~*~Unofficial 2016 US Presidential Election Thread~*~

[purplerat]

Id think sanders supporters would proudly own up to being to the extreme of the existing us political spectrum.

As I pointed out - what is considered 'extremist' is a fluid concept.

Fluid yes but generally without dramatic shifts. Sanders would represent a dramatic shift. Im confused as to why any of his supporters would get defensive over that.

[Thommo]

Id think sanders supporters would proudly own up to being to the extreme of the existing us political spectrum.

As I pointed out - what is considered 'extremist' is a fluid concept.

Fluid yes but generally without dramatic shifts. Sanders would represent a dramatic shift. Im confused as to why any of his supporters would get defensive over that.

Extreme and extremist have pretty negative connotations. Radical or revolutionary are probably more palatable terms.

Let's face it, Bernie's worst supporters are hardly ISIS, are they?

(Having said that pretending he's centrist in terms of US politics is very silly, but I've got enough on my plate with listening to people claim Jeremy Corbyn is a moderate Keynesian towards the centre of UK politics here)

[crank]

The issue is the whole state of Texas is hardly representative of the us as a whole. Same thing with the Bible Belt, etc. saying its a big issue there makes sense. Saying its a big issue facing America? Not so much.

'Telling' I said and you've really confirmed. I'm glad some of us are so comfortable coming to 'objective' conclusions based solely on their own, admitted, limited observations. I don't think 'objective' works quite like that. Regular perusers of this forum would need some pretty fucking effective blinders to avoid exposure to a vast range of negative impacts religious belief inflicts on the US. You see this issue as a joke? Really?

I said my direct personal experience is limited in that I have not seen much religious fuckwittery. Despite the fact that i grew up in a blended home between Italian Roman Catholics on my mother's side and Southern Baptists on my father's side, went to Liberty University, was an active and involved member of my church community, etc. I still have yet to encounter the degree of religious problems people seem to be expressing.

Then again my tolerance for religious expression may of course be greater than other people. I am of the opinion that women should not be barred from wearing hijab's in courtrooms, etc.

However, my objective experience in actually researching this issue is more involved. You put words in my mouth and accused me of having limited knowledge. I never once said that. I have limited direct experience. Two different things. My limited direct experience is still probably greater than your limited direct experience in regards to this issue, but comparing anecdotes is not really effective.

When it comes to religion in the United States I fear many atheists on this forum tend to lose some of their credibility. I am all for secularism, but I am not for oppressive secularism. Time and time again history has shown us the more tolerant and free a society treats the religious members of society the more secular it becomes over time.

But in all honesty Crank, discussing this with you would get nowhere. After all, all you have done is tell me to read a book without any reference or citation from said book to demonstrate how it is relevant and worth my time to actually read, and then whine when I raise a point of contention against a small assertion you made.

And you have not actually addressed anything of my post aside to post this snide ad hom of yours. But that's not really surprising either.

The discussion can't go anywhere because you refuse to look at the evidence and have an incredibly parochial point of view. On top of that, you appear to know almost nothing of current events when it comes to religious BS mucking up our politics. FFS, look at the massive efforts at fucking women and LGBT folk going on in state house after state house. Look at Bush's disastrous AIDS policies in helping Africa, look at all the abstinence only BS that has plagued so many states, or how they've dicked with Obama care, trying to destroy it by ridiculous abortion restrictions. FFS, how utterly unaware can you possibly be? Is it deliberate? I could go on for pages, I suggested checking out a book or videos, but I have to quote it before you'll even consider to take the time? Fuck that, if you want to be impervious to facts, go right on ahead, it's all quite telling. It ain't ad hom when you give explicit rationales. I can see the value of a Liberty U education, and that's another harm to the country religion inflicts, spreading crap education to as many as they can possibly lay their hands on.

[proudfootz]

Looks like Clinton, and by extension her supporters, are the ones closer to the edge:

Relative to those arbitrary axis sure. Relative to us politics its clear on that graph that bernie is towards the extreme.

Yes, Sanders' positions are extremely moderate and sensible.

According to what standard? and why is that standard superior to other standards?

As you must be aware, there are many standards which might be applied. So someone randomly leaping up to shout about Sanders's alleged 'extremism' is what you could ask those same 'gotcha' questions about.

From my vantage point, Sander's positions are extremely costly, would increase my monthly taxes to an uncomfortable amount where even my savings from health insurance do not fully cover my tax increase and without a pay increase I would not be able to afford my current method of living which puts an undue burden on myself and my disabled mother would leads to complications in trying to find housing in a good part of my county. So yay, I may be able to go to college for free, but without a roof over my head and internet with today's colleges relying on email and technology I would be screwed.

