Moonwatcher wrote:
Interesting. I did a check on Wikipedia of the various dates attributed by scholars to the four gospels and the range was as follows:

Mark: c. 68–73,[33] c. 65–70.[34]
Matthew: c. 70–100,[33] c. 80–85.[34]
Luke: c. 80–100, with most arguing for somewhere around 85,[33] c. 80–85.[34]
John: c. 90–100,[34] c. 90–110,[35] The majority view is that it was written in stages, so there was no one date of composition.

Obviously, the earliest dates are literalist believer dates. For instance, anything dated before AD 70 is preposterous.

That there are no mentions of these gospels prior to 175 is a significant piece of evidence and, in your case, I have a suspicion the opinion comes from someone not driven by agenda.

What are your thoughts as to why so many scholars, secular included, accept the earlier dates? Tradition? Linguistic evidence in choice of words, etc., matching earlier times?

The explanation for the various gospels and the inclusion of Paul who presents a different take on Jesus may well be explained by placating hugely different views of what the religion was.

What are my thoughts as to why so many scholars accept the early dates? A question that’s repeatedly crossed my mind for some years now!

I’d love to put the question directly to Doherty, Erhman or Carrier: “Without a shred of supporting evidence - in fact with all of the available evidence pointing to a much later date, and with no mention by any writer whatsoever, friendly or foe, prior to say 175 AD - why do you still assert that the canonical gospels were produced some time in the first century, or shortly thereafter? On what exactly do you base such a conclusion?”

In fact, there’s scarcely any doubt that the four gospels were introduced into general circulation through the agency of Irenaeus in Gaul, Clement in Alexandria, and Tertullian in Northern Africa, and who concurrently laid the foundations for eventual Roman Catholic Supremacy.

In his third book against Heresies, written around 190 AD or so, Irenaeus already saw fit to express the opinion that every church ought to agree with the Church of Rome; Tertullian was in full agreement therewith, those of Clement were somewhat less explicit.

I think that most of the mainstream authors do not wish to be seen as too extreme, too far out of step with either their colleagues or the work of the majority of preceding scholars, other than perhaps having already committed themselves to the orthodox dates/pattern previously.

Imagine yourself as one of the mentioned writers: you’ve published various books and given a number of lectures, both predicated on the generally-accepted gospel dates (and you may even have a website narrating Christianity’s development along the same lines). I doubt you’d be too impressed if someone then came along and turned the whole apple-cart upside down!


Dangerous words mentioning Marcionism, RealityRules, especially in connection with Paul: we’ll be here forever!

Mike S wrote:

What are my thoughts as to why so many scholars accept the early dates? A question that’s repeatedly crossed my mind for some years now!

I’d love to put the question directly to Doherty, Erhman or Carrier: “Without a shred of supporting evidence - in fact with all of the available evidence pointing to a much later date, and with no mention by any writer whatsoever, friendly or foe, prior to say 175 AD - why do you still assert that the canonical gospels were produced some time in the first century, or shortly thereafter? On what exactly do you base such a conclusion?”



In fact, there’s scarcely any doubt that the four gospels were introduced into general circulation through the agency of Irenaeus in Gaul, Clement in Alexandria, and Tertullian in Northern Africa, and who concurrently laid the foundations for eventual Roman Catholic Supremacy.

The same questions can be asked of the Pauline Corpus. The supposed first writing to identify letters to seven Churches under the name of and Pastorals is the same "Against Heresies" attributed to Irenaeus.

Who claimed there were FOUR Canonised Gospels before "Against Heresies"?

Who claimed a single person wrote ALL Epistles before "Against Heresies"?

How in the world could Irenaeus introduced the Gospels into circulation when he argued that Jesus was crucified as an old man about 20 years after the 15th of Tiberius.

The Gospels claim Jesus was crucified under Pilate c 27-37 CE--NOT 49 CE.

Mike S wrote:In his third book against Heresies, written around 190 AD or so, Irenaeus already saw fit to express the opinion that every church ought to agree with the Church of Rome; Tertullian was in full agreement therewith, those of Clement were somewhat less explicit.

The writings of Tertullian were NOT in full agreement with those of Irenaeus.

Tertullian writings do not agree that Jesus was crucified when he was about to be fifty years old.

Mike S wrote:I think that most of the mainstream authors do not wish to be seen as too extreme, too far out of step with either their colleagues or the work of the majority of preceding scholars, other than perhaps having already committed themselves to the orthodox dates/pattern previously.

That is precisely the problem. Evidence is no longer a requirement---one must become mainstream and commit WITHOUT evidence.

Mike S wrote:Imagine yourself as one of the mentioned writers: you’ve published various books and given a number of lectures, both predicated on the generally-accepted gospel dates (and you may even have a website narrating Christianity’s development along the same lines). I doubt you’d be too impressed if someone then came along and turned the whole apple-cart upside down!

Who'd be impressed if someone was to argue that the Pauline Corpus are all late writings based on the evidence from antiquity?

People want to be associated with the crowd.

Moonwatcher wrote:Just for my own interests, with possibilities of what it and is not authentic flying back and forth and perhaps, for myself, wanting to get back to something more basic: what precisely constitutes a Historical Jesus?

By definition, all religions and, indeed, just about any human endeavor, have a history. How much of a basis in reality does Jesus need to have in order for there to have been a Historical Jesus?

We all agree the final product we see in the Gospels is a fantasy.

Does such a person have to have generally taught the sorts of things the Jesus of the mythology taught?

Does he have to have been crucified?

Does he have to just, in some vague and small way, have said and done something that just remotely resembles the mythology in the minutest way?

Between the extremes of "There was this guy who did 90% of the non-magical stuff and said most of the stuff attributed to him" and "There was not ever in the remotest way a historical person and the whole thing didn't even get made up at all at all until the 3rd century", there's a vast in-between where most opinion falls.

I just wonder where people fall on that scale. I'm not asking anybody to prove their opinion is true. I'm just asking where people think they fall on the scale.

This is a dangerous question, Moonwatcher, since once any HJ-er like myself or MS2 gives our honest assessment based on the latest secular scholarship, every dedicated snarker MJ-er will feel honor bound to show their myther loyalty by knee-jerking a salaaming How DAAAAAAAAAAAAAARE You Suggest That There's Anything Here That's Not 100% Fiction dance to honor their myther gods. Any HJ-er who gives his honest assessment of what appears the most LIKELY history surrounding this rabbi MUSSEN SIE be storm-troopered immediately by imputations of bad faith and crypto-christianity from the loyal shock troops of the myther establishment -- Sieg Heil.

