God gets exasperated? You know this?

John

z8000783 wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

z8000783 wrote:I am still not clear if you are saying that every realisation you have is due to God communicating with you or do you have some of your own?

John

What does it mean to have "your own" realisation. Do you compute them, or do they happen to you? I am not sure about this.

You said earlier that when you have insights then that was God communicating with you. I was asking you if, every time you have some sort of insight, whatever that may mean to you then, that was down to God or whether there were occasions when you have insights, as we all do at some time or another, and it was not due to God talking to you?

Hope that's clear now.

John

I believe, but this is just a belief so please don't shoot me for it, that if you ask god earnestly about the questions that really bother you, he will set up circumstances that enable you to have the insight that you want.

z8000783 wrote:God gets exasperated? You know this?

John

I know sometimes I fucking get exasperated, and right now is one of those times!

Paul wrote:

z8000783 wrote:God gets exasperated? You know this?

John

I know sometimes I fucking get exasperated, and right now is one of those times!

So I have some evidence for that then.

John

God getting exasperated...huh...it's almost like he doesn't anticipate us doing the stuff we do, almost like he doesn't know everything.

Fallible wrote:God getting exasperated...huh...it's almost like he doesn't anticipate us doing the stuff we do, almost like he doesn't know everything.

I do know everything, including the fact that I don't exist. trust me.

[Delievered though the medium of Darwinsbulldog].

michael^3 wrote:

z8000783 wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

What does it mean to have "your own" realisation. Do you compute them, or do they happen to you? I am not sure about this.

You said earlier that when you have insights then that was God communicating with you. I was asking you if, every time you have some sort of insight, whatever that may mean to you then, that was down to God or whether there were occasions when you have insights, as we all do at some time or another, and it was not due to God talking to you?

Hope that's clear now.

John

I believe, but this is just a belief so please don't shoot me for it, ...

I don't have a problem with you having a belief I am simply curious as to what your justification is for having it, that's all. Beliefs are the things that we hold to be true so I assume that like me, you don't hold your beliefs lightly or for no reason.

michael^3 wrote:... that if you ask god earnestly about the questions that really bother you, he will set up circumstances that enable you to have the insight that you want.

Fair enough that's clear however, what I was asking was whether there are occasions when you have insights that result from something you are doing but where you didn't ask God to help you?

John

z8000783 wrote:God gets exasperated? You know this?

John

Well he gets 4000 prayers for the ball to drop into the goal, and 4700 prayers for the ball not to drop into the goal. So what is god supposed to do when people ask conflicting things?

And as a result of that decision he has to make, you know that God gets exasperated?

I am really intrigued to know how you know this.

John

michael^3 wrote:

z8000783 wrote:God gets exasperated? You know this?

John

Well he gets 4000 prayers for the ball to drop into the goal, and 4700 prayers for the ball not to drop into the goal. So what is god supposed to do when people ask conflicting things?

Neither, he kills a baby and gives someone cancer. The he gives the word in a believer's ear to pogrom some rival religion. Or he just gets bored and rolls the dice. Or it could just be nature...but that is just too mundane, people need a ripping yarn.

michael^3 wrote:

z8000783 wrote:God gets exasperated? You know this?

John

Well he gets 4000 prayers for the ball to drop into the goal, and 4700 prayers for the ball not to drop into the goal. So what is god supposed to do when people ask conflicting things?

You had asked

michael^3 wrote:You can pray as surely as you can push a chair or recite a poem. It's an action.

and I gave an example of an utterance that some would call prayer and I call wishful thinking, to illustrate that a prayer does not have to be to god.

you then (in a response to Fallible) said

michael^3 wrote:Is there anything else you can pray to, except god?

so I pointed out my earlier post.

The point was, and still is, that people do things that can be called praying, without believing in gods.

Talking about god being exasperated had fuck all to do with the points being addressed and is just a crass attempt to avoid the issue. It was not "why does prayer not work" it was "prayer does not equate to belief in gods".

z8000783 wrote:

michael^3 wrote:
I believe, but this is just a belief so please don't shoot me for it, ...

