Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#561  Postby CharlieM » Apr 27, 2014 9:46 pm

GrahamH wrote:
CharlieM wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
CharlieM wrote:More relevant Barfield quotes:


Nobody thinks that brains construct worlds. If brains are parts of a physical world then they construct views of the world, not the world.

But that's the whole point. The physical world is a construct of the brain.

Nonsense. An Idealist thinks the physical world and brain are constructs of a mind, but a physicalist doesn't think the physical world is a construct of the brain. It could be that the mind is an 'information construct' (model) made by the brain.
The two metaphysical positions are more or less mirror images of one another.

If you want to argue this point take it to Philosophy forum.


I don't want to argue about it because I more or less agree with it. Maybe I wasn't being clear about what I meant. The physical world, ie the world we experience, appears to us to be the way it is because of our attributes. We can't assume that the world we experience is real just because of the way it appears. Only a naive realist would make that assumption. The world of appearances is a construct of our brain processes acting on sense impressions. I don't see why a physicalist would argue with that.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#562  Postby CharlieM » Apr 27, 2014 9:55 pm

Here is an interesting article:
Abstract

Psychedelic drugs have a long history of use in healing ceremonies, but despite renewed interest in their therapeutic potential, we continue to know very little about how they work in the brain. Here we used psilocybin, a classic psychedelic found in magic mushrooms, and a task-free functional MRI (fMRI) protocol designed to capture the transition from normal waking consciousness to the psychedelic state. Arterial spin labeling perfusion and blood-oxygen level-dependent (BOLD) fMRI were used to map cerebral blood flow and changes in venous oxygenation before and after intravenous infusions of placebo and psilocybin. Fifteen healthy volunteers were scanned with arterial spin labeling and a separate 15 with BOLD. As predicted, profound changes in consciousness were observed after psilocybin, but surprisingly, only decreases in cerebral blood flow and BOLD signal were seen, and these were maximal in hub regions, such as the thalamus and anterior and posterior cingulate cortex (ACC and PCC). Decreased activity in the ACC/medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC) was a consistent finding and the magnitude of this decrease predicted the intensity of the subjective effects. Based on these results, a seed-based pharmaco-physiological interaction/functional connectivity analysis was performed using a medial prefrontal seed. Psilocybin caused a significant decrease in the positive coupling between the mPFC and PCC. These results strongly imply that the subjective effects of psychedelic drugs are caused by decreased activity and connectivity in the brain's key connector hubs, enabling a state of unconstrained cognition.


This is the exact opposite of what would have been expected. According to Wiki normal effects include euphoria, visual and mental hallucinations, changes in perception, a distorted sense of time, and spiritual experiences, and can include possible adverse reactions such as nausea and panic attacks. If this is the case why did they record such a decrease in brain activity?

From Sam Wong, Imperial College, London
Professor David Nutt, from the Department of Medicine at Imperial College London, the senior author of both studies, said: "Psychedelics are thought of as 'mind-expanding' drugs so it has commonly been assumed that they work by increasing brain activity, but surprisingly, we found that psilocybin actually caused activity to decrease in areas that have the densest connections with other areas. These hubs constrain our experience of the world and keep it orderly. We now know that deactivating these regions leads to a state in which the world is experienced as strange."

The intensity of the effects reported by the participants, including visions of geometric patterns, unusual bodily sensations and altered sense of space and time, correlated with a decrease in oxygenation and blood flow in certain parts of the brain.


This is contradictory evidence for brain activity being the source of consciousness.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#563  Postby Animavore » Apr 27, 2014 9:57 pm

No it's not.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#564  Postby Rumraket » Apr 27, 2014 10:07 pm

:rofl:
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#565  Postby Rumraket » Apr 27, 2014 10:13 pm

CharlieM wrote:Here is an interesting article:
Abstract

Psychedelic drugs have a long history of use in healing ceremonies, but despite renewed interest in their therapeutic potential, we continue to know very little about how they work in the brain. Here we used psilocybin, a classic psychedelic found in magic mushrooms, and a task-free functional MRI (fMRI) protocol designed to capture the transition from normal waking consciousness to the psychedelic state. Arterial spin labeling perfusion and blood-oxygen level-dependent (BOLD) fMRI were used to map cerebral blood flow and changes in venous oxygenation before and after intravenous infusions of placebo and psilocybin. Fifteen healthy volunteers were scanned with arterial spin labeling and a separate 15 with BOLD. As predicted, profound changes in consciousness were observed after psilocybin, but surprisingly, only decreases in cerebral blood flow and BOLD signal were seen, and these were maximal in hub regions, such as the thalamus and anterior and posterior cingulate cortex (ACC and PCC). Decreased activity in the ACC/medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC) was a consistent finding and the magnitude of this decrease predicted the intensity of the subjective effects. Based on these results, a seed-based pharmaco-physiological interaction/functional connectivity analysis was performed using a medial prefrontal seed. Psilocybin caused a significant decrease in the positive coupling between the mPFC and PCC. These results strongly imply that the subjective effects of psychedelic drugs are caused by decreased activity and connectivity in the brain's key connector hubs, enabling a state of unconstrained cognition.


