sennekuyl wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

I believe, but this is just a belief so please don't shoot me for it, that if you ask god earnestly about the questions that really bother you, he will set up circumstances that enable you to have the insight that you want.

I did what you suggest for nearly a decade. Passionately. I was horrified at how nonchalant Christians were about the effects the "world" (understanding it to be sinful) had on Christianity. I fought it endlessly as best I could in my sphere of influence.

How long should I have waited? Or should I take comfort that my prayerful questions seemed to lead me to the answers eventually ending them by becoming an atheist, is what God wanted me to understand?

You are the sole expert of your own life, I can't know this.

The longer I am in this thread, the more I'm beginning to think that I should have shut up. Everyone's experiences and expectations are different, so any kind of advice seems pretty much useless.

As I see it now, there was no God to answer so my questions were meaningless.

Animavore wrote:What an odd turn this thread has taken. I certainly wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition.

Noooooooo body expects the Spanish inquisition.

michael^3 wrote:

sennekuyl wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

I believe, but this is just a belief so please don't shoot me for it, that if you ask god earnestly about the questions that really bother you, he will set up circumstances that enable you to have the insight that you want.

I did what you suggest for nearly a decade. Passionately. I was horrified at how nonchalant Christians were about the effects the "world" (understanding it to be sinful) had on Christianity. I fought it endlessly as best I could in my sphere of influence.

How long should I have waited? Or should I take comfort that my prayerful questions seemed to lead me to the answers eventually ending them by becoming an atheist, is what God wanted me to understand?

You are the sole expert of your own life, I can't know this.

The longer I am in this thread, the more I'm beginning to think that I should have shut up. Everyone's experiences and expectations are different, so any kind of advice seems pretty much useless.

As I see it now, there was no God to answer so my questions were meaningless.

Don't take it personally... it is only the assertions that are being questioned. Sorry for meeting your assertion with my anecdote.

Why hold that belief if you can't verify it?

michael^3 wrote:Is there anything else you can pray to, except god?

A milk jug.

Try it sometime. Anybody can do it.

sennekuyl wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

sennekuyl wrote:

I did what you suggest for nearly a decade. Passionately. I was horrified at how nonchalant Christians were about the effects the "world" (understanding it to be sinful) had on Christianity. I fought it endlessly as best I could in my sphere of influence.

How long should I have waited? Or should I take comfort that my prayerful questions seemed to lead me to the answers eventually ending them by becoming an atheist, is what God wanted me to understand?

You are the sole expert of your own life, I can't know this.

The longer I am in this thread, the more I'm beginning to think that I should have shut up. Everyone's experiences and expectations are different, so any kind of advice seems pretty much useless.

As I see it now, there was no God to answer so my questions were meaningless.

Don't take it personally... it is only the assertions that are being questioned. Sorry for meeting your assertion with my anecdote.

Why hold that belief if you can't verify it?

It's nice an that.

michael^3 wrote:

To return to your original question "can everyone believe in God?", I think the answer is obviously yes. If you want to believe in God, what's going to stop you?

The lack of a compelling reason to do so.

It's really the easiest thing in the world.

I'll add my vote to the "no it isn't" response to that.

You just believe in God. Why wait until somebody comes with a proof?

For the same reason why I wait until somebody comes along with a proof for (as someone else put it) invisible space elephants.

Nebogipfel wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

To return to your original question "can everyone believe in God?", I think the answer is obviously yes. If you want to believe in God, what's going to stop you?

The lack of a compelling reason to do so.

If you WANT to believe, what better compelling reason can you have? Want is the only real compeller.

Of course, if you don't want to believe, that's not a problem either. Then just don't believe.

It's really the easiest thing in the world.

I'll add my vote to the "no it isn't" response to that.

You just believe in God. Why wait until somebody comes with a proof?

For the same reason why I wait until somebody comes along with a proof for (as someone else put it) invisible space elephants.

michael^3 wrote:

Nebogipfel wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

To return to your original question "can everyone believe in God?", I think the answer is obviously yes. If you want to believe in God, what's going to stop you?

The lack of a compelling reason to do so.

If you WANT to believe, what better compelling reason can you have? Want is the only real compeller.

Indeed want is a compeller (although analysing and assessing reality night also be a good compeller) however, assuming that beliefs are not generated on a whim (which I am sure they are in some cases), is wanting something to be true a good method for determining what is true?

Another question I have, perhaps for you if this is how your beliefs were formed, is what sort of reasons did you have for wanting God to exist?

Obviously if you came by your beliefs from a different angle then ignore this question but I would still be interested to know how YOU did it.

John

Want in a hedonistic sense, yes.

But if you want to have a modicum of integrity or desire to be true to some reasonable common principles, such as wanting to be the result to be true, fair, and reality based, wanting is not in a vacuum. I wanted to believe in God desperately, but by the principles I was raised with --- which I hinted at earlier --- if I cannot see that my desire is aligned with those simple principles I cannot believe without become a hypocrite.

sennekuyl wrote:Want in a hedonistic sense, yes.

But if you want to have a modicum of integrity or desire to be true to some reasonable common principles, such as wanting to be the result to be true, fair, and reality based, wanting is not in a vacuum. I wanted to believe in God desperately, but by the principles I was raised with --- which I hinted at earlier --- if I cannot see that my desire is aligned with those simple principles I cannot believe without become a hypocrite.

