Fallible wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

z8000783 wrote:

Well, that's all the advise I had to give really. Talking to god is an act of belief. So you just do it, and see where it leads you.
Rather than giving advise perhaps you could tell something about your experience to help us understand.

John

They were nothing remotely spectacular. Just insights into myself that made life easier for me.

So you had a perfectly normal everday experience that believer and non-believer alike have all the time, and have decided that this was from God. You thought, apparently, that adding another layer of complexity to your experience helped you somehow. Good for you. Once again, that is because you interpreted your mundane experience a certain way, and you interpreted it that way and no other due to your already existing belief. That means everyone can do it how?

And I can believe insights into Michael would be nothing remotely spectacular, as he says.

That's uncalled for.

John

Hey come on now, let's keep the blows above the equator.

Yes that didn't really help did it. What was I thinking?

Sorry Michael, it was a very cheap shot.

Fallible wrote:So you had a perfectly normal everday experience that believer and non-believer alike have all the time, and have decided that this was from God. You thought, apparently, that adding another layer of complexity to your experience helped you somehow. Good for you. Once again, that is because you interpreted your mundane experience a certain way, and you interpreted it that way and no other due to your already existing belief. That means everyone can do it how?

You're right that this does not answer the question of the OP "can anyone believe in God?"

To return to this question... even if you have a hard time believing that god is real, you can still talk to god (i.e. pray), which is an act of belief. The moment you pray, you are believing in god.

michael^3 wrote:

Fallible wrote:So you had a perfectly normal everday experience that believer and non-believer alike have all the time, and have decided that this was from God. You thought, apparently, that adding another layer of complexity to your experience helped you somehow. Good for you. Once again, that is because you interpreted your mundane experience a certain way, and you interpreted it that way and no other due to your already existing belief. That means everyone can do it how?

You're right that this does not answer the question of the OP "can anyone believe in God?"

To return to this question... even if you have a hard time believing that god is real, you can still talk to god (i.e. pray), which is an act of belief. The moment you pray, you are believing in god.

I see. So even if you cannot believe, you just believe. Thank you for that gem, michael.

Fallible wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

Fallible wrote:So you had a perfectly normal everday experience that believer and non-believer alike have all the time, and have decided that this was from God. You thought, apparently, that adding another layer of complexity to your experience helped you somehow. Good for you. Once again, that is because you interpreted your mundane experience a certain way, and you interpreted it that way and no other due to your already existing belief. That means everyone can do it how?

You're right that this does not answer the question of the OP "can anyone believe in God?"

To return to this question... even if you have a hard time believing that god is real, you can still talk to god (i.e. pray), which is an act of belief. The moment you pray, you are believing in god.

I see. So even if you cannot believe, you just believe. Thank you for that gem, michael.

You can pray as surely as you can push a chair or recite a poem. It's an action.

michael^3 wrote:... The moment you pray, you are believing in god.

Er, not quite. For instance, I might choose to act as if I believed, as an experiment to see whether one or other claim about the power of prayer was justified. For instance, if a believer told me that prayer was always answered, and that if I called on God, he would answer, I might try it out of curiosity, without any belief beforehand.

michael^3 wrote:You can pray as surely as you can push a chair or recite a poem. It's an action.

That does not demonstrate belief, just wishful thinking.

I can watch a penalty kick being taken in a rugby match and utter under my breath "please go in", but I'm not uttering a prayer to any sort of god, just hope for the desired outcome. It doesn't indicate any form of belief on my part that some omnipotent 'thing' is going to move the trajectory of the ball to achieve the desired result.

michael^3 wrote:

Fallible wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

You're right that this does not answer the question of the OP "can anyone believe in God?"

To return to this question... even if you have a hard time believing that god is real, you can still talk to god (i.e. pray), which is an act of belief. The moment you pray, you are believing in god.

I see. So even if you cannot believe, you just believe. Thank you for that gem, michael.

You can pray as surely as you can push a chair or recite a poem. It's an action.

But you said that when you pray you believe in God. So what you are saying is that if you cannot believe in God, just believe in God.

Of course this is aside from the fact that prayer is not belief in a god. It's just another word for contemplation, meditation and so on, and anyone, whether believer or not, can do it. It is simply that pesky ole interpretation of yours which has prayer pinned as something with a specific meaning which requires a pre-existing belief in God.