This is the exact opposite of what would have been expected. According to Wiki normal effects include euphoria, visual and mental hallucinations, changes in perception, a distorted sense of time, and spiritual experiences, and can include possible adverse reactions such as nausea and panic attacks. If this is the case why did they record such a decrease in brain activity?

From Sam Wong, Imperial College, London
Professor David Nutt, from the Department of Medicine at Imperial College London, the senior author of both studies, said: "Psychedelics are thought of as 'mind-expanding' drugs so it has commonly been assumed that they work by increasing brain activity, but surprisingly, we found that psilocybin actually caused activity to decrease in areas that have the densest connections with other areas. These hubs constrain our experience of the world and keep it orderly. We now know that deactivating these regions leads to a state in which the world is experienced as strange."

The intensity of the effects reported by the participants, including visions of geometric patterns, unusual bodily sensations and altered sense of space and time, correlated with a decrease in oxygenation and blood flow in certain parts of the brain.


This is contradictory evidence for brain activity being the source of consciousness.

No, it's just contradictory to how drugs were assumed to affect brain activity. It doesn't follow and is not even implied by this, that brain activity is not the source of consciousness.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#566  Postby GrahamH » Apr 28, 2014 8:45 am

CharlieM wrote:Here is an interesting article:
Abstract

Psychedelic drugs have a long history of use in healing ceremonies, but despite renewed interest in their therapeutic potential, we continue to know very little about how they work in the brain. Here we used psilocybin, a classic psychedelic found in magic mushrooms, and a task-free functional MRI (fMRI) protocol designed to capture the transition from normal waking consciousness to the psychedelic state. Arterial spin labeling perfusion and blood-oxygen level-dependent (BOLD) fMRI were used to map cerebral blood flow and changes in venous oxygenation before and after intravenous infusions of placebo and psilocybin. Fifteen healthy volunteers were scanned with arterial spin labeling and a separate 15 with BOLD. As predicted, profound changes in consciousness were observed after psilocybin, but surprisingly, only decreases in cerebral blood flow and BOLD signal were seen, and these were maximal in hub regions, such as the thalamus and anterior and posterior cingulate cortex (ACC and PCC). Decreased activity in the ACC/medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC) was a consistent finding and the magnitude of this decrease predicted the intensity of the subjective effects. Based on these results, a seed-based pharmaco-physiological interaction/functional connectivity analysis was performed using a medial prefrontal seed. Psilocybin caused a significant decrease in the positive coupling between the mPFC and PCC. These results strongly imply that the subjective effects of psychedelic drugs are caused by decreased activity and connectivity in the brain's key connector hubs, enabling a state of unconstrained cognition.


This is the exact opposite of what would have been expected. According to Wiki normal effects include euphoria, visual and mental hallucinations, changes in perception, a distorted sense of time, and spiritual experiences, and can include possible adverse reactions such as nausea and panic attacks. If this is the case why did they record such a decrease in brain activity?

From Sam Wong, Imperial College, London
Professor David Nutt, from the Department of Medicine at Imperial College London, the senior author of both studies, said: "Psychedelics are thought of as 'mind-expanding' drugs so it has commonly been assumed that they work by increasing brain activity, but surprisingly, we found that psilocybin actually caused activity to decrease in areas that have the densest connections with other areas. These hubs constrain our experience of the world and keep it orderly. We now know that deactivating these regions leads to a state in which the world is experienced as strange."

The intensity of the effects reported by the participants, including visions of geometric patterns, unusual bodily sensations and altered sense of space and time, correlated with a decrease in oxygenation and blood flow in certain parts of the brain.


This is contradictory evidence for brain activity being the source of consciousness.


Actually, i think that finding hints at the opposite conclusion.
If the brain is making sense of the world, and it's own function, then we could suppose that some barin activity serves to model the extent of the body, measure the veracity of perception, determine what to include in 'model of attention (Graziano).
Neural activity has to deal with a lot of 'noise' from confusing stimuli, electro-chemical noise, cross-talk and inherent limits of the sensory systems. Suppose that part of the perceptual system is detecting and correcting errors, suppressing invalid
percepts. You could think of it as a conscillience detector. Inhibit such a function and the apprent error level drops. Even weird percets will not seem weird. A suppressed sense of unreality is the same as a heightened sense of reality. We should expect such supression of neiral activity to lead to perception of strange things that would normally be filtered out, and a sense that they are hyper-real.