Who knows? Maybe your own question is dictated by bad faith too? That, of course, makes MS2's and my responses to your trap(?) question doubly stupid. At the least, I have to laugh at your saying "I'm not asking anybody to prove their opinion is true". Are you fucking kidding me? ANY HJ-er who submits his best most educated guess without at least some semblance of an explanation as to why his scenario seems the more LIKELY is automatically maneuvering himself into a position of being accused of crypto-christianity by these unscrupulous mythers, conveniently accused of simply swallowing a crypto-christian line mindlessly, since he'll have -- by YOUR invite -- submitted an apparently mindless scenario that, effectively, lacks any footnoting. Of course, no one here can prove anything literally, since the professional historiography for ancient history deals in likelihoods, not certainties. But it would be flagrant disarming on our part to submit a plausible scenario, given the sparse documentation, without at least partially explaining the rationale(s). I don't choose to walk into that trap, thank you very much.

What a walk-in trap!

However, since I'm just stupid enough to pretend that this question is submitted in good faith, purely because the question itself is so interesting (no matter how much of a possible trap in this instance), here are my thoughts on what I deem most plausible -- with the ready acknowledgment that mythers here will pretend that what I restrict this historical synthesis to is somehow indistinguishable from the fundie model with all its bogus magic -- when this historical synthesis is fucking nothing like the fucking fundie model with all its magical woo and the unscrupulous mythers fucking well know that, thank you very fucking much.

Here goes:

Scholars take the three Synoptic Gospels, Mark, Matthew and Luke, and certain letters from Paul, as the earliest texts relating to his life. Written from a strongly devotional point of view, these all contrast with the somewhat more noncommittal Josephus, whose recollections include two references to a Christ: one that may reflect later tampering -- the form we have it in and a quote of it in Arabic diverge -- and another which refers to Jesus's brother James and which seems better confirmed by a less divergent quote elsewhere. In the three Synoptics, while Mark seems the earliest, there appear to be fragments of an even earlier sayings tradition, sometimes termed "Q", embedded in Matthew and Luke. Jesus's Sermon on the Mount/Plain seems largely drawn from the earliest "Q" material.

First we have the passages in Josephus. Additional so-called "Q" material from Luke (Luke is generally taken as the more faithful transmitter of this material) and quotes from Jesus in Paul's 1 Corinthians follow. Since this earliest extant quote material apparently reads very differently in its distinctive idiom in the Greek original from the surrounding material, that distinctive idiom is what appears to stamp these sayings as relatively early in the textual history.



Josephus recollections

Greek Version
Josephus, Antiquities 18.63, probably in a Christian redaction
Tr. I. H. Feldman, Loeb Classical Library, vol. 9, pp. 49ff.

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not cease. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life. For the prophets of God had prophesied these and myriads of other marvellous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still up to now, not disappeared.

Arabic Version
Arabic summary, presumably of Antiquities 18.63. From Agapios' Kitab al-'Unwan ("Book of the Title," 10th c.).
The translation belongs to Shlomo Pines. See also James H. Charlesworth, Jesus Within Judaism.

Similarly Josephus the Hebrew. For he says in the treatises that he has written on the governance of the Jews:
At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

Josephus, Antiquities 20.9.1

Since Ananus was that kind of person, and because he perceived an opportunity with Festus having died and Albinus not yet arrived, he called a meeting of the Sanhedrin and brought James, the brother of Jesus (who is called 'Messiah') along with some others. He accused them of transgressing the law, and handed them over for stoning.



So-called "Q" passages in Luke keyed to sequencing in Mark


3:7 Then said [John the Baptist] to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

3:16b I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone.
5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, It is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:
10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:
11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

15:4 [Jesus said,] What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

7:31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.

6:17 And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases.

6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.
43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

7:1 Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience of the people, he entered into Capernaum.
2 And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die.
3 And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant.

7:6 Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof:
7 Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed.
8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
10 And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick.

7:18 And the disciples of John shewed him of all these things.
19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
24 And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
25 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts.
26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet.
27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

11:14 And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered.
15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.
18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

11:33 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.
34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.

19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

13:18 Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it?
19 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and was a tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.
20 And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?
21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

10:2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh.
12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

11:16 And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.

11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

12:54 And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.
55 And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass.
56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?

12:58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison.
59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.

14:26 If any man come to me, and scorn not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

12:22 And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.
23 The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.
24 Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?
25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

14:34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

9:57 And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, [Lord,] We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
35 Behold, your house is left unto you: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

14:11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come.
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.

11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

14:16b A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.

14:21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

11:39b Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.
40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?
41 But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.
42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
43 Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets.
44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.

11:46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.
47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division.

12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.



Jesus quotes in Paul's 1 Corinthians


7:10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.

9:14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

11:23 The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.
25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.



Hey, you asked. Sorry now?

Stein

Mike S wrote:Dangerous words mentioning Marcionism, RealityRules, especially in connection with Paul: we’ll be here forever!

We already are.

Stein

MS2 wrote:

Moonwatcher wrote:Just for my own interests, with possibilities of what it and is not authentic flying back and forth and perhaps, for myself, wanting to get back to something more basic: what precisely constitutes a Historical Jesus?

By definition, all religions and, indeed, just about any human endeavor, have a history. How much of a basis in reality does Jesus need to have in order for there to have been a Historical Jesus?

We all agree the final product we see in the Gospels is a fantasy.

Does such a person have to have generally taught the sorts of things the Jesus of the mythology taught?

Does he have to have been crucified?

Does he have to just, in some vague and small way, have said and done something that just remotely resembles the mythology in the minutest way?

Between the extremes of "There was this guy who did 90% of the non-magical stuff and said most of the stuff attributed to him" and "There was not ever in the remotest way a historical person and the whole thing didn't even get made up at all at all until the 3rd century", there's a vast in-between where most opinion falls.

I just wonder where people fall on that scale. I'm not asking anybody to prove their opinion is true. I'm just asking where people think they fall on the scale.

My opinion is:
The best (and therefore most likely) of the various possible explanations for the origin of Christianity is it began with one man gathering a group of followers who, after he died, morphed into various groupings that had various beliefs and 'memories'* about the guy it all began with, and some of those beliefs and 'memories' can be found in the ancient writings that still exist. A small portion of the beliefs and 'memories' are reasonably likely to have their origins in things he said and did. The majority though are better explained by what happened later.