"You can if you want to" is just pushing the problem back one step, anyway.

The question simply then becomes can one choose what it is that one wants?

Can you make yourself "want" to eat gravel for breakfast if you naturally want Coco-pops instead? I don't think so.

I you can't choose what you want, and you have to want to believe in God to be able to, then the statement "everyone can believe in God" is still erroneous.

Isn't that obvious to these people??

It's not as easy as 'you can if you want to' anyway. I very much wanted to. When I arrived in this country all my friends were Christians. I used sit on the swings on a Sunday with no one to play with because they were all in church. I wanted to be the same as everybody else, but I was unable to believe it. I have always been unable to believe it, so 'you can if you want to' doesn't even begin to cover it.

I can understand a want or desire for there to be an afterlife & a god to take care of you & make everything safe. A desire or want to meet up with old friends & family who have died, to live forever & watch the cosmos unfold. I want to be able to view the whole of existence, from the birth of the universe to its end. I want to see dinosaurs. I want to see ancient Athens in all its glory. I want to walk on alien worlds, converse with alien intelligences, and get jiggy with sexy alien women. What? You mean you've never thought of that?

But wanting isn't going to make it happen. Of course, I could choose to believe it might, because I want it to. But why on earth would I want to believe in a deity that murdered most of humanity? Why would I want to believe in a god that thinks it's OK to send bears to tear apart children for taking the piss out of a slaphead? Why would I want to believe in a god that is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, but who loves the smell of burning goat flesh? FFS, there's loads of better gods to believe in, and if I want to believe in a god, why not make up my own god?

There is no choice, I was surround as a child with religion at school and some members of my family. At any stage I didn't have belief. At 8 years old when being taught the new testament when Jesus has healed a few people a cripple and a blind person. I put my hand up and said why did he heal more people? If I had super powers I would go and find hurt people like ambluances do. I was told to shut up and understand that Jesus shouldn't help everyone because of gods plan LOL.

An 8 year old child, more moral & ethically aware than Jesus. Sounds about right.

chairman bill wrote:An 8 year old child, more moral & ethically aware than Jesus. Sounds about right.

I was really into Superman at the time, so my mind was always playing games like saving people with super strength and that. I was thinking why is Superman more powerful then the son of god.

Yes, the human mind's capacity to conceive of a being greater than the god described in the bible, suggests that God cannot be God at all. If God exists, s/he isn't the one described in the bible. Maybe in a Marvel comic? Thor, anyone?

chairman bill wrote:An 8 year old child, more moral & ethically aware than Jesus. Sounds about right.

Gawd and I decided to have a separation when I was 8. That seems to be the age for religious trouble

I was in primary school when I asked my teacher 'who created god, miss'?

I don't remember where I got this from (probably the radio), but I was well impressed with the argument and wanted the teacher's thoughts. Of course all I got was 'sit down and shut up'.

As young as I was, I knew that wasn't the right answer.

Little did I know that that argument would still be kicking around 44 years later, or even that 'Sit down and shut up' remains the theists most coherent response to the problem.

chairman bill wrote:Yes, the human mind's capacity to conceive of a being greater than the god described in the bible, suggests that God cannot be God at all.

I bet M. Descartes went when that one was pointed out to him

michael^3 wrote:

Nebogipfel wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

To return to your original question "can everyone believe in God?", I think the answer is obviously yes. If you want to believe in God, what's going to stop you?

The lack of a compelling reason to do so.

If you WANT to believe, what better compelling reason can you have? Want is the only real compeller.

I want to believe that I have the physique of Arnold Schwarzenegger, the sex appeal of Brad Pitt, and the combined IQ of Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking. Given that none of these things are, alas, true, do you think simply wanting to believe it is really a compelling reason to do so?

Of course, if you don't want to believe, that's not a problem either. Then just don't believe.

The problem there is that at the end of this road lies wandering around in one's own little dream-world. I'm sure the 19th century Xhosa warriors wanted to believe that they were invulnerable to European bullets, and that sacrificing all their crops and cattle would prompt the ancestors to drive the colonists into the sea.

Unfortunately, tragically, they were mistaken.

If everyone can believe in god, then I suppose everyone can believe in homoeopathy.

Like religion, it has its 'high priests', who push it, and fight for it when it is criticized, attacking skeptics as pawns of big pharma.
Like religion. it has its 'theologians' who spout crazy pseudo-scientific technobabble in futile attempts to try to prove it works.
Like religion, it has plenty of followers around the world, who put their faith in it, mostly because they're gullible and don't know any better.

But the thing is, it's based on a concept that is bollocks and I know it's bollocks, and because I know it's bollocks, I cannot to believe in it.
It's the same with god and the afterlife. The concepts simply do not stand up to rational and rigorous scrutiny, and consequently I cannot believe in god.

talkietoaster wrote:There is no choice, I was surround as a child with religion at school and some members of my family. At any stage I didn't have belief. At 8 years old when being taught the new testament when Jesus has healed a few people a cripple and a blind person. I put my hand up and said why did he heal more people? If I had super powers I would go and find hurt people like ambluances do. I was told to shut up and understand that Jesus shouldn't help everyone because of gods plan LOL.

Exactly. Have a look at my signature.

Fred Hollows was a great man who restored sight to countless underprivileged people around the world. His foundation continues to do so after his death. Not bad for an atheist. Puts JC and his parlour tricks into perspective.