Why not pray for self improvement? Placebos work regardless.

Keep It Real · **#21** by **Keep It Real** » Feb 12, 2016 7:58 pm

Thommo wrote:Seriously though, you may as well rearrange your furniture as pray, it can have an equally beneficial effect. Just remember that the effect tails off over time, so you'll need to move it back again in a few weeks for further benefits to fortitude.

One still need maintain the fiction in the mind that the remedy will be effective. A pill is substantive, as is god. Moving the furniture around is not.

Thomas Eshuis · **#22** by **Thomas Eshuis** » Feb 12, 2016 8:01 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Because placebos don't rely on the premise that you're powerless.

Er, yes they do.

Nope.

Most placebos are sold as helping your body cure itself, not as divine intervention required by the powerless.

Keep It Real · **#23** by **Keep It Real** » Feb 12, 2016 8:01 pm

Weaver wrote:One primary reason not to rely upon placebo effect - from any source, whether it's pseudoscience, pseudomedicine, or religion - is that a large portion of "placebo effect" is simply measurement error and various uncontrolled biases. It isn't any sort of effect whatsoever, just random chance appearing as a measurable statistic or bias on the part of the "patient" or "researcher."

I don't know about anyone else, but I"m not going to try to shape my well-being around statistical errors.

Doesn't look like statistical error to me eg. http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/placebos-work-even-when-you-know-10-12-23/

ScholasticSpastic · **#24** by **ScholasticSpastic** » Feb 12, 2016 8:02 pm

Keep It Real wrote:A pill is substantive, as is god. Moving the furniture around is not.

Why not just get bigger furniture, then? :dunno:

Also: God is substantive. :tehe:

I like the inherent contradiction. :thumbup:

Keep It Real · **#25** by **Keep It Real** » Feb 12, 2016 8:03 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Because placebos don't rely on the premise that you're powerless.

Er, yes they do.

Nope.

Most placebos are sold as helping your body cure itself, not as divine intervention required by the powerless.

Powerless without the placebo, just as you might be powerless without god.

ScholasticSpastic · **#26** by **ScholasticSpastic** » Feb 12, 2016 8:05 pm

What was that study again? The one funded by that religious group that found that people who knew people were praying for them fared worst than the control group?

We call that a nocebo, not a placebo.

Keep It Real · **#27** by **Keep It Real** » Feb 12, 2016 8:06 pm

ScholasticSpastic wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:A pill is substantive, as is god. Moving the furniture around is not.

Why not just get bigger furniture, then?

Also: God is substantive. I like the inherent contradiction.

Something that interacts with your inner biology, then. My god only exists where it is talked about or thought about or written about. Substantive though still.

Thomas Eshuis · **#28** by **Thomas Eshuis** » Feb 12, 2016 8:45 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Because placebos don't rely on the premise that you're powerless.

Er, yes they do.

Nope.

Most placebos are sold as helping your body cure itself, not as divine intervention required by the powerless.

Powerless without the placebo, just as you might be powerless without god.

Only if you fail to comprehend basic english as well as the difference between supplements and divine intervention.

Thommo · **#29** by **Thommo** » Feb 12, 2016 9:30 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Thommo wrote:Seriously though, you may as well rearrange your furniture as pray, it can have an equally beneficial effect. Just remember that the effect tails off over time, so you'll need to move it back again in a few weeks for further benefits to fortitude.

One still need maintain the fiction in the mind that the remedy will be effective. A pill is substantive, as is god. Moving the furniture around is not.

It is actually. And god is not substantive.

I can't think of the name of the particular study I'm thinking of right now, but perhaps it will come to me later or someone else will do it. It's related to the novelty effect, but the principle of the study was to measure workers happiness and productivity when their office furniture was rearranged (might have been justified by Feng Shui or some other equally bullshit reason). An increase was found, but tailed off with time. The same thing then happens if the furniture is rearranged again, even if back to the original setup.

Similarly sex and masturbation have real effects on mood, so again they can be used to promote placebo effect, it's very easy to believe you're relaxed and happier when you are. Calling something god and claiming it has special powers or whatever is just bullshit. There's no need to do that to get a placebo effect. Buy yourself a packet of magic jellybeans and meditate in an entirely non religious manner before bedtime, then reward yourself ritually with one or something, won't make any difference.

John Platko · **#30** by **John Platko** » Feb 12, 2016 9:55 pm

Derren Brown gives a brilliant demonstration of how this Placebo (I call it imagination) effect works in this video 32 minutes in with Emma.