*the scare quotes are there for a reason!

Are you sure the HJ case may not possibly look too threateningly plausible around here with you back in town? Do we really want to risk that? Do you really want to jeopardize the myther monopoly we have going on here by your inserting a bit too much common sense? Too dangerous by far, don't you think?

Stein

Moonwatcher wrote:What are your thoughts as to why so many scholars, secular included, accept the earlier dates? Tradition? Linguistic evidence in choice of words, etc., matching earlier times?

Confirmation bias.

We’re going to have our work cut out for us, friend Stein!

But first, once more that useless Irenaeus age business!

How in the world could Irenaeus have introduced the Gospels into circulation and argue at the same time that Jesus was crucified as an old man about 20 years after the 15th (year?) of Tiberius, dejuror, when the gospels claim that he was crucified under Pilate, and not in 49 CE?

In lieu of innumerable disparities, why was it thought fit to distribute the synoptic gospels, all three that is, in the first place? - Discrepancies on such a scale as to render Irenaeus length-of-ministry argument but a minor hiccup.

And it seems to be only you who decided on crucifixion in 49 CE. As said before, in order to remain consistent with the gospels, and in light of Pilate’s removal in 36, one merely needs push back Jesus’ date of birth instead (assuming one bothers to insist pedantically on consistency with Irenaeus as well).

Where the actual crucifixion is concerned, the canonical gospels tend to follow the earlier Acts of Pilate in some particulars, in others it’s entirely ignored. The narratives were largely conjured with the aim of fulfilling diverse Jewish prophecies. The main objective was aimed at sustaining Jesus’ Messianic character, in accordance with the prophecies.

Irenaeus asserts that Jesus was baptized at thirty, with a subsequent ministry of twenty years. One may infer from the synoptic gospels that the ministry of Jesus only lasted one year but that’s all it is, an inference. The same for the Gospel of John: in that three or four Passovers are mentioned, the ministry must have lasted at least that many years, but there’s scant to indicate that it couldn't have been longer.


Writings of Tertullian are NOT in full agreement with those of Irenaeus?

I only asserted that Tertullian agreed with Irenaeus’ idea that every church ought to agree with that of Rome.

Tertullian writings do not agree that Jesus was crucified when he was about to be fifty years old?

Why should they! I doubt he even referred to it!

Moonwatcher wrote:Just for my own interests, with possibilities of what it and is not authentic flying back and forth and perhaps, for myself, wanting to get back to something more basic: what precisely constitutes a Historical Jesus?

By definition, all religions and, indeed, just about any human endeavor, have a history. How much of a basis in reality does Jesus need to have in order for there to have been a Historical Jesus?

We all agree the final product we see in the Gospels is a fantasy.

Does such a person have to have generally taught the sorts of things the Jesus of the mythology taught?

Does he have to have been crucified?

Does he have to just, in some vague and small way, have said and done something that just remotely resembles the mythology in the minutest way?

Between the extremes of "There was this guy who did 90% of the non-magical stuff and said most of the stuff attributed to him" and "There was not ever in the remotest way a historical person and the whole thing didn't even get made up at all at all until the 3rd century", there's a vast in-between where most opinion falls.

I just wonder where people fall on that scale. I'm not asking anybody to prove their opinion is true. I'm just asking where people think they fall on the scale.

I was asking the same question a thousand or so pages ago.

Clearly we have about zero idea about anything the fellow ever did or said. In my opinion, of course. For me it's inadequate to simply draw a line through the miracles and accept anything left over that's possible as being factual, or even probable.

Here's Carrier's definition:

1. An actual man at some point named Jesus acquired followers in life who continued as an identifiable movement after his death.

2. This is the same Jesus who was claimed by some of his followers to have been executed by the Jewish or Roman authorities.

3. This is the same Jesus some of whose followers soon began worshiping as a living god (or demigod).

This has some good features - one of which is that it is not a requirement that the actual man who inspires the movement needs to have been executed, only that this is something claimed by members of the movement.

Just as it isn't required that he really rise from the dead, that is only a claim.

Me, I'm not sure I would even require that the fellow be named Jesus.

So I set the bar pretty low for what would be required for an "historical Jesus'.

Mike S wrote:

Moonwatcher wrote:
Interesting. I did a check on Wikipedia of the various dates attributed by scholars to the four gospels and the range was as follows:

Mark: c. 68–73,[33] c. 65–70.[34]
Matthew: c. 70–100,[33] c. 80–85.[34]
Luke: c. 80–100, with most arguing for somewhere around 85,[33] c. 80–85.[34]
John: c. 90–100,[34] c. 90–110,[35] The majority view is that it was written in stages, so there was no one date of composition.

Obviously, the earliest dates are literalist believer dates. For instance, anything dated before AD 70 is preposterous.

That there are no mentions of these gospels prior to 175 is a significant piece of evidence and, in your case, I have a suspicion the opinion comes from someone not driven by agenda.

What are your thoughts as to why so many scholars, secular included, accept the earlier dates? Tradition? Linguistic evidence in choice of words, etc., matching earlier times?

The explanation for the various gospels and the inclusion of Paul who presents a different take on Jesus may well be explained by placating hugely different views of what the religion was.

What are my thoughts as to why so many scholars accept the early dates? A question that’s repeatedly crossed my mind for some years now!

I’d love to put the question directly to Doherty, Erhman or Carrier: “Without a shred of supporting evidence - in fact with all of the available evidence pointing to a much later date, and with no mention by any writer whatsoever, friendly or foe, prior to say 175 AD - why do you still assert that the canonical gospels were produced some time in the first century, or shortly thereafter? On what exactly do you base such a conclusion?”

In fact, there’s scarcely any doubt that the four gospels were introduced into general circulation through the agency of Irenaeus in Gaul, Clement in Alexandria, and Tertullian in Northern Africa, and who concurrently laid the foundations for eventual Roman Catholic Supremacy.

In his third book against Heresies, written around 190 AD or so, Irenaeus already saw fit to express the opinion that every church ought to agree with the Church of Rome; Tertullian was in full agreement therewith, those of Clement were somewhat less explicit.

I think that most of the mainstream authors do not wish to be seen as too extreme, too far out of step with either their colleagues or the work of the majority of preceding scholars, other than perhaps having already committed themselves to the orthodox dates/pattern previously.

