Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#521  Postby CharlieM » Apr 26, 2014 1:10 pm

Rumraket wrote:
CharlieM wrote:And he was firmly convinced that the question of consciousness is much more than an abstruse epistemological dilemma, for:

Barfield:
If civilization is to be saved, people must come more and more to realize that our consciousness is not something spatially enclosed in the skin or in the skull or in the brain; that it is not only our inside, but the inside of the world as a whole.

If civilization is to be saved? From what?

From itself. He was writing this at a time when the cold war was in full swing (1963) and nuclear weapons were prominent in the minds of people.

Rumraket wrote:This guy's incoherent Deepity Chopstick-like pseudophilosophical ramblings?

Why am I not surprised to see you impressed by this kind of gobbledygook. :crazy:


Why am I not surprised that you would dismiss him so readily :tongue: ;)
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#522  Postby kennyc » Apr 26, 2014 1:22 pm

GrahamH wrote:
CharlieM wrote:More relevant Barfield quotes:
Barfield dismisses the epigenetic approach to brain/mind that arises under the sway of the brain-physical conception as logically indefensible:

In so far as you insist on talking about the brain instead of the mind… the series of brains, observing and observed, is rather like the procession of oozlem birds. Each bird consumes the one behind it. But how do you deal with the last bird in the procession, or how does it deal with itself?

…if you start from the brain and say it “constructs” the world it is aware of, you seem to leave out of account the fact that the brain as an object of observation is itself part of a world which you yourself have constructed. Surely you have got to start with the art of construction and not with the brain! (Worlds Apart 56)


Nobody thinks that brains construct worlds. If brains are parts of a physical world then they construct views of the world, not the world.

You really are in the wrong forum with this. Try Philosophy.

.....



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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#523  Postby Rumraket » Apr 26, 2014 2:04 pm

CharlieM wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
CharlieM wrote:And he was firmly convinced that the question of consciousness is much more than an abstruse epistemological dilemma, for:

Barfield:
If civilization is to be saved, people must come more and more to realize that our consciousness is not something spatially enclosed in the skin or in the skull or in the brain; that it is not only our inside, but the inside of the world as a whole.

If civilization is to be saved? From what?
From itself. He was writing this at a time when the cold war was in full swing (1963) and nuclear weapons were prominent in the minds of people.

Heh, and pseudophilosophical speculations about the nature of consciousness would save civilization from nuclear annihiltion. Somehow that doesn't seem likely.

CharlieM wrote:
Rumraket wrote:This guy's incoherent Deepity Chopstick-like pseudophilosophical ramblings?

Why am I not surprised to see you impressed by this kind of gobbledygook. :crazy:

Why am I not surprised that you would dismiss him so readily :tongue: ;)
Because I'm generally not taken in by baseless wibble? :ask:
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#524  Postby CharlieM » Apr 26, 2014 3:01 pm

GrahamH wrote:
CharlieM wrote:More relevant Barfield quotes:
Barfield dismisses the epigenetic approach to brain/mind that arises under the sway of the brain-physical conception as logically indefensible:

In so far as you insist on talking about the brain instead of the mind… the series of brains, observing and observed, is rather like the procession of oozlem birds. Each bird consumes the one behind it. But how do you deal with the last bird in the procession, or how does it deal with itself?

…if you start from the brain and say it “constructs” the world it is aware of, you seem to leave out of account the fact that the brain as an object of observation is itself part of a world which you yourself have constructed. Surely you have got to start with the art of construction and not with the brain! (Worlds Apart 56)


Nobody thinks that brains construct worlds. If brains are parts of a physical world then they construct views of the world, not the world.

But that's the whole point. The physical world is a construct of the brain. Without the thinking brain our senses would be a jumbled confusion. Human thinking connects our sense impressions and presents us with the world of our experience. But the world that we experience is not the same as that experienced by, say, an ancient Indian, and neither are the same as the real world according to physicists, a world without colour or sound and where everything is in constant motion and nothing touches anything else.

GrahamH wrote:You really are in the wrong forum with this. Try Philosophy.

How do you expect us to have a reasonable discussion about Kaku's video without delving into a bit of philosophy?

GrahamH wrote:
Brain-physical thinking fails to account for the very self-referentiality that makes the hypothesis of the brain-physical possible in the first place, as Barfield, his impatience apparent, demonstrates:

Utter backward nonsense.
If you start with Idealist assumption then you create this sort of nonsense about physicalism.