Similar reasoning would apply to sense of personal extent. Normally brain function does a good job of mapping the boundaries of the body, but impair that faculty and it could result in body parts seem to not belong to you, or objects around you seeming to be you. It could give rise to sense of being one with everything because your sense of bodily self is suppressed.

It seems obvious to me that inhibiting a time-keeping function will result in distorted time perception with no 'extra work'.

We have a sense of what is known to us that is not identical to access to our knowledge. It seem likely that errors in estimation of what is known would lead to a sense of knowing more or less than one actually knows. In the extreme you might have a sense of omniscience, without any change in the information available to you, simply because your brain has made a poor estimation of it's own capability.

A case for more brain activity when hallucinating might be the idea that the brain is a transmitter of information, or a generator of a virtual world. In each case, if we assume that there is an increase in novel detail the transmitter or generator has more work to do. Both these assumptions suppose a sort of Cartesian Theatre, where there is a subjective entity that experiences a level of detail. Such assumptions are probably false.
Last edited by GrahamH on Apr 28, 2014 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#567  Postby CharlieM » Apr 28, 2014 4:03 pm

Graham, I'll try to get back to your specific points when I have more time, meanwhile I'll leave you with this from Stuart Hameroff:

Youtube title, A New Marriage of Brain and Computer. (I cannot get it to embed and I haven't got time to muck about)
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#568  Postby GrahamH » Apr 28, 2014 4:18 pm

[ETA]This is the video in-line.
Last edited by GrahamH on Apr 28, 2014 4:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#569  Postby DavidMcC » Apr 28, 2014 4:47 pm

I expect you realise, Graham, that you've just linked the same video as CharlieM.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#570  Postby SpeedOfSound » Apr 29, 2014 3:48 am

CharlieM wrote:Graham, I'll try to get back to your specific points when I have more time, meanwhile I'll leave you with this from Stuart Hameroff:

Youtube title, A New Marriage of Brain and Computer. (I cannot get it to embed and I haven't got time to muck about)

Oh no's. We're resorting to Jackmeoff now.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#571  Postby kennyc » Apr 29, 2014 11:51 am

SpeedOfSound wrote:
CharlieM wrote:Graham, I'll try to get back to your specific points when I have more time, meanwhile I'll leave you with this from Stuart Hameroff:

Youtube title, A New Marriage of Brain and Computer. (I cannot get it to embed and I haven't got time to muck about)

Oh no's. Were resorting to Jackmeoff now.



Yep, that same ol' bullshit. These threads are like being trapped in a Groundhog Day Twilight-Zone alternate conscious universe.

:shock: :? :o :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#572  Postby GrahamH » Apr 29, 2014 12:29 pm

'Quantum consciousness' doesn't seem to actually explain anything about the hard problem. Hameroff says a lot about computation. The claim to explain 'the conscious bing' seems as baseless as 'Singluarity' (complexity).
I'm agnostic about the details of brain computation. If consciousness is information processing 'self model' could apply. I't not about the mechanics of computation, it's about the information computed.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#573  Postby SpeedOfSound » Apr 29, 2014 12:58 pm

I first ask myself if computation and information is the way we should be approaching all of this. In the subtle twist on semantics provided by the thermostat models, I find a means to escape some of this computer talk and return to a model based on the function of a biological organism. In this process of escaping the computation model I encountered a surprise in what I am willing to say about the where and the what of my mind. If there is a tree and I am in proximity then there is a system at play. I refuse to assign conspicuousness or mind to any one end of that system, no matter how appealing that is to our 20th century delusions and intuitions about the brain and senses and representation.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#574  Postby GrahamH » Apr 29, 2014 1:14 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:I first ask myself if computation and information is the way we should be approaching all of this. In the subtle twist on semantics provided by the thermostat models, I find a means to escape some of this computer talk and return to a model based on the function of a biological organism. In this process of escaping the computation model I encountered a surprise in what I am willing to say about the where and the what of my mind. If there is a tree and I am in proximity then there is a system at play. I refuse to assign conspicuousness or mind to any one end of that system, no matter how appealing that is to our 20th century delusions and intuitions about the brain and senses and representation.


That's a step further that Charlie's consciousness in his stubbed toe. You want your conscious experience of the tree to hang between your body and the tree, or be in the tree?