Imagine yourself as one of the mentioned writers: you’ve published various books and given a number of lectures, both predicated on the generally-accepted gospel dates (and you may even have a website narrating Christianity’s development along the same lines). I doubt you’d be too impressed if someone then came along and turned the whole apple-cart upside down!


Dangerous words mentioning Marcionism, RealityRules, especially in connection with Paul: we’ll be here forever!

Yes, I think this bolded bit has a lot to do with how a 'consensus' about the dates are arrived at. There is a certain amount of inertia involved in changing the long-established assumptions. Especially when there's so much culturally, politically, financially, and emotionally invested in maintaining the status quo.

Mike S wrote:

MS2 wrote:
My opinion is:
The best (and therefore most likely) of the various possible explanations for the origin of Christianity is it began with one man gathering a group of followers who, after he died, morphed into various groupings that had various beliefs and 'memories'* about the guy it all began with, and some of those beliefs and 'memories' can be found in the ancient writings that still exist. A small portion of the beliefs and 'memories' are reasonably likely to have their origins in things he said and did. The majority though are better explained by what happened later.

I’ve always been more interested in how Christianity was (haphazardly?) created than in its central figure Jesus, but, here’s a thought, MS2 – what if Christianity didn’t start in one location with one man labeled Jesus at all?

What if we’re looking at different groups in different places, mainly in the east (with mystery religions galore), movements which to varying degrees espoused different teachings and traditions, but which all eventually contributed to, and formed part of early Christianity. It would certainly go a long way toward explaining the well nigh irreconcilably conflicting nature of much of the early writings.

This seems to best explain the evidence we have - a welter of mutually contradictory 'traditions' about saviors that seem to crop up everywhere except in Judea.

These are later 'harmonized' by adding to the texts, subtracting from the texts, and composing new ones like 'Acts' to fill in the gaping holes.

Stein wrote:

Moonwatcher wrote:Just for my own interests, with possibilities of what it and is not authentic flying back and forth and perhaps, for myself, wanting to get back to something more basic: what precisely constitutes a Historical Jesus?

By definition, all religions and, indeed, just about any human endeavor, have a history. How much of a basis in reality does Jesus need to have in order for there to have been a Historical Jesus?

We all agree the final product we see in the Gospels is a fantasy.

Does such a person have to have generally taught the sorts of things the Jesus of the mythology taught?

Does he have to have been crucified?

Does he have to just, in some vague and small way, have said and done something that just remotely resembles the mythology in the minutest way?

Between the extremes of "There was this guy who did 90% of the non-magical stuff and said most of the stuff attributed to him" and "There was not ever in the remotest way a historical person and the whole thing didn't even get made up at all at all until the 3rd century", there's a vast in-between where most opinion falls.

I just wonder where people fall on that scale. I'm not asking anybody to prove their opinion is true. I'm just asking where people think they fall on the scale.

This is a dangerous question, Moonwatcher, since once any HJ-er like myself or MS2 gives our honest assessment based on the latest secular scholarship, every dedicated snarker MJ-er will feel honor bound to show their myther loyalty by knee-jerking a salaaming How DAAAAAAAAAAAAAARE You Suggest That There's Anything Here That's Not 100% Fiction dance to honor their myther gods. Any HJ-er who gives his honest assessment of what appears the most LIKELY history surrounding this rabbi MUSSEN SIE be storm-troopered immediately by imputations of bad faith and crypto-christianity from the loyal shock troops of the myther establishment -- Sieg Heil.

Who knows? Maybe your own question is dictated by bad faith too? That, of course, makes MS2's and my responses to your trap(?) question doubly stupid. At the least, I have to laugh at your saying "I'm not asking anybody to prove their opinion is true". Are you fucking kidding me? ANY HJ-er who submits his best most educated guess without at least some semblance of an explanation as to why his scenario seems the more LIKELY is automatically maneuvering himself into a position of being accused of crypto-christianity by these unscrupulous mythers, conveniently accused of simply swallowing a crypto-christian line mindlessly, since he'll have -- by YOUR invite -- submitted an apparently mindless scenario that, effectively, lacks any footnoting. Of course, no one here can prove anything literally, since the professional historiography for ancient history deals in likelihoods, not certainties. But it would be flagrant disarming on our part to submit a plausible scenario, given the sparse documentation, without at least partially explaining the rationale(s). I don't choose to walk into that trap, thank you very much.

What a walk-in trap!

However, since I'm just stupid enough to pretend that this question is submitted in good faith, purely because the question itself is so interesting (no matter how much of a possible trap in this instance), here are my thoughts on what I deem most plausible -- with the ready acknowledgment that mythers here will pretend that what I restrict this historical synthesis to is somehow indistinguishable from the fundie model with all its bogus magic -- when this historical synthesis is fucking nothing like the fucking fundie model with all its magical woo and the unscrupulous mythers fucking well know that, thank you very fucking much.

Here goes:

Scholars take the three Synoptic Gospels, Mark, Matthew and Luke, and certain letters from Paul, as the earliest texts relating to his life. Written from a strongly devotional point of view, these all contrast with the somewhat more noncommittal Josephus, whose recollections include two references to a Christ: one that may reflect later tampering -- the form we have it in and a quote of it in Arabic diverge -- and another which refers to Jesus's brother James and which seems better confirmed by a less divergent quote elsewhere. In the three Synoptics, while Mark seems the earliest, there appear to be fragments of an even earlier sayings tradition, sometimes termed "Q", embedded in Matthew and Luke. Jesus's Sermon on the Mount/Plain seems largely drawn from the earliest "Q" material.

First we have the passages in Josephus. Additional so-called "Q" material from Luke (Luke is generally taken as the more faithful transmitter of this material) and quotes from Jesus in Paul's 1 Corinthians follow. Since this earliest extant quote material apparently reads very differently in its distinctive idiom in the Greek original from the surrounding material, that distinctive idiom is what appears to stamp these sayings as relatively early in the textual history.



Josephus recollections

Greek Version
Josephus, Antiquities 18.63, probably in a Christian redaction
Tr. I. H. Feldman, Loeb Classical Library, vol. 9, pp. 49ff.

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not cease. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life. For the prophets of God had prophesied these and myriads of other marvellous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still up to now, not disappeared.

Arabic Version
Arabic summary, presumably of Antiquities 18.63. From Agapios' Kitab al-'Unwan ("Book of the Title," 10th c.).
The translation belongs to Shlomo Pines. See also James H. Charlesworth, Jesus Within Judaism.

