Weaver wrote:Proponents of prayer assert - blindly, and without evidence - that intercessory prayers work from a distance.

I find it best not to simply believe what people say when they claim spooky action at a distance. Being a technically minded theist, I like to understand how these things work at a bit more of a nuts and bolts level.

You claim it is irresponsible for this to be tested - but wouldn't it be irresponsible to NOT test it if it actually had some fucking chance of working?

I'm claiming it was irresponsible for this to be tested in the way it was tested. That is, having some believers, believe they were involved in testing God. For many believers that is an end run around faith and understandably, I think, increase their stress just at a time when reducing their stress was what a Dr. should order.

My problem is with how the test was constructed, I personally like the idea of testing religious ideas - I know of no other way to separated the wibble from the truth.

Now, if you want to start from the premise that prayer, by definition, is bullshit magic, then yes, I think telling subjects that someone cast spells related to them could indeed cause unnecessary stress - but that isn't what you're saying.

You cannot have your cow pie and eat it too.

But I clearly explained how prayer can work to improve health. It hinges on whether or not your religious practice reduces stress in stressful situations. If it does, then scientific studies show that the reduction in stress is beneficial to your health, for example, increasing the ability of your immune system to do its thing.

This really isn't that hard to understand, it's like:

If prayer reduces stress then it has demonstrable health benefits.

Is it so hard to believe that for some, prayer - a connection with a higher power in a time of need, can provide comfort and reduce stress?

I'll just add, I find it baffling why some atheists who know this to be true, Dr. Sapolsky for example, can't put 2 and 2 together. For that he gets a well deserved.

John Platko wrote:

If prayer reduces stress then it has demonstrable health benefits.

Mindlessly regurgitating this won't change the fact that no-one's been able to demonstrate this.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

John Platko wrote:

If prayer reduces stress then it has demonstrable health benefits.

Mindlessly regurgitating this won't change the fact that no-one's been able to demonstrate this.

Which part are you doubting, Thomas:

A) For some people, prayer can reduce stress.

B) Reduction of stress has demonstrable heath benefits.

C) Both A and B

John Platko wrote:

Weaver wrote:Proponents of prayer assert - blindly, and without evidence - that intercessory prayers work from a distance.

I find it best not to simply believe what people say when they claim spooky action at a distance. Being a technically minded theist, I like to understand how these things work at a bit more of a nuts and bolts level.

You claim it is irresponsible for this to be tested - but wouldn't it be irresponsible to NOT test it if it actually had some fucking chance of working?

I'm claiming it was irresponsible for this to be tested in the way it was tested. That is, having some believers, believe they were involved in testing God. For many believers that is an end run around faith and understandably, I think, increase their stress just at a time when reducing their stress was what a Dr. should order.

My problem is with how the test was constructed, I personally like the idea of testing religious ideas - I know of no other way to separated the wibble from the truth.

Now, if you want to start from the premise that prayer, by definition, is bullshit magic, then yes, I think telling subjects that someone cast spells related to them could indeed cause unnecessary stress - but that isn't what you're saying.

You cannot have your cow pie and eat it too.

But I clearly explained how prayer can work to improve health. It hinges on whether or not your religious practice reduces stress in stressful situations. If it does, then scientific studies show that the reduction in stress is beneficial to your health, for example, increasing the ability of your immune system to do its thing.

This really isn't that hard to understand, it's like:

If prayer reduces stress then it has demonstrable health benefits.

Is it so hard to believe that for some, prayer - a connection with a higher power in a time of need, can provide comfort and reduce stress?

I'll just add, I find it baffling why some atheists who know this to be true, Dr. Sapolsky for example, can't put 2 and 2 together. For that he gets a well deserved.

You like to change things up, don't you? We've been talking about intercessory prayer. You claim to be catholic. You ought to know what that means.

