tolman wrote:

John Platko wrote:Religious practices helps many cope with difficult and very stressful situations.

Religious practices and prejudices also cause many very difficult and stressful situations.

Yes, like many medicines, it may not work for everyone. "help many" is not "help all"

And there could be side effects - erections lasting more than 4 hours, etc. etc.

When people pray and get no better, do they blame god[s], or blame themselves for being unworthy?

I hope not. Generally it's couched as a "God knows best what's best for your soul sort of thing." But I'm not keen on that. I prefer, "Even God has limitations to what God can do."

Do you think it is possible to pray for erections, or is God not really into that sort of thing? I wonder what the success rate is compared with Viagra.

Edit: tpyo

tolman wrote:

John Platko wrote:Religious practices helps many cope with difficult and very stressful situations.

Religious practices and prejudices also cause many very difficult and stressful situations.

You are correct. Knowing that your (non-born again) kids, parents etc. are destined to go to hell is a heavy burden to bear.

When people pray and get no better, do they blame god[s], or blame themselves for being unworthy?

There’s no sense of blame attached to it whatsoever. One (or many may ask), but there’s no guarantee that the healing will be forthcoming, which, by the way, is in direct contradiction to this:

And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

In times of death that passage was (always) conveniently ignored. Odd eh?

John Platko wrote:

tolman wrote:

John Platko wrote:Religious practices helps many cope with difficult and very stressful situations.

Religious practices and prejudices also cause many very difficult and stressful situations.

Yes, like many medicines, it may not work for everyone. "help many" is not "help all"

And there could be side effects - erections lasting more than 4 hours, etc. etc.

When people pray and get no better, do they blame god[s], or blame themselves for being unworthy?

I hope not. Generally it's couched as a "God knows best what's best for your soul sort of thing." But I'm not keen on that. I prefer, "Even God has limitations to what God can do."

How is that even possible? Limiting God is in direct contrast with what the Bible teaches.

Matthew 19:26 (KJV)
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

LucidFlight wrote:Go you think it is possible to pray for erections, or is God not really into that sort of thing? I wonder what the success rate is compared with Viagra.

That would not, under any circumstances, be prayed for by a born again Christian.

LucidFlight wrote:Go you think it is possible to pray for erections, or is God not really into that sort of thing? I wonder what the success rate is compared with Viagra.

As luck would have it, we recently chewed on that very thing over here.

But, in the interest of full disclosure, I have no first hand experience on the effectiveness of such prayer.

Skinny Puppy wrote:

John Platko wrote:

tolman wrote:

John Platko wrote:Religious practices helps many cope with difficult and very stressful situations.

Religious practices and prejudices also cause many very difficult and stressful situations.

Yes, like many medicines, it may not work for everyone. "help many" is not "help all"

And there could be side effects - erections lasting more than 4 hours, etc. etc.

When people pray and get no better, do they blame god[s], or blame themselves for being unworthy?

I hope not. Generally it's couched as a "God knows best what's best for your soul sort of thing." But I'm not keen on that. I prefer, "Even God has limitations to what God can do."

How is that even possible? Limiting God is in direct contrast with what the Bible teaches.

Well it's not like I'm limiting God, I'm just reporting the facts as I see them. God, is most definitely limited in God's ability to directly cause change on earth. Surprising limited for an entity that created all, I think. Odd that.

And, I hate to be the bearer of more bad news but, well how shall I put this I'll just give it to you straight: you can't believe everything you read in the Bible.

Matthew 19:26 (KJV)
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

I'm thinking Jesus got that a bit wrong, which sadly, I think he realized as he was hanging on the cross.

John Platko wrote:

The_Metatron wrote:No conflict of interest there, eh? Director, Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health, writing an article about how useful prayer is.

I could understand how an MD who observes that the healing power of prayer is an under tapped resource decides to direct his energy helping people tap it.

In any case, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand how this works.

As the good doc explains. For some people, religion provides a way to cope with illness.



>snip>

I snipped your 2nd video, I simply don’t watch long videos as there are just too many of them posted on this forum and my time is limited.