Similarly Josephus the Hebrew. For he says in the treatises that he has written on the governance of the Jews:
At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

Josephus, Antiquities 20.9.1

Since Ananus was that kind of person, and because he perceived an opportunity with Festus having died and Albinus not yet arrived, he called a meeting of the Sanhedrin and brought James, the brother of Jesus (who is called 'Messiah') along with some others. He accused them of transgressing the law, and handed them over for stoning.



So-called "Q" passages in Luke keyed to sequencing in Mark


3:7 Then said [John the Baptist] to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

3:16b I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone.
5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, It is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:
10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:
11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

15:4 [Jesus said,] What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

7:31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.

6:17 And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases.

6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.
43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

7:1 Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience of the people, he entered into Capernaum.
2 And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die.
3 And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant.

7:6 Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof:
7 Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed.
8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
10 And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick.

7:18 And the disciples of John shewed him of all these things.
19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
24 And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
25 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts.
26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet.
27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

11:14 And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered.
15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.
18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

11:33 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.
34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.

19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

13:18 Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it?
19 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and was a tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.
20 And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?
21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

10:2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh.
12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

11:16 And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.

11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

12:54 And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.
55 And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass.
56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?

12:58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison.
59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.

14:26 If any man come to me, and scorn not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

12:22 And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.
23 The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.
24 Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?
25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

14:34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

9:57 And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, [Lord,] We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
35 Behold, your house is left unto you: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

14:11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come.
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.

11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

14:16b A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.

14:21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

11:39b Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.
40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?
41 But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.
42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
43 Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets.
44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.

11:46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.
47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division.

12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.



Jesus quotes in Paul's 1 Corinthians


7:10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.

9:14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

11:23 The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.
25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.



Hey, you asked. Sorry now?

Stein

No. Not sorry at all. I also have lurked enough recently to get that you've long since felt that the HJers have generally abandoned the thread.

My request that proof was not required was an acknowledgement that these arguments have been hashed and rehashed for 2000+ pages already so a statement of where people at at in their opinions doesn't need to rehash everything, just say, "Based on the evidence that exists..."

The Josephus passage in interesting because the Arabic version implies more a quality of "This is what I am reporting they say happened" as opposed to the Greek that says, "This is what happened."

I'm surprised you did not mention Tacitus (or did I miss it?).

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind".

There is difficult to dismiss as a forgery for reasons that have been rehashed endlessly.

If it is a forgery, why state that these people were hated for their abominations? Maybe say they were falsely hated for assumed abominations. But it does not say that. It says they are hated for their abominations that they committed, statement of fact.

Then, reference to an unnamed something but clearly a superstition, not reality. But it became a popular "superstition".

And these people, these followers of this Christus [insert dejuror saying it was Chrestus- case closed] are guilty of hatred of all mankind.

Oh yeah, this is definitely a Christian forgery written by a guy who loves Christianity and believes it all.

I realize one explanation is that it was disguised as anti-Christian in order to provide evidence that this historical person existed. Of course, the problem is that it seems written to an audience both unfamiliar with the events and in a time when nobody was questioning that the guy at least existed minus the "popular superstitions" about him.

While the earliest dates of the four gospels is a different matter, I find the claim of no first century existence of Christianity to be not only swimming against the tide but doing so intentionally against plausibility.

proudfootz wrote:

Moonwatcher wrote:Just for my own interests, with possibilities of what it and is not authentic flying back and forth and perhaps, for myself, wanting to get back to something more basic: what precisely constitutes a Historical Jesus?

By definition, all religions and, indeed, just about any human endeavor, have a history. How much of a basis in reality does Jesus need to have in order for there to have been a Historical Jesus?

We all agree the final product we see in the Gospels is a fantasy.

Does such a person have to have generally taught the sorts of things the Jesus of the mythology taught?

Does he have to have been crucified?

Does he have to just, in some vague and small way, have said and done something that just remotely resembles the mythology in the minutest way?

Between the extremes of "There was this guy who did 90% of the non-magical stuff and said most of the stuff attributed to him" and "There was not ever in the remotest way a historical person and the whole thing didn't even get made up at all at all until the 3rd century", there's a vast in-between where most opinion falls.

I just wonder where people fall on that scale. I'm not asking anybody to prove their opinion is true. I'm just asking where people think they fall on the scale.

I was asking the same question a thousand or so pages ago.

Clearly we have about zero idea about anything the fellow ever did or said. In my opinion, of course. For me it's inadequate to simply draw a line through the miracles and accept anything left over that's possible as being factual, or even probable.

Here's Carrier's definition:

1. An actual man at some point named Jesus acquired followers in life who continued as an identifiable movement after his death.

2. This is the same Jesus who was claimed by some of his followers to have been executed by the Jewish or Roman authorities.

3. This is the same Jesus some of whose followers soon began worshiping as a living god (or demigod).

This has some good features - one of which is that it is not a requirement that the actual man who inspires the movement needs to have been executed, only that this is something claimed by members of the movement.

Just as it isn't required that he really rise from the dead, that is only a claim.

Me, I'm not sure I would even require that the fellow be named Jesus.

So I set the bar pretty low for what would be required for an "historical Jesus'.

I have no disagreement with any of this.

I have no "requirement" that the person did every non-magical thing or even most of them. For a HJ to have existed, it need merely be a real person who was partly the basis for the religion while there were clearly many other things that were involved. That he was named Jesus is just about impossible as I understand it as that's an extrapolation into later languages.

I think that has a lot to do with it, that there is no agreed upon standard as to what constitutes a Historical Jesus. My bar is also pretty low. If a real person who actually lived is in there anywhere, I think of that as a HJ. It may well be that many people count as MJ what others would call HJ.

Moonwatcher wrote:

proudfootz wrote:

Moonwatcher wrote:Just for my own interests, with possibilities of what it and is not authentic flying back and forth and perhaps, for myself, wanting to get back to something more basic: what precisely constitutes a Historical Jesus?

By definition, all religions and, indeed, just about any human endeavor, have a history. How much of a basis in reality does Jesus need to have in order for there to have been a Historical Jesus?

We all agree the final product we see in the Gospels is a fantasy.

Does such a person have to have generally taught the sorts of things the Jesus of the mythology taught?

Does he have to have been crucified?

Does he have to just, in some vague and small way, have said and done something that just remotely resembles the mythology in the minutest way?