The_Metatron · **#31** by **The_Metatron** » Feb 12, 2016 10:17 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Because placebos don't rely on the premise that you're powerless.

Er, yes they do.

Nope.

Most placebos are sold as helping your body cure itself, not as divine intervention required by the powerless.

I didn't think anyone sells placebos, as such. Sure, homeopathic shit. But, isn't a placebo a way to define the control in a drugs trial? One group gets the real treatment, another gets the placebo (null) treatment.

OlivierK · **#32** by **OlivierK** » Feb 12, 2016 11:11 pm

The_Metatron wrote:I didn't think anyone sells placebos, as such.

http://placebo.com.au/story/

The_Metatron · **#33** by **The_Metatron** » Feb 12, 2016 11:34 pm

OlivierK wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:I didn't think anyone sells placebos, as such.

http://placebo.com.au/story/

Clever, eh?

OlivierK · **#34** by **OlivierK** » Feb 13, 2016 12:20 am

The_Metatron wrote:
OlivierK wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:I didn't think anyone sells placebos, as such.

http://placebo.com.au/story/

Clever, eh?

Yep. The idea arose out of dinner conversation between a doctor and a homeopath, and they agreed that it would be interesting to simply present placebos honestly, and see what happened.

Thomas Eshuis · **#35** by **Thomas Eshuis** » Feb 13, 2016 8:24 am

The_Metatron wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Because placebos don't rely on the premise that you're powerless.

Er, yes they do.

Nope.

Most placebos are sold as helping your body cure itself, not as divine intervention required by the powerless.

I didn't think anyone sells placebos, as such. Sure, homeopathic shit. But, isn't a placebo a way to define the control in a drugs trial? One group gets the real treatment, another gets the placebo (null) treatment.

Even if that were the case and it isn't, because homoeopathy = placebos, t hey just pretend otherwise, in control groups people usually aren't told either that they're completely helpless and need the placebo to get better.

John Platko · **#36** by **John Platko** » Feb 13, 2016 6:39 pm

OlivierK wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:I didn't think anyone sells placebos, as such.

http://placebo.com.au/story/

Hmmm, they'd go done better with a bit of wine - or maybe a splash of grape juice. :priest:

The_Metatron · **#37** by **The_Metatron** » Feb 14, 2016 4:13 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Er, yes they do.

Nope.

Most placebos are sold as helping your body cure itself, not as divine intervention required by the powerless.

I didn't think anyone sells placebos, as such. Sure, homeopathic shit. But, isn't a placebo a way to define the control in a drugs trial? One group gets the real treatment, another gets the placebo (null) treatment.

Even if that were the case and it isn't, because homoeopathy = placebos, t hey just pretend otherwise, in control groups people usually aren't told either that they're completely helpless and need the placebo to get better.

Homeopathic pills = sugar
Placebo pill = sugar

Homeopathic pills = sugar = placebo pill

surreptitious57 · **#38** by **surreptitious57** » Feb 14, 2016 5:20 am

Keep It Real wrote:
placebos work even if those taking them know they are placebos. Therefore if you pray for improvement
in your character asking god to strengthen and guide you this should be effective even if there is no god

Placebos are chemical not metaphysical so your argument is fallacious
If God were a little white pill then it could possibly work but he is not

Thomas Eshuis · **#39** by **Thomas Eshuis** » Feb 14, 2016 8:39 am

The_Metatron wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Nope.

Most placebos are sold as helping your body cure itself, not as divine intervention required by the powerless.

I didn't think anyone sells placebos, as such. Sure, homeopathic shit. But, isn't a placebo a way to define the control in a drugs trial? One group gets the real treatment, another gets the placebo (null) treatment.

Even if that were the case and it isn't, because homoeopathy = placebos, t hey just pretend otherwise, in control groups people usually aren't told either that they're completely helpless and need the placebo to get better.

Homeopathic pills = sugar
Placebo pill = sugar

Homeopathic pills = sugar = placebo pill

AFAIK homoeopathic stuff tends to be water, or actual medicine greatly diluted in/with water.
My point is that neither will actually heal help you, both are sold/promised to you as being helpful, but neither as being necessary because you're completely powerless without divine intervention.

Arnold Layne · **#40** by **Arnold Layne** » Feb 14, 2016 7:57 pm

laklak wrote:Beer works better for me. Real beer, not placebo beer.

Good idea. I'll do that tonight. :thumbup:

Why not pray for self improvement? Placebos work regardless.

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