His positions seem impractical and overly hopeful from this vantage point. But hey you know. Perspective.

Yes, perspective.

Rather curious about how you calculated how much your taxes would actually go up, and how the raise in wages and lowering of insurance rates would offset that. Or is there some service which provided you with all that information?

[proudfootz]

Id think sanders supporters would proudly own up to being to the extreme of the existing us political spectrum.

As I pointed out - what is considered 'extremist' is a fluid concept.

Fluid yes but generally without dramatic shifts. Sanders would represent a dramatic shift. Im confused as to why any of his supporters would get defensive over that.

Given that the US 'mainstream' has taken a dramatic shift into rightwingism over the course of my lifetime, I'm rather dismayed by the 'new normal' which tries to portray rather bland middle of the road policies on government that wouldn't be out of place in most civilized countries as being 'extremist'.

[Thommo]

UHC. Same sex marriage. Rising tax to GDP.

Dramatic swing to the right sounds legit?

[proudfootz]

Id think sanders supporters would proudly own up to being to the extreme of the existing us political spectrum.

As I pointed out - what is considered 'extremist' is a fluid concept.

Fluid yes but generally without dramatic shifts. Sanders would represent a dramatic shift. Im confused as to why any of his supporters would get defensive over that.

Extreme and extremist have pretty negative connotations. Radical or revolutionary are probably more palatable terms.

Let's face it, Bernie's worst supporters are hardly ISIS, are they?

(Having said that pretending he's centrist in terms of US politics is very silly, but I've got enough on my plate with listening to people claim Jeremy Corbyn is a moderate Keynesian towards the centre of UK politics here)

Yes, when we talk about 'religious extremism' we're not talking about the good guys. But who knows? Maybe from the perspective of some folks the Unitarians are 'extremist'.

Considering the amount of support Trump is getting, I suppose people who don't threaten violence are somehow 'extremist' on some new scale of American political thought.

[Oldskeptic]

The issue is the whole state of Texas is hardly representative of the us as a whole. Same thing with the Bible Belt, etc. saying its a big issue there makes sense. Saying its a big issue facing America? Not so much.

Where are the moderate Americans calling out the extremist Americans?

Well, I've called you out and Crank and TYT, Alex Jones, Al Sharpton, Bernie Sanders, Ted Cruz, Sean Hannity, Black Lives Matter, the Green Party, and a whole host of other extremists.

The world needs to have a ban on all American travel until we can figure out what is going on.

Wow! No bigotry there against a whole shit load of people, 330 million strong, that you want to put altogether in the same basket.

[proudfootz]

UHC.

Yes, universal health care was one of Sanders's things. Not gonna happen - too 'extremist'.

Same sex marriage.

Definitely a good thing!

Rising tax to GDP.

Taxes to pay for military and prisons? Less money for schools. And constantly shifting tax burdens from corporations and wealthy classes which the rest have to make up.

Dramatic swing to the right sounds legit?

Look at the sorts of Presidents we've gotten; Reagan (now too 'liberal' for 1/2 of the Two Party SystemTM), B.Clinton (NAFTA, gutting welfare, DOMA, Omnibus Crime Bill, Don't Ask Don't Tell, repeal Glass–Steagall, etc), GW Bush (the less said, the better), Obama.

Plus the constant drumbeat of rightwing organizations shaping laws and even framing the terms of debate (from ALEC to the Kochs, to FOX News and increased corporate control of all media).

...and now Trump.

[crank]

The issue is the whole state of Texas is hardly representative of the us as a whole. Same thing with the Bible Belt, etc. saying its a big issue there makes sense. Saying its a big issue facing America? Not so much.

Where are the moderate Americans calling out the extremist Americans? The world needs to have a ban on all American travel until we can figure out what is going on.

For example

That guy don't talk right. He got the right ideas though. Just cuz you're a hick don't mean you ain't got sense.

[purplerat]

Id think sanders supporters would proudly own up to being to the extreme of the existing us political spectrum.

As I pointed out - what is considered 'extremist' is a fluid concept.

Fluid yes but generally without dramatic shifts. Sanders would represent a dramatic shift. Im confused as to why any of his supporters would get defensive over that.

Extreme and extremist have pretty negative connotations. Radical or revolutionary are probably more palatable terms.

Let's face it, Bernie's worst supporters are hardly ISIS, are they?

(Having said that pretending he's centrist in terms of US politics is very silly, but I've got enough on my plate with listening to people claim Jeremy Corbyn is a moderate Keynesian towards the centre of UK politics here)

You're right. I was specifically addressing the use of extremist in terms of US politics and not trying to paint Bernie supporters as terrorist (I was addressing somebody else's use of the term). The point being that Bernie is to the political extreme in the US so if I were a Bernie supporter I'd be careful tossing around terms like 'extremist' unless I were comfortable owning it myself.

