong with being ignorant, it's resisting learning that's a problem. If you're not resisting, a good place to go would be to Sean Faircloth's book: Attack of the Theocrats: How the Religious Right Harms Us All—and What We Can Do about It . It's an easy read, I think the title might be half the book. Or do what I do, watch videos, I can't actually read.

[purplerat]

IDK, even conservatives are coming around to the problems of over incarceration. The Koch brothers of all people are big supporters of reforming the criminal justice system.

The big problem now and going forward is how hooked we are on the big money that is the prison industry. That goes both for big businesses who've gotten their hooks into prisons as well as the government and the general public who rely on prison systems to prop up the economy. Here in upstate NY there are whole towns that would literally disappear if the prison they're so fortunate to have where to shut down. It's a really perverse way to funnel money from wealthy areas like NYC who'd rather not house their criminals to poorer areas that will gladly do it for the boost to the economy. It's really fucked up but with the powers that be who have such vested interest in the system it's going to be really hard to change regardless of which side of the political spectrum is for or against it.

[purplerat]

Australia gave the world Ken Ham and Ray Comfort. The UK is struggling with creationism. These are not just US problems. Nice try though.

The UK is not struggling with creationism in the same way the US is, that's definitely a false comparison.

The difference in number of people professing YEC is an order of magnitude different and the scale of issues facing legislation, curriculum, text book writing and so on is even further removed.

Religion, religious profession of public officials, the role of religion in public life and all these related issues is one of the obvious and massive cultural differences that form the backbone of the old saying about two nations divided by a common language. The US cultural landscape is on an entirely different spectrum to the UK on this front.

I don't actually experience the struggle of creationism in our schools, but in the area I live in we don't have that many religious nuts. The Deep South may have more issues, but Alabama is hundreds and hundreds of miles away from me.

In fact, I don't generally deal with religion on a daily basis either. Its not exactly something that comes up on a regular basis for me and my circle of friends.

But I imagine that is how it is for many people. The perception that the US has a huge religious population is definitely over portrayed due to isolated stories being taken as a whole. Most "Christians" I imagine are cultural Christians who have been conditioned to be Christians and the idea of atheism is considered bad, but in all honesty they lie, swear, fuck, and act just like normal fucking people.

So too be honest when someone talks about the religiosity of America I really don't know what they are talking about because despite me going to Liberty University for a semester, and despite me being a member of a Baptist church for so long, even then religion was not something constantly shoved down my throat.

Even issues like gay marriage I believe have more to do with ick factors and traditions more than a sincere belief that it was a grievous sin. My southern baptist grandmother for example said she doesnt understand homosexuality and therefore she doesn't want to support it because its different and she doesn't understand why things cant just be left alone. Its a naive view, but she is also 74 years old and has lived in Knoxville, Tennessee for most of her life. But when she found out I liked guys she was supportive of me and said, "Do what makes you happy." She probably would not support my right to a gay wedding, but she would come to my wedding and love me because Im family.

So my personal experience is incredibly limited when it comes to this religiosity that plagues America.

There's nothing wrong with being ignorant, it's resisting learning that's a problem. If you're not resisting, a good place to go would be to Sean Faircloth's book: Attack of the Theocrats: How the Religious Right Harms Us All—and What We Can Do about It . It's an easy read, I think the title might be half the book. Or do what I do, watch videos, I can't actually read.

There's also nothing wrong with disagreeing without saying the other side is ignorant or uninformed.

I think Will makes a number of really good points and there is a very strong case to make that much of what is credited to the religious-right in the US is really more general tribalism than deeply seeded bat shit crazy religious beliefs.

That type of tribalism is certainly rampant in other parts of the world as well (see Brexit) so it really isn't all that different if you look at it that way.

[crank]

What does anyone who is claiming the US is just fine compared with other countries think about theses traits in the US: religiosity, the racism, the incarceration rate and death penalty, and percentage of folks who know almost nothing about other countries and think they have no need to learn and think there's something a little odd if you speak another language?

Who are these people? I can't think of any active forum member who claims the US is fine in those areas. I think pretty much everybody here acknowledges that the US has many uniquely USian problems. The point of contention is usually about how they should be resolved.