While it may seem like I’m contradicting myself now, everything that I’ve written and observed is simply based on my ‘say-so’. That type of ‘evidence’ is 100% worthless from a scientific POV.

The doctor is doing what I’m doing... using ‘say-so’ as proof of faith’s healing powers, and in addition, he’s speaking from a highly biased POV. Because he’s affiliated with The Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health, he’s in no position to make any type of critical assessments since he’s already drawn a line in the sand regarding having an objective outlook. Even if he were to provide data, test results etc., I’d take them with a grain of salt. Anyone involved in the sciences has to have no irons in the fire, (Even Einstein had an iron in the fire and that’s why he introduced the cosmological constant. That’s not disparaging him, by the way) otherwise, intentionally or unintentionally, their views can poison their results. That doesn’t mean that they’re liars, however, it does mean that they aren’t looking at an issue with an open mind which is willing to accept test data on its own merit even if it’s in direct conflict with their personal beliefs.

Thinking this through a little further (logically)...

While I was 100% positive that what I saw and witnessed were legitimate healings and actually did happen, I was (at that time) a fundie of mega-proportions. Were my observations reliable, fact based and true-to-life? I simply can’t say with even a modicum of certainty because I wasn’t a neutral observer and simply didn’t question them. In addition, I wasn’t looking for doubts or failures; I was looking for a reinforcement of my strongly-held beliefs... which I received on numerous occasions.

My mind, at that time, had been poisoned to reality through years of brainwashing. The brainwashing wasn’t nefarious: my parents, the congregation, pastor etc. held the ‘truth’ and desperately wanted me to see it. They did that by any means necessary since they didn’t want me to be lost (go to hell). I bought into it and had no need to look any further. And why would I? I was now a ‘truth-holder’ (I was born again) and nothing else in the world mattered. Unfortunately, with the possession of the ‘truth’ I totally lost any critical faculties and would not entertain any dissenting views or opinions. Couple this with an entire congregation who saw things as I did, and gave me positive reinforcement, I was a witness to many a miracle healing.

From a scientific POV, psychosomatic conditions are documented, and as I stated earlier, that could account for some of the people that were cured.
http://patient.info/health/psychosomatic-disorders

Skinny Puppy wrote:

LucidFlight wrote:Go you think it is possible to pray for erections, or is God not really into that sort of thing? I wonder what the success rate is compared with Viagra.

That would not, under any circumstances, be prayed for by a born again Christian.

I can't find any Catholic rules against such a thing. It's like praying for good health.

And it looks like the Assemblies of God church has an impotency cure that involves the pastor anointing the affliction with olive oil. (extra virgin? )

From

... Then about a 3 years (10 years with impotence now) on I went to a Assemblies of God church and they had an evening healing service every Sunday. I told the pastor my problem (something I not done before at any other church) and the pastor prayed for me and anointed me with olive oil, another visiting pastor had prayed for me a week earlier (whom I also confessed the problem to) and another Christain sister had prayed for me a week earlier than that (whom, I bravely confessed the problem to as well) and over the next few weeks I notice my penis was reacting to my feelings and emotions about female thoughts and over the next six months everything started to feel normal again and now its been ‘working’ completely since that time – 3 years ago and it feels great to be ‘alive’ again and all because of Jesus Christ who healed me thru faith and prayer from his servants. I love you Jesus, my Lord. Thank-you Jesus Lord of my life, your will be done, not mine.
Only Jesus can heal and its free

Skinny Puppy wrote:

John Platko wrote:

The_Metatron wrote:No conflict of interest there, eh? Director, Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health, writing an article about how useful prayer is.

I could understand how an MD who observes that the healing power of prayer is an under tapped resource decides to direct his energy helping people tap it.

In any case, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand how this works.

As the good doc explains. For some people, religion provides a way to cope with illness.



>snip>

I snipped your 2nd video, I simply don’t watch long videos as there are just too many of them posted on this forum and my time is limited.

Understandable, but of all that I might post on this forum, I think a Sapolsky video is the last thing that should be clipped.

While it may seem like I’m contradicting myself now, everything that I’ve written and observed is simply based on my ‘say-so’. That type of ‘evidence’ is 100% worthless from a scientific POV.