Between the extremes of "There was this guy who did 90% of the non-magical stuff and said most of the stuff attributed to him" and "There was not ever in the remotest way a historical person and the whole thing didn't even get made up at all at all until the 3rd century", there's a vast in-between where most opinion falls.

I just wonder where people fall on that scale. I'm not asking anybody to prove their opinion is true. I'm just asking where people think they fall on the scale.

I was asking the same question a thousand or so pages ago.

Clearly we have about zero idea about anything the fellow ever did or said. In my opinion, of course. For me it's inadequate to simply draw a line through the miracles and accept anything left over that's possible as being factual, or even probable.

Here's Carrier's definition:

1. An actual man at some point named Jesus acquired followers in life who continued as an identifiable movement after his death.

2. This is the same Jesus who was claimed by some of his followers to have been executed by the Jewish or Roman authorities.

3. This is the same Jesus some of whose followers soon began worshiping as a living god (or demigod).

This has some good features - one of which is that it is not a requirement that the actual man who inspires the movement needs to have been executed, only that this is something claimed by members of the movement.

Just as it isn't required that he really rise from the dead, that is only a claim.

Me, I'm not sure I would even require that the fellow be named Jesus.

So I set the bar pretty low for what would be required for an "historical Jesus'.

I have no disagreement with any of this.

I have no "requirement" that the person did every non-magical thing or even most of them. For a HJ to have existed, it need merely be a real person who was partly the basis for the religion while there were clearly many other things that were involved. That he was named Jesus is just about impossible as I understand it as that's an extrapolation into later languages.

I think that has a lot to do with it, that there is no agreed upon standard as to what constitutes a Historical Jesus. My bar is also pretty low. If a real person who actually lived is in there anywhere, I think of that as a HJ. It may well be that many people count as MJ what others would call HJ.

Yes, I think that it is convenient not to define what constitutes an HJ as it's easier to be vague.

There is a bit of gray area where I think MJ shades off into HJ (or is it the other way around?).

For instance, if the literary figure is a pastiche of several real people that kind of straddles the line.

proudfootz wrote:

Moonwatcher wrote:

proudfootz wrote:

Moonwatcher wrote:Just for my own interests, with possibilities of what it and is not authentic flying back and forth and perhaps, for myself, wanting to get back to something more basic: what precisely constitutes a Historical Jesus?

By definition, all religions and, indeed, just about any human endeavor, have a history. How much of a basis in reality does Jesus need to have in order for there to have been a Historical Jesus?

We all agree the final product we see in the Gospels is a fantasy.

Does such a person have to have generally taught the sorts of things the Jesus of the mythology taught?

Does he have to have been crucified?

Does he have to just, in some vague and small way, have said and done something that just remotely resembles the mythology in the minutest way?

Between the extremes of "There was this guy who did 90% of the non-magical stuff and said most of the stuff attributed to him" and "There was not ever in the remotest way a historical person and the whole thing didn't even get made up at all at all until the 3rd century", there's a vast in-between where most opinion falls.

I just wonder where people fall on that scale. I'm not asking anybody to prove their opinion is true. I'm just asking where people think they fall on the scale.

I was asking the same question a thousand or so pages ago.

Clearly we have about zero idea about anything the fellow ever did or said. In my opinion, of course. For me it's inadequate to simply draw a line through the miracles and accept anything left over that's possible as being factual, or even probable.

Here's Carrier's definition:

1. An actual man at some point named Jesus acquired followers in life who continued as an identifiable movement after his death.

2. This is the same Jesus who was claimed by some of his followers to have been executed by the Jewish or Roman authorities.

3. This is the same Jesus some of whose followers soon began worshiping as a living god (or demigod).

This has some good features - one of which is that it is not a requirement that the actual man who inspires the movement needs to have been executed, only that this is something claimed by members of the movement.

Just as it isn't required that he really rise from the dead, that is only a claim.

Me, I'm not sure I would even require that the fellow be named Jesus.

So I set the bar pretty low for what would be required for an "historical Jesus'.

I have no disagreement with any of this.

I have no "requirement" that the person did every non-magical thing or even most of them. For a HJ to have existed, it need merely be a real person who was partly the basis for the religion while there were clearly many other things that were involved. That he was named Jesus is just about impossible as I understand it as that's an extrapolation into later languages.

I think that has a lot to do with it, that there is no agreed upon standard as to what constitutes a Historical Jesus. My bar is also pretty low. If a real person who actually lived is in there anywhere, I think of that as a HJ. It may well be that many people count as MJ what others would call HJ.

Yes, I think that it is convenient not to define what constitutes an HJ as it's easier to be vague.

There is a bit of gray area where I think MJ shades off into HJ (or is it the other way around?).

For instance, if the literary figure is a pastiche of several real people that kind of straddles the line.

It probably does. Way back in the thread (maybe 500 or a thousand pages ago), the idea of multiple people as a basis was brought up and I seem to recall there were those who thought of that as MJ while others thought that would constitute HJ.

Carrier's definition seems reasonable.

If this person existed and there was enough of a movement to go anywhere, he would have to have followers.

Somewhere along the way, the idea of the execution sprang up. Was it really what happened? Does it matter? The rumor sprang up. If he existed, it would most likely come from his followers.

The third one I question a little. I don't think it has to be the followers who knew him personally or saw him because there were some good arguments presented that the idea of Jesus as "living deity" is something that got added into the mix later coming in from religious influences other than Judaism. It's believable that "messiah" was something they saw him as. But that's very different from perceiving him as equal to and/ or the same thing as their god.

Moonwatcher wrote:

MS2 wrote:

Moonwatcher wrote:Just for my own interests, with possibilities of what it and is not authentic flying back and forth and perhaps, for myself, wanting to get back to something more basic: what precisely constitutes a Historical Jesus?

By definition, all religions and, indeed, just about any human endeavor, have a history. How much of a basis in reality does Jesus need to have in order for there to have been a Historical Jesus?

We all agree the final product we see in the Gospels is a fantasy.

Does such a person have to have generally taught the sorts of things the Jesus of the mythology taught?

Does he have to have been crucified?

Does he have to just, in some vague and small way, have said and done something that just remotely resembles the mythology in the minutest way?

Between the extremes of "There was this guy who did 90% of the non-magical stuff and said most of the stuff attributed to him" and "There was not ever in the remotest way a historical person and the whole thing didn't even get made up at all at all until the 3rd century", there's a vast in-between where most opinion falls.