Keep in mind that the point Willhud was making was not that the US is "#1 in freedom, #1 in democracy!!!" but rather that we are comparable to other Western countries in those regards. And as others have pointed out that's true, the US is right in the mix with other western nations with various measurements of such things.

The problem is the strawman that was erected regarding hyper patriotism rather than addressing what was actually being said.

I'm not really sure what you are saying. My post said the stats may be fairley even, but looked at as a whole, there are evident problems, serious problems. I am objecting to someone saying you won't get attacked if you point such things out, or god forbid, fuck with a flag. As to 'freedom' and 'democracy', too vague, especially vague in the minds of those spewing these words almost as a hosanna.

I'm wondering who on this forum your question would be directed towards. I don't think any regular members fit what you describe above and appear to be questioning. It seems like a strawman, but I'm willing to accept that maybe you were just asking it rhetorically knowing it doesn't really apply to anybody here. If so fair enough.

I will apologize in advance as I probably conflated what you said with Willie's assertion that specific people in this thread were the type who get overly sensitive (or even sensitive at all) to any criticism of the US, which is a load of shit and I hope I was mistaken in thinking you were going along with that. So again my apologies if I did in fact make that mistake.

I wasn't reading close enough a bunch of posts, just saw a few claims here and there, I was addressing the country at large, not specific people here, so I apologize if I was conflating, well, a bunch of posts. However, whether there are any here overly sensitive to criticism of the US, I will say that I routinely get accused of always criticizing the US. I think the implications are evident.

[Willie71]

I would say the US collectively, in a lot of ways, exhibits profound stupidity not found in other western, developed countries. One obvious thing is the religiosity, and the intellectual pathologies that come along with that.

Australia gave the world Ken Ham and Ray Comfort. The UK is struggling with creationism. These are not just US problems. Nice try though.

The UK is not struggling with creationism in the same way the US is, that's definitely a false comparison.

The difference in number of people professing YEC is an order of magnitude different and the scale of issues facing legislation, curriculum, text book writing and so on is even further removed.

Religion, religious profession of public officials, the role of religion in public life and all these related issues is one of the obvious and massive cultural differences that form the backbone of the old saying about two nations divided by a common language. The US cultural landscape is on an entirely different spectrum to the UK on this front.

I don't actually experience the struggle of creationism in our schools, but in the area I live in we don't have that many religious nuts. The Deep South may have more issues, but Alabama is hundreds and hundreds of miles away from me.

In fact, I don't generally deal with religion on a daily basis either. Its not exactly something that comes up on a regular basis for me and my circle of friends.

But I imagine that is how it is for many people. The perception that the US has a huge religious population is definitely over portrayed due to isolated stories being taken as a whole. Most "Christians" I imagine are cultural Christians who have been conditioned to be Christians and the idea of atheism is considered bad, but in all honesty they lie, swear, fuck, and act just like normal fucking people.

So too be honest when someone talks about the religiosity of America I really don't know what they are talking about because despite me going to Liberty University for a semester, and despite me being a member of a Baptist church for so long, even then religion was not something constantly shoved down my throat.

Even issues like gay marriage I believe have more to do with ick factors and traditions more than a sincere belief that it was a grievous sin. My southern baptist grandmother for example said she doesnt understand homosexuality and therefore she doesn't want to support it because its different and she doesn't understand why things cant just be left alone. Its a naive view, but she is also 74 years old and has lived in Knoxville, Tennessee for most of her life. But when she found out I liked guys she was supportive of me and said, "Do what makes you happy." She probably would not support my right to a gay wedding, but she would come to my wedding and love me because Im family.

So my personal experience is incredibly limited when it comes to this religiosity that plagues America.

This is one of the general criticisms of American culture. The individualism, if it doesn't affect you personally, it isn't really a problem. This bothers a lot of people.

[willhud9]

I did not say it wasn't a problem.

I am questioning the claim that it is as big as a problem as people make it out to be.

Sure there are religious fundamentals who wish to incorporate their fundie beliefs into the school systems and law.