Barfield is not starting with Idealist assumptions, he is starting with human thinking. You cannot know that there is a physical brain without being able to think. We do not say, "My brain thinks it is cold out so I will put a jacket on", we say, "I think its cold...". It would be unjustified to start out with the assumption that the "I" that I directly experience is equivalent to the brain inside my head. This would be a conclusion and not a starting point.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#525  Postby CharlieM » Apr 26, 2014 3:06 pm

GrahamH wrote:
CharlieM wrote:Because if you start with the physical brain as the source then you sart with an unjustified assumption. This is why Descartes tried to strip everything away that caused him to doubt so that he could begin at a fundamental starting point.


It is unjustified to assume access to a 'fundamental starting point'.
If we start from a physical brain then Descartes was wrong.


We don't have to assume access to thinking, I would hope that we all have access to it.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#526  Postby CharlieM » Apr 26, 2014 3:10 pm

kennyc wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
CharlieM wrote:More relevant Barfield quotes:
Barfield dismisses the epigenetic approach to brain/mind that arises under the sway of the brain-physical conception as logically indefensible:



Nobody thinks that brains construct worlds. If brains are parts of a physical world then they construct views of the world, not the world.

You really are in the wrong forum with this. Try Philosophy.

.....



Exactly!


I can't see how anyone can discuss conscious thermostats without it being philosophical.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#527  Postby kennyc » Apr 26, 2014 3:17 pm

CharlieM wrote:...
How do you expect us to have a reasonable discussion about Kaku's video without delving into a bit of philosophy?
......



Quite easily thank you. Now take your philosophy and stick it where the sun don't shine!
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#528  Postby kennyc » Apr 26, 2014 3:19 pm

CharlieM wrote:
kennyc wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
CharlieM wrote:More relevant Barfield quotes:


Nobody thinks that brains construct worlds. If brains are parts of a physical world then they construct views of the world, not the world.

You really are in the wrong forum with this. Try Philosophy.

.....



Exactly!


I can't see how anyone can discuss conscious thermostats without it being philosophical.


It's all about science Charlie, take your philosophy to the appropriate forum. If you want to discuss cognitive science be my guest, but I'm going to continue to give you grief for bringing up non-scientific bullshit every time you do it.

Let my repeat once more THIS IS NOT THE PHILOSOPHY SUBFORUM!
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#529  Postby GrahamH » Apr 26, 2014 3:38 pm

CharlieM wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
CharlieM wrote:More relevant Barfield quotes:
Barfield dismisses the epigenetic approach to brain/mind that arises under the sway of the brain-physical conception as logically indefensible:



Nobody thinks that brains construct worlds. If brains are parts of a physical world then they construct views of the world, not the world.

But that's the whole point. The physical world is a construct of the brain.

Nonsense. An Idealist thinks the physical world and brain are constructs of a mind, but a physicalist doesn't think the physical world is a construct of the brain. It could be that the mind is an 'information construct' (model) made by the brain.
The two metaphysical positions are more or less mirror images of one another.

If you want to argue this point take it to Philosophy forum.

I can't see how anyone can discuss conscious thermostats without it being philosophical.


You have a point there.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#530  Postby kennyc » Apr 26, 2014 3:56 pm

GrahamH wrote:....
I can't see how anyone can discuss conscious thermostats without it being philosophical.


You have a point there.



Uh.....that's what the entire thread is about. And we've been over it several times, certain people just don't seem to comprehend the true issue.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#531  Postby GrahamH » Apr 26, 2014 4:22 pm

kennyc wrote:Uh.....that's what the entire thread is about. And we've been over it several times, certain people just don't seem to comprehend the true issue.


The topic is Quantified Consciousness. Arbitrarily* assigning '1 unit of consciousness' to a thermostat is not a measurement of consciousness. It's just a bit of silliness in an otherwise reasonable bit about consciousness as 'models'.


* Arbitrary, because he could have assigned '1 unit of consciousness' to any part of a thermostat, where A affects b affects A, as in any physical interaction.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#532  Postby kennyc » Apr 26, 2014 4:27 pm

See!
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#533  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 26, 2014 4:36 pm

Kenny watch out big red letters is good for a ban these days.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#534  Postby zoon » Apr 26, 2014 5:54 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:You just said what amounts to: the only evidence we have of consciousness is our intuition about what is conscious. Now if some people have an intuition that a thermostat is conscious and some don't then your evidence is gone. This is the problem!