Fallible wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

Fallible wrote:

I see. So even if you cannot believe, you just believe. Thank you for that gem, michael.

You can pray as surely as you can push a chair or recite a poem. It's an action.

But you said that when you pray you believe in God. So what you are saying is that if you cannot believe in God, just believe in God.

Of course this is aside from the fact that prayer is not belief in a god. It's just another word for contemplation, meditation and so on, and anyone, whether believer or not, can do it. It is simply that pesky ole interpretation of yours which has prayer pinned as something with a specific meaning which requires a pre-existing belief in God.

Is there anything else you can pray to, except god?

I am still not clear if you are saying that every realisation you have is due to God communicating with you or do you have some of your own?

John

michael^3 wrote:

Fallible wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

You can pray as surely as you can push a chair or recite a poem. It's an action.

But you said that when you pray you believe in God. So what you are saying is that if you cannot believe in God, just believe in God.

Of course this is aside from the fact that prayer is not belief in a god. It's just another word for contemplation, meditation and so on, and anyone, whether believer or not, can do it. It is simply that pesky ole interpretation of yours which has prayer pinned as something with a specific meaning which requires a pre-existing belief in God.

Is there anything else you can pray to, except god?

Sure there is.

Thousands of other gods and guardian animal spirits.

Of course, praying to any of those, including your specific god, will have the same result. NOTHING. If the troubled person manages to sort out their problems, however, they will likely convince themselves that their prayers were answered, and instead of patting themselves on the back and getting some self-esteem, they grovel on their knees some more, and revel in make-belief and the comforting fantasy that supposed maker of the universe cares about their personal life (when millions of children die from famine and disease).

It's interesting how such beliefs make one both arrogant (arrogant enough to think they're so important in the eyes of a supposed creator), but still pathetic enough to plead for favors at the same time. Go figure.

z8000783 wrote:I am still not clear if you are saying that every realisation you have is due to God communicating with you or do you have some of your own?

John

What does it mean to have "your own" realisation. Do you compute them, or do they happen to you? I am not sure about this.

michael^3 wrote:Is there anything else you can pray to, except god?

I thought I'd answered that, two posts before you asked it.

michael^3 wrote:

Fallible wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

You can pray as surely as you can push a chair or recite a poem. It's an action.

But you said that when you pray you believe in God. So what you are saying is that if you cannot believe in God, just believe in God.

Of course this is aside from the fact that prayer is not belief in a god. It's just another word for contemplation, meditation and so on, and anyone, whether believer or not, can do it. It is simply that pesky ole interpretation of yours which has prayer pinned as something with a specific meaning which requires a pre-existing belief in God.

Is there anything else you can pray to, except god?

We're back to your interpretation again. You think prayer involves appealing to a creator being because that is what you already believe. 'Prayer' is essentially the same as meditation or contemplation or wishing on a fucking star. Any 'answers' that you receive are interpreted by you to come from God, but the reality is probably that you came up with them yourself. So unless we all believe as you do, what you say prayer is has no bearing on anything.

michael^3 wrote:

z8000783 wrote:I am still not clear if you are saying that every realisation you have is due to God communicating with you or do you have some of your own?

John

What does it mean to have "your own" realisation. Do you compute them, or do they happen to you? I am not sure about this.

Perhaps when you answer his question, he will answer yours.

michael^3 wrote:

z8000783 wrote:I am still not clear if you are saying that every realisation you have is due to God communicating with you or do you have some of your own?

John

What does it mean to have "your own" realisation. Do you compute them, or do they happen to you? I am not sure about this.

You said earlier that when you have insights then that was God communicating with you. I was asking you if, every time you have some sort of insight, whatever that may mean to you then, that was down to God or whether there were occasions when you have insights, as we all do at some time or another, and it was not due to God talking to you?

Hope that's clear now.

John

Paul wrote:

michael^3 wrote:You can pray as surely as you can push a chair or recite a poem. It's an action.

That does not demonstrate belief, just wishful thinking.

I can watch a penalty kick being taken in a rugby match and utter under my breath "please go in", but I'm not uttering a prayer to any sort of god, just hope for the desired outcome. It doesn't indicate any form of belief on my part that some omnipotent 'thing' is going to move the trajectory of the ball to achieve the desired result.

Can you imagine how exasperated god sometimes becomes when he sees all those prayers come in for totally stupid things like rugby scores?