GrahamH(#2150) wrote:zoon wrote:There’s an interesting difference (as I see it) between a case where someone is not freely choosing their preferences only because their material brain is determinate, and the case where they are not freely choosing their preferences because someone else is clearly (to an outside observer) deciding their preferences for them. In the first case we might be inclined to say that the person is still exercising all the free will they need as humans, but in the second case we would be inclined to say that they are not successfully exercising the kind of free will we want to have, even if they were happily unaware of being under another person’s control.
We have no way to tell if our preferences are due someone else's will, some other determinism, pure chance or whatever.
We do, as a part of ordinary social life, check whether we are being unduly influenced by other people, it is something we can judge, though imperfectly. One of the ways we do it is by watching to see whether other people are being unknowingly influenced, and then checking back to see if it’s happening to us. Of course, an evil demon could be controlling us at all times, but that’s invisible pink unicorn territory.
GrahamH(#2150) wrote:How could we be any more or less free in ourselves, whichever case applied?
We’ve evolved to want to avoid, as far as possible, being controlled by others without knowing it – individuals who let it happen would be less likely to pass on their own genes. Human groups cooperate closely, we let ourselves be controlled by others in order to gain the benefits of cooperation, but we need to be careful not to be over-controlled. This is why I think we are careful to allow each other a measure of independence, the social free will which is real and useful and not an illusion.
GrahamH(#2150) wrote:"all the free will they need as humans".
"the kind of free will we want to have".
Do we need "free will"?
Is there any reason to think that it would have to be "The sort we want to have"?
I think we do want social free will, the sort that slaves and children and mentally disabled people have far less of because they are controlled by others. It’s also the sort that we would not have if someone else was determining our preferences for us through direct manipulation of the brain. We need it in the sense that we’ve evolved to want it badly, because individuals in earlier generations who failed to get it were also less successful in passing on their genes. (That, in the end, is the reason we want or need anything: food, shelter, status, answers to philosophical questions, whatever.)
GrahamH(#2150) wrote:Some people like the idea that they are above nature, some pure creative force. So what?
Sure. I think it’s an illusion we fall into very easily, but we can do without it.