Turning that to cogito we want to call it evidence that you and I are convinced that we ourselves are conscious. Here we have evidence that we cannot both observe but we can observe each other talking about our private beetle in a box. Intuitively.

But now surely you can see that we never actually see our own beetle in a box from the perspective that would allow us to say 'I see it now'.

I am not convinced that I am conscious, though the intuition that I am is certainly powerful.

Evidence does come down to intuitions, and intuitions can contradict each other. I think my intuition that I am conscious, that is, that I am an essentially unitary self with essentially private thoughts, is a mistaken intuition. I think (though I could be wrong) that if I could understand the mechanisms of my brain and other people’s brains I would not have any intuition that I or others have awareness as well as those mechanisms. The intuitions of folk psychology contradict the intuitions of science.

At present, the intuition that people have awareness is useful for practical purposes, because the pre-scientific evolved processes of Theory of Mind (which give us that intuition) are still the best way we have of predicting other people. If we could fully understand our brain mechanisms using the intuitions which lead to scientific understanding, we would have better, more accurate predictions, and the idea that anything has awareness would become redundant. I think that if we had the god’s-eye view of ourselves as mechanisms, we would lose the intuition that we are conscious.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#535  Postby zoon » Apr 26, 2014 5:54 pm

kennyc wrote:Awareness is typically associated with and said to apply to living things. Laws of physical and chemical interaction -- processes which follow those laws and interact accordingly are not typically said to be aware, but in a manner of speaking they are in the same way very low level awareness of living things are (such as viruses, cells, bacteria, etc). After all the lowest level processes of living things are really nothing more that chemicals following the laws of physics. Awareness is built upon that base in living things and through evolution become higher level awareness, consciousness and self consciousness.

Would you grant an extremely low level of awareness to, for example, a molecule of water?
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#536  Postby kennyc » Apr 26, 2014 6:24 pm

zoon wrote:
kennyc wrote:Awareness is typically associated with and said to apply to living things. Laws of physical and chemical interaction -- processes which follow those laws and interact accordingly are not typically said to be aware, but in a manner of speaking they are in the same way very low level awareness of living things are (such as viruses, cells, bacteria, etc). After all the lowest level processes of living things are really nothing more that chemicals following the laws of physics. Awareness is built upon that base in living things and through evolution become higher level awareness, consciousness and self consciousness.

Would you grant an extremely low level of awareness to, for example, a molecule of water?


I don't think I quite said that, but certainly the molecule of water follows the laws of physics and it is upon those laws that the mechanisms we consider life are built. If I had to draw as precise a line as possible I'd say that yes even the simplest form of life has awareness -- it is an inherent part of 'being' alive. The problem with drawing the line comes with things like viruses, which really can't reproduce without using other living things......so are they alive? are they aware? difficult to say, but they certainly are capable of 'seeking out' the environment needed to reproduce themselves....still....it gets very muddy at that lowest level of defining life vs non-life.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#537  Postby DavidMcC » Apr 26, 2014 7:39 pm

kennyc wrote:
zoon wrote:
kennyc wrote:Awareness is typically associated with and said to apply to living things. Laws of physical and chemical interaction -- processes which follow those laws and interact accordingly are not typically said to be aware, but in a manner of speaking they are in the same way very low level awareness of living things are (such as viruses, cells, bacteria, etc). After all the lowest level processes of living things are really nothing more that chemicals following the laws of physics. Awareness is built upon that base in living things and through evolution become higher level awareness, consciousness and self consciousness.

Would you grant an extremely low level of awareness to, for example, a molecule of water?


I don't think I quite said that, but certainly the molecule of water follows the laws of physics and it is upon those laws that the mechanisms we consider life are built. If I had to draw as precise a line as possible I'd say that yes even the simplest form of life has awareness -- it is an inherent part of 'being' alive. The problem with drawing the line comes with things like viruses, which really can't reproduce without using other living things......so are they alive? are they aware? difficult to say, but they certainly are capable of 'seeking out' the environment needed to reproduce themselves....still....it gets very muddy at that lowest level of defining life vs non-life.