What about your experience of remembering the tree, or imagining a fantasy tree?
People experience thought in solitary confinement or sensory deprivation. A blind person can visualise, a deaf person can imagine sounds. There is surely something local to the skull that is crucial to consciousness.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#575  Postby SpeedOfSound » Apr 29, 2014 1:16 pm

GrahamH wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:I first ask myself if computation and information is the way we should be approaching all of this. In the subtle twist on semantics provided by the thermostat models, I find a means to escape some of this computer talk and return to a model based on the function of a biological organism. In this process of escaping the computation model I encountered a surprise in what I am willing to say about the where and the what of my mind. If there is a tree and I am in proximity then there is a system at play. I refuse to assign conspicuousness or mind to any one end of that system, no matter how appealing that is to our 20th century delusions and intuitions about the brain and senses and representation.


That's a step further that Charlie's consciousness in his stubbed toe. You want your conscious experience of the tree to hang between your body and the tree, or be in the tree?

What about your experience of remembering the tree, or imagining a fantasy tree?
People experience thought in solitary confinement or sensory deprivation. A blind person can visualise, a deaf person can imagine sounds. There is surely something local to the skull that is crucial to consciousness.

If you are imagining a tree then there is no tree in the system. There is no problem with this. Consider that imagining a tree is an entirely different thing from seeing one. Meditate on this a bit and you will see the mistake that is being made.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#576  Postby SpeedOfSound » Apr 29, 2014 1:19 pm

We have a brain B and a tree T. Then we have an imagined tree t' .
The mistake is in thinking that t' is anything at all like T. A substitution is made in the idea of representation that is sort of a category error. It requires a bit of detail to show this and my detailing things along timelines has not been well received around here. So...
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#577  Postby GrahamH » Apr 29, 2014 1:32 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:We have a brain B and a tree T. Then we have an imagined tree t' .
The mistake is in thinking that t' is anything at all like T. A substitution is made in the idea of representation that is sort of a category error. It requires a bit of detail to show this and my detailing things along timelines has not been well received around here. So...


An imagined tree is certainly different to a perceived tree, but there is something alike about the two. Besides, consciousness is about more than sensory experience or imagination. We are concious of thoughts about things not present. We invent non-literal stories. I don;t think we could do any of these things without having developed in a world of rich sensory input, and I'm against naive notions of representationalism, but moving C outside the body seems unjustified and straying into panpsychism or quantum consciousness woo. OTOH, localising C too much, into some particular little conscious bit or feedback loop also seems to be an error.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#578  Postby SpeedOfSound » Apr 29, 2014 1:39 pm

GrahamH wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:We have a brain B and a tree T. Then we have an imagined tree t' .
The mistake is in thinking that t' is anything at all like T. A substitution is made in the idea of representation that is sort of a category error. It requires a bit of detail to show this and my detailing things along timelines has not been well received around here. So...


An imagined tree is certainly different to a perceived tree, but there is something alike about the two. Besides, consciousness is about more than sensory experience or imagination. We are concious of thoughts about things not present. We invent non-literal stories. I don;t think we could do any of these things without having developed in a world of rich sensory input, and I'm against naive notions of representationalism, but moving C outside the body seems unjustified and straying into panpsychism or quantum consciousness woo. OTOH, localising C too much, into some particular little conscious bit or feedback loop also seems to be an error.


Not moving from one location to another! Rather, not assigning location at all. Being agnostic about the where's and the what's of your mind. Except of course to say that it is in this locale in the universe.

Now this moves us away from the NCC and towards something very different. A new question is framed after discarding the old. Instead of where and what is consciousness we now look for what system is active for some particular slice of time in our mental life. Contents rather then generalization.

What makes you so sure your mind is 'in' your brain?
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#579  Postby SpeedOfSound » Apr 29, 2014 1:48 pm

GrahamH wrote:...but moving C outside the body seems unjustified and straying into panpsychism or quantum consciousness woo. OTOH, localising C too much, into some particular little conscious bit or feedback loop also seems to be an error.


Yes. It is an error to try and locate it anywhere. The panpsych woo makes the same mistake as representation.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#580  Postby GrahamH » Apr 29, 2014 2:02 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:What makes you so sure your mind is 'in' your brain?


I don't think 'my mind is in my brain'. You may have noticed in numerous of my posts that the idea that makes most sense to me at the moment is that my mind is an information construct modelled and understood by my brain, By that account I could say my mind is not thing and doesn't have a location, but the work to model it and interpret it is work done by my brain.
By analogy, I would not say that a VR game world exists 'in my computer' nor 'outside my computer' nor 'not in my computer', but it is formed by activity in my computer.

So we agree, to a point - not assigning location at all to mind.

What's located in my head is not mind but it attributes mind to 'in my head'.
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