The stress reduction from prayer of which you're so certain has meaning only to the one doing the praying. Are you certain that the test subjects in the intercessory prayer study even knew in what group they were a member? There's another trick to eliminate that confounding factor. Don't tell the subjects what group they're in.

Let's make this simple: it wouldn't be a big trick to find a thousand amputees who'd like not to be an amputee. Half in a prayed-for group, half in a no-prayed for group, don't tell them which group they're in. They don't even need to know if they're in a prayer effectiveness study. Find a thousand theists to pray for a group of amputees. You don't even have to tell the theists that another group exists. Pray your fool asses off.

See who grows limbs.

You know as well as I do that when you control for these things and remove ambiguity, prayer does nothing. Ever.

John Platko wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

John Platko wrote:

If prayer reduces stress then it has demonstrable health benefits.

Mindlessly regurgitating this won't change the fact that no-one's been able to demonstrate this.

Which part are you doubting, Thomas:

A) For some people, prayer can reduce stress.

B) Reduction of stress has demonstrable heath benefits.

C) Both A and B

Prayer is harmful to the spirit of man. It makes his mind whither away in false hope and lack of resolve. It is only through thought and action that we improve ourselves. Prayer is for the sick minded sycophantic slaves of the establishment of religion.

The_Metatron wrote:

John Platko wrote:

Weaver wrote:Proponents of prayer assert - blindly, and without evidence - that intercessory prayers work from a distance.

I find it best not to simply believe what people say when they claim spooky action at a distance. Being a technically minded theist, I like to understand how these things work at a bit more of a nuts and bolts level.

You claim it is irresponsible for this to be tested - but wouldn't it be irresponsible to NOT test it if it actually had some fucking chance of working?

I'm claiming it was irresponsible for this to be tested in the way it was tested. That is, having some believers, believe they were involved in testing God. For many believers that is an end run around faith and understandably, I think, increase their stress just at a time when reducing their stress was what a Dr. should order.

My problem is with how the test was constructed, I personally like the idea of testing religious ideas - I know of no other way to separated the wibble from the truth.

Now, if you want to start from the premise that prayer, by definition, is bullshit magic, then yes, I think telling subjects that someone cast spells related to them could indeed cause unnecessary stress - but that isn't what you're saying.

You cannot have your cow pie and eat it too.

But I clearly explained how prayer can work to improve health. It hinges on whether or not your religious practice reduces stress in stressful situations. If it does, then scientific studies show that the reduction in stress is beneficial to your health, for example, increasing the ability of your immune system to do its thing.

This really isn't that hard to understand, it's like:

If prayer reduces stress then it has demonstrable health benefits.

Is it so hard to believe that for some, prayer - a connection with a higher power in a time of need, can provide comfort and reduce stress?

I'll just add, I find it baffling why some atheists who know this to be true, Dr. Sapolsky for example, can't put 2 and 2 together. For that he gets a well deserved.

You like to change things up, don't you? We've been talking about intercessory prayer.

"We" were talking about a lot of things, intercessory prayer being only one of them, and I don't see what blind intercessory prayer has to do with the thread topic- which relates to prayer and placebos.

You claim to be catholic. You ought to know what that means.

I know what it means.

The stress reduction from prayer of which you're so certain has meaning only to the one doing the praying. Are you certain that the test subjects in the intercessory prayer study even knew in what group they were a member?

I'm certain that the members of the group who knew people were praying for them (1 of the 3 groups) knew that people were praying for them.

There's another trick to eliminate that confounding factor. Don't tell the subjects what group they're in.

Did you read the study? Do you know what they actually did? This is starting to feel to me like the Apple conversation where you seemed to think you knew what could or couldn't be done, and then we find out later that you didn't even know what model phone we were talking about.

Let's make this simple: it wouldn't be a big trick to find a thousand amputees who'd like not to be an amputee. Half in a prayed-for group, half in a no-prayed for group, don't tell them which group they're in. They don't even need to know if they're in a prayer effectiveness study. Find a thousand theists to pray for a group of amputees. You don't even have to tell the theists that another group exists. Pray your fool asses off.