Awareness and C are surely an emergent properties of brains. As viruses do not have a brain to be made aware of stimuli, I don't see how a virus can be aware of anything.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#538  Postby zoon » Apr 26, 2014 9:22 pm

kennyc wrote:
zoon wrote:Would you grant an extremely low level of awareness to, for example, a molecule of water?


I don't think I quite said that, but certainly the molecule of water follows the laws of physics and it is upon those laws that the mechanisms we consider life are built. If I had to draw as precise a line as possible I'd say that yes even the simplest form of life has awareness -- it is an inherent part of 'being' alive. The problem with drawing the line comes with things like viruses, which really can't reproduce without using other living things......so are they alive? are they aware? difficult to say, but they certainly are capable of 'seeking out' the environment needed to reproduce themselves....still....it gets very muddy at that lowest level of defining life vs non-life.

In the OP you appeared to agree with Michio Kaku that a thermostat has some awareness, would you argue that thermostats have more in common with definitely living things than viruses do?

A separate question: leaving aside any question of what does or does not actually have consciousness/ awareness, would you agree with Graziano (as I read him in the book Consciousness and the Social Brain) that the explicit attribution of consciousness to others or to self is a trait which depends on the social mechanisms of Theory of Mind?

Quoting from Consciousness and the Social Brain (I don’t know what page, it’s 28% through the book on my Kindle):
Michael Graziano wrote:Now consider Abel, whose machinery for social perception constructs a model of Bill’s mind. This type of model-building is called “theory of mind”. Abel constructs a theory of Bill’s mind. …..Abel’s model of Bill’s attention includes the following three complex chunks of information. First, awareness is present. Second, the awareness originates from Bill. Third, the awareness is directed toward the cup. These properties – the property of awareness and its source and target – are bound together into a representation in Abel’s brain.

In this formulation, Bill’s visual attention is an event in the world to be perceived, and awareness is the perceptual counterpart to it constructed by Abel’s social machinery. ……..The perceptual model is schematic, implausible from the point of view of physics, but useful for keeping track of Bill’s state and therefore for helping to predict Bill’s behaviour. As in all perception, the perceptual model of awareness is useful rather than accurate.

Consider now the modified situation in which Abel and Bill are the same person. We are always in a social context because we always perceive and interact with ourselves. Abel/Bill focuses visual attention on the coffee cup. Abel/Bill also constructs a model of the attentional process. The model includes the following complex chunks of information: awareness is present, the awareness emanates from me, the awareness is directed at the cup.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#539  Postby kennyc » Apr 26, 2014 9:47 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
kennyc wrote:
zoon wrote:
kennyc wrote:Awareness is typically associated with and said to apply to living things. Laws of physical and chemical interaction -- processes which follow those laws and interact accordingly are not typically said to be aware, but in a manner of speaking they are in the same way very low level awareness of living things are (such as viruses, cells, bacteria, etc). After all the lowest level processes of living things are really nothing more that chemicals following the laws of physics. Awareness is built upon that base in living things and through evolution become higher level awareness, consciousness and self consciousness.

Would you grant an extremely low level of awareness to, for example, a molecule of water?


I don't think I quite said that, but certainly the molecule of water follows the laws of physics and it is upon those laws that the mechanisms we consider life are built. If I had to draw as precise a line as possible I'd say that yes even the simplest form of life has awareness -- it is an inherent part of 'being' alive. The problem with drawing the line comes with things like viruses, which really can't reproduce without using other living things......so are they alive? are they aware? difficult to say, but they certainly are capable of 'seeking out' the environment needed to reproduce themselves....still....it gets very muddy at that lowest level of defining life vs non-life.

Awareness and C are surely an emergent properties of brains. As viruses do not have a brain to be made aware of stimuli, I don't see how a virus can be aware of anything.


Now you are making the claim that awareness requires a brain. I don't think that is the case.
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Re: Quantified Consciousness - Michio Kaku

#540  Postby GrahamH » Apr 26, 2014 9:57 pm

kennyc wrote:Now you are making the claim that awareness requires a brain. I don't think that is the case.


Perhaps you can remind us of your particular definition of awareness.
It is unclear at this stage if you think thermostats have it, or if it's part of a definition of life, or whether 'feedback' = awareness.
Please clarify.
Why do you think that?
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