I don't have a problem with you having a belief I am simply curious as to what your justification is for having it, that's all. Beliefs are the things that we hold to be true so I assume that like me, you don't hold your beliefs lightly or for no reason.

I have no evidence for God. But I enjoy believing in God, and I think that my believes have no inconsistency or evidence against them. That's basically the only apology I have to offer.

michael^3 wrote:... that if you ask god earnestly about the questions that really bother you, he will set up circumstances that enable you to have the insight that you want.

Fair enough that's clear however what I was asking was whether there are occasions when you have insights that result from something you are doing but where you didn't ask God to help you?

John

Yes of course. Atheists get insights too.

michael^3 wrote:

z8000783 wrote:

michael^3 wrote:
I believe, but this is just a belief so please don't shoot me for it, ...

I don't have a problem with you having a belief I am simply curious as to what your justification is for having it, that's all. Beliefs are the things that we hold to be true so I assume that like me, you don't hold your beliefs lightly or for no reason.

I have no evidence for God. But I enjoy believing in God, and I think that my believes have no inconsistency or evidence against them. That's basically the only apology I have to offer.

Do you have anything that justifies it though as opposed to believing that the creator of the whole universe, who can listen to and answer any one of six billion people potentially talking to him and for whom you structure your life, actually exists other than because it seems enjoyable?

John

z8000783 wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

z8000783 wrote:
I don't have a problem with you having a belief I am simply curious as to what your justification is for having it, that's all. Beliefs are the things that we hold to be true so I assume that like me, you don't hold your beliefs lightly or for no reason.

I have no evidence for God. But I enjoy believing in God, and I think that my believes have no inconsistency or evidence against them. That's basically the only apology I have to offer.

Do you have anything that justifies it though as opposed to believing that the creator of the whole universe, who can listen to and answer any one of six billion people potentially talking to him and for whom you structure your life, actually exists other than because it seems enjoyable?

John

Would you rather have me take the option that I don't enjoy? And what do I have to justify anyway? Are you the Spanish Inquisition?

What an odd turn this thread has taken. I certainly wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition.

Animavore wrote:What an odd turn this thread has taken. I certainly wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition.

looks expectingly at the door...

Is that 'no'?

michael^3 wrote:

z8000783 wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

I have no evidence for God. But I enjoy believing in God, and I think that my believes have no inconsistency or evidence against them. That's basically the only apology I have to offer.

Do you have anything that justifies it though as opposed to believing that the creator of the whole universe, who can listen to and answer any one of six billion people potentially talking to him and for whom you structure your life, actually exists other than because it seems enjoyable?

John

Would you rather have me take the option that I don't enjoy?

Are they the only choices you have for how you support the things that you think are true in the world and beyond?

michael^3 wrote:And what do I have to justify anyway?

To yourself perhaps, to ensure that the things you hold to be true are valid rather than being incorrect and if so, to find better explanations and change them.

michael^3 wrote:Are you the Spanish Inquisition?

It was a question and this is a forum, you can answer it or not answer it however you like. No one is forcing you to be here.

John

michael^3 wrote:

John wrote:

michael^3 wrote:... that if you ask god earnestly about the questions that really bother you, he will set up circumstances that enable you to have the insight that you want.

Fair enough that's clear however what I was asking was whether there are occasions when you have insights that result from something you are doing but where you didn't ask God to help you?

Yes of course. Atheists get insights too.

And does God ever provide insights for you when you haven't asked him?

John

michael^3 wrote:

I believe, but this is just a belief so please don't shoot me for it, that if you ask god earnestly about the questions that really bother you, he will set up circumstances that enable you to have the insight that you want.

I did what you suggest for nearly a decade. Passionately. I was horrified at how nonchalant Christians were about the effects the "world" (understanding it to be sinful) had on Christianity. I fought it endlessly as best I could in my sphere of influence.

How long should I have waited? Or should I take comfort that my prayerful questions seemed to lead me to the answers eventually ending them by becoming an atheist, is what God wanted me to understand? As I see it now, there was no God to answer so my questions were meaningless.