The doctor is doing what I’m doing... using ‘say-so’ as proof of faith’s healing powers, and in addition, he’s speaking from a highly biased POV. Because he’s affiliated with The Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health, he’s in no position to make any type of critical assessments since he’s already drawn a line in the sand regarding having an objective outlook. Even if he were to provide data, test results etc., I’d take them with a grain of salt. Anyone involved in the sciences has to have no irons in the fire, (Even Einstein had an iron in the fire and that’s why he introduced the cosmological constant. That’s not disparaging him, by the way) otherwise, intentionally or unintentionally, their views can poison their results. That doesn’t mean that they’re liars, however, it does mean that they aren’t looking at an issue with an open mind which is willing to accept test data on its own merit even if it’s in direct conflict with their personal beliefs.

Exactly who do you think doesn't have an iron in the fire? The Dr. who has world class medical training, should/is allowed to do any science he wants. And his work should be subjected to the same scrutiny all other science is subjected too- that is the mechanism that weeds out bias and error, rather than people pointing a finger and saying: I don't believe you cause you're a believer.

John Platko wrote:
Exactly who do you think doesn't have an iron in the fire?

Everyone has an iron in the fire. That's why God created double blind studies.

John Platko wrote:

Skinny Puppy wrote:

LucidFlight wrote:Go you think it is possible to pray for erections, or is God not really into that sort of thing? I wonder what the success rate is compared with Viagra.

That would not, under any circumstances, be prayed for by a born again Christian.

I can't find any Catholic rules against such a thing. It's like praying for good health.

And it looks like the Assemblies of God church has an impotency cure that involves the pastor anointing the affliction with olive oil. (extra virgin? )

From

... Then about a 3 years (10 years with impotence now) on I went to a Assemblies of God church and they had an evening healing service every Sunday. I told the pastor my problem (something I not done before at any other church) and the pastor prayed for me and anointed me with olive oil, another visiting pastor had prayed for me a week earlier (whom I also confessed the problem to) and another Christain sister had prayed for me a week earlier than that (whom, I bravely confessed the problem to as well) and over the next few weeks I notice my penis was reacting to my feelings and emotions about female thoughts and over the next six months everything started to feel normal again and now its been ‘working’ completely since that time – 3 years ago and it feels great to be ‘alive’ again and all because of Jesus Christ who healed me thru faith and prayer from his servants. I love you Jesus, my Lord. Thank-you Jesus Lord of my life, your will be done, not mine.
Only Jesus can heal and its free

You’ve quoted from a ‘blog-type’ post. His post has no validity and therefore is meaningless and can be discarded.

Skinny Puppy wrote:

John Platko wrote:

Skinny Puppy wrote:

LucidFlight wrote:Go you think it is possible to pray for erections, or is God not really into that sort of thing? I wonder what the success rate is compared with Viagra.

That would not, under any circumstances, be prayed for by a born again Christian.

I can't find any Catholic rules against such a thing. It's like praying for good health.

And it looks like the Assemblies of God church has an impotency cure that involves the pastor anointing the affliction with olive oil. (extra virgin? )

From

... Then about a 3 years (10 years with impotence now) on I went to a Assemblies of God church and they had an evening healing service every Sunday. I told the pastor my problem (something I not done before at any other church) and the pastor prayed for me and anointed me with olive oil, another visiting pastor had prayed for me a week earlier (whom I also confessed the problem to) and another Christain sister had prayed for me a week earlier than that (whom, I bravely confessed the problem to as well) and over the next few weeks I notice my penis was reacting to my feelings and emotions about female thoughts and over the next six months everything started to feel normal again and now its been ‘working’ completely since that time – 3 years ago and it feels great to be ‘alive’ again and all because of Jesus Christ who healed me thru faith and prayer from his servants. I love you Jesus, my Lord. Thank-you Jesus Lord of my life, your will be done, not mine.
Only Jesus can heal and its free

You’ve quoted from a ‘blog-type’ post. His post has no validity and therefore is meaningless and can be discarded.

Perhaps so, never-the-less, if that particular issues doesn't come up for me I may give his olive oil remedy a go.