I just wonder where people fall on that scale. I'm not asking anybody to prove their opinion is true. I'm just asking where people think they fall on the scale.

My opinion is:
The best (and therefore most likely) of the various possible explanations for the origin of Christianity is it began with one man gathering a group of followers who, after he died, morphed into various groupings that had various beliefs and 'memories'* about the guy it all began with, and some of those beliefs and 'memories' can be found in the ancient writings that still exist. A small portion of the beliefs and 'memories' are reasonably likely to have their origins in things he said and did. The majority though are better explained by what happened later.

*the scare quotes are there for a reason!

Thanks for answering.

Do you have any thoughts about what this person, IF he existed (and I do mean IF) gathered followers to do?

If he existed I think he was a Jew gathering other Jews around him in order to promote what he saw as the 'true judaism'. Not unlike what countless other charismatic, self-professed religious reformers have done countless times throughout history.

Mike S wrote:

MS2 wrote:
My opinion is:
The best (and therefore most likely) of the various possible explanations for the origin of Christianity is it began with one man gathering a group of followers who, after he died, morphed into various groupings that had various beliefs and 'memories'* about the guy it all began with, and some of those beliefs and 'memories' can be found in the ancient writings that still exist. A small portion of the beliefs and 'memories' are reasonably likely to have their origins in things he said and did. The majority though are better explained by what happened later.

I’ve always been more interested in how Christianity was (haphazardly?) created than in its central figure Jesus, but, here’s a thought, MS2 – what if Christianity didn’t start in one location with one man labeled Jesus at all?

What if we’re looking at different groups in different places, mainly in the east (with mystery religions galore), movements which to varying degrees espoused different teachings and traditions, but which all eventually contributed to, and formed part of early Christianity. It would certainly go a long way toward explaining the well nigh irreconcilably conflicting nature of much of the early writings.

I think my version better explains two key features of the early writings: 1. the Jewish elements in them; 2. the view throughout that a figure called Jesus is extremely important (albeit important in different ways).
On the other hand, I don't think my version has much difficulty explaining what you refer to as the conflicting nature of much of the early writings, as this can be ascribed to the underlying beliefs held by the different groups which they combined with their new allegiance to Jesus.

Mike S wrote:We’re going to have our work cut out for us, friend Stein!

But first, once more that useless Irenaeus age business!



How in the world could Irenaeus have introduced the Gospels into circulation and argue at the same time that Jesus was crucified as an old man about 20 years after the 15th (year?) of Tiberius, dejuror, when the gospels claim that he was crucified under Pilate, and not in 49 CE?

In lieu of innumerable disparities, why was it thought fit to distribute the synoptic gospels, all three that is, in the first place? - Discrepancies on such a scale as to render Irenaeus length-of-ministry argument but a minor hiccup.

Your statement is most absurd. The argument in "Against Heresies" that Jesus was ALIVE up to 20 years AFTER the 15th year of Tiberius is a major historical discrepancy especially when it is claimed that Irenaeus was a Presbyter and Bishop of the CHURCH.


In the Gospels, Jesus was dead and BURIED during the time of Pilate who delivered the DEAD body to Joseph of Arimathea.

Mark 15.

43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.......... he gave the body to Joseph..

Matthew 27:58

He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.

Luke 23

52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre...

John 19:

38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.

IN ALL the FOUR Gospels Jesus is DEAD and BURIED in the time of Pilate.

PILATE delivered the DEAD BODY of Jesus to Joseph in ALL FOUR GOSPELS.

It is clear that the author of "Against Heresies" 2.22 could NOT have the same Gospels

"Against Heresies" attributed to Irenaeus

Now, that the first stage of early life embraces thirty years, and that this extends onwards to the fortieth year, every one will admit; but from the fortieth and fiftieth year a man begins to decline towards old age, which our Lord possessed while He still fulfilled the office of a Teacher, even as the Gospel and all the elders testify....

The Gospel of the Church of Lyons and the Elders did STATE or TESTIFY that Jesus was dead when he was about to be FIFTY years old.

"Against Heresies" is supposed to be a PUBLICLY documented argument AGAINST the HERETICS who claimed Jesus died when he was 30 years old.

"Against Heresies" has made the FOUR Gospels the products of Heretics.

There is NO twenty year teaching ministry of Jesus after the time of Pilate in the ENTIRE NT.

"Against Heresies" DESTROYS the NT and the Pauline Corpus by placing the crucifixion of Jesus when he was about to be 50 years.

Mike S wrote:Writings of Tertullian are NOT in full agreement with those of Irenaeus?

I only asserted that Tertullian agreed with Irenaeus’ idea that every church ought to agree with that of Rome.

I have only exposed your consistent fallacious claims. You knew in advance of posting that the writings of Tertullian were NOT in full agreement with those attributed to Irenaeus.

Mike S wrote:Tertullian writings do not agree that Jesus was crucified when he was about to be fifty years old?

Why should they! I doubt he even referred to it!

The writings attributed to Tertullian specifically place the death of Jesus in the time of Pontius Pilate.

'The Apology' attributed to Tertullian

But the Jews were so exasperated by His teaching, by which their rulers and chiefs were convicted of the truth, chiefly because so many turned aside to Him, that at last ;they brought Him before Pontius Pilate, at that time Roman governor of Syria; and, by the violence of their outcries against Him, extorted a sentence giving Him up to them to be crucified. He Himself had predicted this.....

"Against Heresies" DESTROYS ALL Christian writings of antiquity [including Hegesippus] if they claim Jesus was about 30 years old when he was dead.

MS2 wrote:
I think my version better explains two key features of the early writings: 1. the Jewish elements in them; 2. the view throughout that a figure called Jesus is extremely important (albeit important in different ways).
On the other hand, I don't think my version has much difficulty explaining what you refer to as the conflicting nature of much of the early writings, as this can be ascribed to the underlying beliefs held by the different groups which they combined with their new allegiance to Jesus.

The Jesus character is REJECTED by the Jews in the very NT stories.

The Jesus character represents BLASPHEMY in the NT.

The Jesus story reflects elements that are NOT Jewish at all.

1. The worship of a man as a God.

2. The sacrifice of a Man for the Remission of Sins.

3. The blatant disregard for the Laws of Moses.

4. The use of already fulfilled prophecies in Hebrew Scripture to fabricate the acts of Jesus.

The NT Jesus story is blatantly a product of Non-Jews.