See who grows limbs.

You know as well as I do that when you control for these things and remove ambiguity, prayer does nothing. Ever.

A medicine doesn't have to be able to grow legs to be a useful medicine. You get that - right? I mean, just because Viagra can't grow limbs doesn't make it an impotent medicine - right?

So just because there may be some limitations to prayer, which for the sake of argument I'll concede, it doesn't mean prayer can't improve the health of some people - for the reasons I've clearly explained here. Stress is a killer and, for some, prayer reduces stress. QED

So does a blow job. All you have to do is figure out what is different between a blow job and a prayer.


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John Platko wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

John Platko wrote:

If prayer reduces stress then it has demonstrable health benefits.

Mindlessly regurgitating this won't change the fact that no-one's been able to demonstrate this.

Which part are you doubting, Thomas:

A) For some people, prayer can reduce stress.

B) Reduction of stress has demonstrable heath benefits.

C) Both A and B

Given that I've already explained this to you, multiple times, this post only serves as evidence of your incessant and vapid trolling.

Doubting Thomas :snigger:

The_Metatron wrote:So does a blow job. All you have to do is figure out what is different between a blow job and a prayer.

Prayer is free?

The_Metatron wrote:So does a blow job.

Well some doctors suggest a few weeks stand down after serious heart problems.

And those dealing with this issue might have a bit of a chicken and egg problem.

All you have to do is figure out what is different between a blow job and a prayer.

hmmmmm
Oh I know!

When I pray, I'm the one on my knees ...

Placebos can relieve stress, so placebos are beneficial?

I do not read horoscopes even if I do not believe in them just in case my neurons would fire without me knowing it :)

quas wrote:Placebos can relieve stress, so placebos are beneficial?

That's pretty much the gist of it.

Stress has been shown to be not so good.

tuco wrote:I do not read horoscopes even if I do not believe in them just in case my neurons would fire without me knowing it

Yes, I see the wisdom in that move.

On shoulders: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/10/09/horseshoe-luck/ lol

Umm... because placebos only work if you think they will. If a doctor gives me sugar pills instead of real medicine for anxiety but actually KNOW they're sugar pills, it won't work for shit.

CIS wrote:Umm... because placebos only work if you think they will. If a doctor gives me sugar pills instead of real medicine for anxiety but actually KNOW they're sugar pills, it won't work for shit.

Not strictly true. Evidence has been presented that placebos can have an effect on a patient even if they know they are a placebo.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3008733/

BlackBart wrote:

CIS wrote:Umm... because placebos only work if you think they will. If a doctor gives me sugar pills instead of real medicine for anxiety but actually KNOW they're sugar pills, it won't work for shit.

Not strictly true. Evidence has been presented that placebos can have an effect on a patient even if they know they are a placebo.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3008733/

Mind-body self-healing processes are amazing.

So if you have IBS, and for whatever reason, prayer doesn't work for you (perhaps you think prayer too irrational to engage in), then you might be prescribed a sugar pill.

John Platko wrote:

BlackBart wrote:

CIS wrote:Umm... because placebos only work if you think they will. If a doctor gives me sugar pills instead of real medicine for anxiety but actually KNOW they're sugar pills, it won't work for shit.

Not strictly true. Evidence has been presented that placebos can have an effect on a patient even if they know they are a placebo.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3008733/

Mind-body self-healing processes are amazing.

So if you have IBS, and for whatever reason, prayer doesn't work for you (perhaps you think prayer too irrational to engage in), then you might be prescribed a sugar pill.

Except placebos don't actually heal anything. They only reduce subjective symptoms. Plus, prayers aren't sugar pills - just because sugar pills have a placebo effect doesn't allow us to conclude that prayers do. You'd need to provide some robustly gathered evidence. Good luck with that, so right back at ya.