It puts the olive oil on its hose, or else it gets the skin again.

John Platko wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

John Platko wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Nothing like what you originally tried to insinuate however.

I'm not trying to insinuate anything, Thomas, I'm spelling it out.

Same difference, you were still mistaken.

John Platko wrote:Religious practices helps many cope with difficult and very stressful situations. Stress has be scientifically demonstrated to be harmful to health - in many many ways. Therefore, religious practice (i.e. praying, etc., etc.) can improve the health of those who engage in it in a way that helps them reduce their stress - no woo and/or wibble about it!

Believing you will get better helps. Breathing exercises help Christian prayer, Buddhist mantras etc, don't.

And what happens if Christian prayer or Buddhist mantras help you believe? Or help you relax?

I'm not just talking about reducing stress by believing you'll get better. That may be part of it but I'm talking about reducing stress by letting go of worries over what you cannot control. Taking some of the responsibility you may be feeling for things you have no control over off your shoulders and giving that responsibility to a higher power. That can help reduce stress too. And reducing stress tends to increase your health - in lots of ways, e.g. your immune system tends to function better.

Aaaaand ... we're back to the let it go and give responsibility to a higher power.

Except that it doesn't fucking work, as the multiple studies (which you obsessively ignore) of AA demonstrate.

Weaver wrote:

John Platko wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

John Platko wrote:

I'm not trying to insinuate anything, Thomas, I'm spelling it out.

Same difference, you were still mistaken.

John Platko wrote:Religious practices helps many cope with difficult and very stressful situations. Stress has be scientifically demonstrated to be harmful to health - in many many ways. Therefore, religious practice (i.e. praying, etc., etc.) can improve the health of those who engage in it in a way that helps them reduce their stress - no woo and/or wibble about it!

Believing you will get better helps. Breathing exercises help Christian prayer, Buddhist mantras etc, don't.

And what happens if Christian prayer or Buddhist mantras help you believe? Or help you relax?

I'm not just talking about reducing stress by believing you'll get better. That may be part of it but I'm talking about reducing stress by letting go of worries over what you cannot control. Taking some of the responsibility you may be feeling for things you have no control over off your shoulders and giving that responsibility to a higher power. That can help reduce stress too. And reducing stress tends to increase your health - in lots of ways, e.g. your immune system tends to function better.

Aaaaand ... we're back to the let it go and give responsibility to a higher power.

Except that it doesn't fucking work, as the multiple studies (which you obsessively ignore) of AA demonstrate.

We're not back to AA I've explained exactly how religious practice helps some be healthier- with the help of some actual medical professionals, who have done actual studies, to back up my ideas.

And you've ignored everything everyone else posts which utterly refutes your claims, and continued asserting that your claims are valid despite the devastating critiques.

Just like you did in the AA thread.

Just like you do in every thread.

Weaver wrote:And you've ignored everything everyone else posts which utterly refutes your claims, and continued asserting that your claims are valid despite the devastating critiques.

Just like you did in the AA thread.

Just like you do in every thread.

This claim of mine is rather difficult to dispute.

1) Stress is a killer, it has many scientifically proven adverse effects on health. Less stress generally leads to better health.
(see the work of Dr. Robert Sapolsky, (and others) for further details)

2) Religious practice gives some a way to cope with problems that are beyond their ability to personally control. By handing these burdens over to a (imaginary or not) higher power, they reduce their stress.

From 1 and 2 we can conclude that religious practices, because it can reduce stress, can lead to better health.

I think upon detailed investigation you'll find that the preponderance of evidence supports my claim. (Of course, if a person's religious practice has them spending a lot of time worrying about if they are hell bound - well that might just kill them. But that's irrelevant to my argument.)

Yeah, I'll think I'll avoid a stress medication that has 'Worrying about being hellbound' listed in the possible side effects.

Keep It Real wrote:So placebos work even if those taking them know they are placebos. Therefore if you pray for improvements in your character, asking god to strengthen and guide you, this should be effective even if there is no god. I'm going to pray for fortitude tonight, I think.

I call it "hope". Nothing to do with gods or praying to them.