But time and time again the courts have pretty much rejected these fundamentalists their goals. Even in smaller counties where religious fundamentalism may be more prevalent secular principles are steadily being held in schools.

So is America overwhelmingly more religious than other countries? You cannot answer that with any degree of certainty. As I said many Christians I personally know are Christians out of tradition. They don't attend church, they don't really know or read the Bible, and while they may mention praying and God's plan for them, etc. there really is no deep seated religious belief there....I would know I was a fundamentalist southern Baptist who did have a deep seated religious belief.

Furthermore, America is too large to make a good comparison. New England for example is not the same as the Bible Belt...and Atlanta, Georgia is not the same as Jackson, Mississippi.

So while yes it does not affect me personally; objectively I don't really see it as a major problem either. I see it more as a joke. The religious right scrambling in the hopes they can achieve something major. Now that the sails are deflated in regards to gay rights they are trying to scramble for other things and it just makes them look foolish.

[Scot Dutchy]

The fact that abortions and gay marriages are still being discussed shows how far behind America is.

We have like so many European countries stopped discussing the rights of people to have same sex marriages and controlling their own bodies for the last 15 years. The right wing religious wingnuts are still opposed to it and getting laws changed.

[crank]

I did not say it wasn't a problem.

I am questioning the claim that it is as big as a problem as people make it out to be.

Sure there are religious fundamentals who wish to incorporate their fundie beliefs into the school systems and law.

But time and time again the courts have pretty much rejected these fundamentalists their goals. Even in smaller counties where religious fundamentalism may be more prevalent secular principles are steadily being held in schools.

So is America overwhelmingly more religious than other countries? You cannot answer that with any degree of certainty. As I said many Christians I personally know are Christians out of tradition. They don't attend church, they don't really know or read the Bible, and while they may mention praying and God's plan for them, etc. there really is no deep seated religious belief there....I would know I was a fundamentalist southern Baptist who did have a deep seated religious belief.

Furthermore, America is too large to make a good comparison. New England for example is not the same as the Bible Belt...and Atlanta, Georgia is not the same as Jackson, Mississippi.

So while yes it does not affect me personally; objectively I don't really see it as a major problem either. I see it more as a joke. The religious right scrambling in the hopes they can achieve something major. Now that the sails are deflated in regards to gay rights they are trying to scramble for other things and it just makes them look foolish.

The book I recommended gives example after example of real harms cause by how thoroughly christians have managed to insert their dogmas into laws. The whole state of texas was rid of many of its abortion clinics because of it. Sure, SCOTUS just overturned, but after almost 2 years. Other states have similar laws. It isn't hard to find horror stories of the results. But you'd have to actually look, and care about it. Blithely saying you 'objectively' don't see the problem is rather telling, and hardly justification for making your argument.

[willhud9]

The issue is the whole state of Texas is hardly representative of the us as a whole. Same thing with the Bible Belt, etc. saying its a big issue there makes sense. Saying its a big issue facing America? Not so much.

[Willie71]

The issue is the whole state of Texas is hardly representative of the us as a whole. Same thing with the Bible Belt, etc. saying its a big issue there makes sense. Saying its a big issue facing America? Not so much.

Where are the moderate Americans calling out the extremist Americans? The world needs to have a ban on all American travel until we can figure out what is going on.

[proudfootz]

The issue is the whole state of Texas is hardly representative of the us as a whole. Same thing with the Bible Belt, etc. saying its a big issue there makes sense. Saying its a big issue facing America? Not so much.

Where are the moderate Americans calling out the extremist Americans? The world needs to have a ban on all American travel until we can figure out what is going on.

I think the so-called moderates are secretly aiding and abetting the extremists.

Better safe than sorry!

[laklak]

I don't even know if I'm a moderate or an extremist. The definition of extremist seems to change without notice. I did decide to keep all the magazines loaded, that's probably extreme. Plus I put a "Pokeman collectors in my back yard will be shot and fed to the pigs". That, however, I do not see as extreme, it's just common sense. Don't want the pigs to eat you? Stay the fuck out of my yard. Pretty simple, actually.