The manipulation and massacre of Hebrew Scripture to invent Jesus of Nazareth is extremely obvious.

In the NT, the Jesus character HATED the Jews and called them a generation of VIPERS and that the Father of Jews was the DEVIL a LIAR and MURDERER.

Matthew 23:33

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

John 8:44

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The Jesus character REPRESENTS Non-Jews.

The Jesus story could not have or most likely was not fabricated by Jews.

The Jesus character did not say ONE thing AGAINST the ROMAN Government or Emperors who were worshiped as Gods.

The Jesus story is a product of anti-Jewish propaganda from NON-JEWS.

Stein wrote:Jesus quotes in Paul's 1 Corinthians


7:10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.

9:14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

11:23 The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.
25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.



Hey, you asked. Sorry now?

Stein, are you serious?

The supposed revelations of Paul are the actual words of YOUR Jesus?

The supposed Jesus was ALREADY dead when 'Paul' got revelations so your statement is by far the most absurd I have seen.

You have only confirmed the bankruptcy of your HJ argument.

Moonwatcher wrote:
I'm surprised you did not mention Tacitus (or did I miss it?).

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind".

There is difficult to dismiss as a forgery for reasons that have been rehashed endlessly.

If it is a forgery, why state that these people were hated for their abominations? Maybe say they were falsely hated for assumed abominations. But it does not say that. It says they are hated for their abominations that they committed, statement of fact.

Then, reference to an unnamed something but clearly a superstition, not reality. But it became a popular "superstition".

And these people, these followers of this Christus [insert dejuror saying it was Chrestus- case closed] are guilty of hatred of all mankind.

Oh yeah, this is definitely a Christian forgery written by a guy who loves Christianity and believes it all.

I realize one explanation is that it was disguised as anti-Christian in order to provide evidence that this historical person existed. Of course, the problem is that it seems written to an audience both unfamiliar with the events and in a time when nobody was questioning that the guy at least existed minus the "popular superstitions" about him.

Home run, Moonwatcher. Tacitus is as central as Antiqs. XX! I must have left it out purely because I was in an insensate rage and not thinking.

In addition, I find it peculiarly ironic that the blas-e l'on dit from some ignorant mythers is that whether or not he was historically real, why we surely know even less about anything he said than we do about anything he did, right?

W R O N G !!!

In fact, the analysis of various textual strata shews that some of the sayings material goes way further back than any of the narrative stuff, including most of GMark. That's why Wells, an erstwhile myther, decided there was some sort of historical figure behind it all, after all. It was the parallel sayings that proved more persuasive than the narrative junk.

Your timely reminder of the Tacitus Annals underscores the greater paucity of narrative bio that we have, compared to all the parallel sayings. In fact, it helps remind me of the other early stratum that I overlooked in my previous posting, alongside Annals: the authentic Paulines.

Laid end to end, the Arabic version of Antiqs. 18, Antiqs. XX, Annals 15 and the biographical references in the authentic Paulines* are not just the only reliable stuff we really have biographically; they also come to far less text than the parallel sayings. That's why the Q material in the Synoptics are where we get the most that has survived of the basic guts of the guy. This stuff is not only older; it is also more extensive.

He's important to history not because of fanciful woo that his ignorant followers foisted on him posthumously; he's important because of the more colloquial and Aramaically tinged reflections that have survived in the teeth of all the magic woo. Those reflections on what it means to be a complete human being to everyone around one will resonate far more in the coming centuries than the later narrative woo. In fact, it will also resonate more than some of his own metaphysical speculations like Luke 11:17, etc. The latter are not unique to him anyway and therefore less important to the history of the time.

But the reflections on how we treat others, like Luke 6:35 ff. and a few others, with unprecedented stuff like "Love your enemies", are of real historic importance and textual integrity, and remain unique to Jesus the rabbi down through the centuries. Sure, Buddha and others had already said that one should never return hate with hate, yup, but these Q sayings are the first time that anyone explicitly says that one should pro-actively love one's enemies.

The reason why this stuff will resonate more in coming centuries than the foisted magic junk is because humanity will be in the grip of the most dire climate change that we've had in many millennia, and we will have to adapt to it by working together or perish. Suddenly, the pragmatic will be fused with the idealistic, and all that the Grahams and the McCains and the Putins and the Assads and the Cruz's and the Khameneis and the Baghdadis and the Cheneys and the rest of the creeps who get their rocks off at the thought of war will be able to do is gnash their teeth in fury at the cooperation that will emerge in spite of their bloodlust, a cooperation emerging solely because normal people don't relish the thought of being killed by snuffed out oxygen or continual flooding. Practical survival will dictate a mode of cooperation that will resemble the earliest Q material from Jesus the rabbi far more than the sectarian bullshit of Jesus's posthumous handlers.

Now, cue the snarkers and their fucking violin emoticons.

Mind you, I'm not saying it's a foregone conclusion that the bloodlusters will be put out of countenance. It's still possible that they will have their way, and so we'll go the way of the planet Venus in sheer idiocy and ostrich-headed fuckery. But we have a chance of stemming such an ending if we don't treat the written reflections of the Gandhis, the MLKs, the Jesuses, the Gotamas, the Socrateses, the Confuciuses, the Urukaginas, the Ben Franklins, the Mandelas and the Eleanor Roosevelts in the same fucking way that ISIS has treated the treasures of Palmyra, or that mythers treat the hard-won victories of modern professional historians who've routinely bucked the thought-control jackboots of organized religion during the past century, or that fundies treat the painstaking work of scientists tracing evolutionary data.

Stein

* First Thessalonians (ca. 51 AD)
Philippians (ca. 52–54 AD)
Philemon (ca. 52–54 AD)
First Corinthians (ca. 53–54 AD)
Galatians (ca. 55 AD)
Second Corinthians (ca. 55–56 AD)
Romans (ca. 55–58 AD)

Galatians 4:4
born of a woman, born under law
Romans 1:3
who as to his human nature was a descendant of David
Galatians 1:19
I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother.
1 Corinthians 9:5
Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas?

Phillipians 2:7
but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death — even death on a cross!
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1 Thessalonians 2:15
who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out.
1 Corinthians 15:3
that he was buried

1 Corinthians 7:10
To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.
1 Corinthians 9:14
In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

Galatians 1:18
Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days.
1 Corinthians 9:5
Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas?

1 Corinthians 11:23
The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."
25
In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the
new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in
remembrance of me."