[purplerat]

As I pointed out - what is considered 'extremist' is a fluid concept.

Fluid yes but generally without dramatic shifts. Sanders would represent a dramatic shift. Im confused as to why any of his supporters would get defensive over that.

Extreme and extremist have pretty negative connotations. Radical or revolutionary are probably more palatable terms.

Let's face it, Bernie's worst supporters are hardly ISIS, are they?

(Having said that pretending he's centrist in terms of US politics is very silly, but I've got enough on my plate with listening to people claim Jeremy Corbyn is a moderate Keynesian towards the centre of UK politics here)

Yes, when we talk about 'religious extremism' we're not talking about the good guys. But who knows? Maybe from the perspective of some folks the Unitarians are 'extremist'.

Considering the amount of support Trump is getting, I suppose people who don't threaten violence are somehow 'extremist' on some new scale of American political thought.

I think once you start talking about US religious extremists* as if it's the same thing as ISIS you've already opened that can of worms and shouldn't be annoyed when it gets turned back around on you.

*not including actual US jihadist

[thaesofereode]

Meantime, Ohio's open carry cannot be suspended in time to prevent possible bloodshed.

http://usuncut.com/politics/cleveland-p ... -carry-ban

And Colbert pulls a fast one: http://usuncut.com/politics/stephen-col ... d-mic-rnc/

[Willie71]

Looks like Clinton, and by extension her supporters, are the ones closer to the edge:

Relative to those arbitrary axis sure. Relative to us politics its clear on that graph that bernie is towards the extreme.

Yes, Sanders' positions are extremely moderate and sensible.

According to what standard? and why is that standard superior to other standards?

From my vantage point, Sander's positions are extremely costly, would increase my monthly taxes to an uncomfortable amount where even my savings from health insurance do not fully cover my tax increase and without a pay increase I would not be able to afford my current method of living which puts an undue burden on myself and my disabled mother would leads to complications in trying to find housing in a good part of my county. So yay, I may be able to go to college for free, but without a roof over my head and internet with today's colleges relying on email and technology I would be screwed.

His positions seem impractical and overly hopeful from this vantage point. But hey you know. Perspective.

FFS, the extreme left is communism. When looking at where Sanders is between communism and unregulated free market nuttery, he is in the center. What standard would put him farther to the left?

[Rachel Bronwyn]

Communism doesn't even exist in American politics. Sanders is as far left as you go in the US, politically.

[Willie71]

Communism doesn't even exist in American politics. Sanders is as far left as you go in the US, politically.

This is why American standards are useless when talking about left and right. You aren't suggesting that Americans aren't aware that communism exists, and therefore isn't part of left and right politically, are you? Sanders is not far left, outside a skewed American propaganda campaign to demonize anything that isn't pro corporate.

Oh, and Jill Stein is still farther left than Bernie, and still not anywhere close to communism.

[willhud9]

Its the other way around. Left and right become more ambiguous once you leave the US. There are just too many definitions of left and right outside the US.

[Rachel Bronwyn]

Communism doesn't even exist in American politics. Sanders is as far left as you go in the US, politically.

This is why American standards are useless when talking about left and right.

Except when you're talking about American politics specifically.

[proudfootz]

Fluid yes but generally without dramatic shifts. Sanders would represent a dramatic shift. Im confused as to why any of his supporters would get defensive over that.

Extreme and extremist have pretty negative connotations. Radical or revolutionary are probably more palatable terms.

Let's face it, Bernie's worst supporters are hardly ISIS, are they?

(Having said that pretending he's centrist in terms of US politics is very silly, but I've got enough on my plate with listening to people claim Jeremy Corbyn is a moderate Keynesian towards the centre of UK politics here)

Yes, when we talk about 'religious extremism' we're not talking about the good guys. But who knows? Maybe from the perspective of some folks the Unitarians are 'extremist'.

Considering the amount of support Trump is getting, I suppose people who don't threaten violence are somehow 'extremist' on some new scale of American political thought.

I think once you start talking about US religious extremists* as if it's the same thing as ISIS you've already opened that can of worms and shouldn't be annoyed when it gets turned back around on you.

*not including actual US jihadist

Come to think of it, there are religious folks who are into terrorism and assassination and want to 'take their country back' infesting the USA.

Not sure if it was me who brought it up, though. So if there's an open can of worms you may need to look elsewhere.

[proudfootz]

Communism doesn't even exist in American politics. Sanders is as far left as you go in the US, politically.

Even if that is true, I think it's a misnomer to suggest that his moderate platform is 'extremist' just because everyone else is batshit insane.