CookieJon wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

CookieJon wrote:

Thank you for appropriating the argument against belief in your god! Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, I've heard.

Why would you want to believe that one of the Abrahamic myths is real, if there are clear indications that it ain't so?

You can measure your biceps and safely conclude that is less impressive than Arnie's. This is inside the realm of science. But concerning Abrahamic myths, things are not so clear.

"safely conclude"? I beg to differ...

Perhaps the tape measure you use is a magical one that always gives false readings or something? You never can be sure... things are not always so clear, I've been told!

At the very least, a magical tape-measure is certainly more believeable than a magic-working deity/human hybrid who gives birth to himself so he can be killed and resurrected before whizzing off into outer space, wouldn't you agree?

If there is some aspect of god that you find too difficult to believe, why not simply drop that aspect?

Ahh, bespoke God is bespoke.

michael^3 wrote:If there is some aspect of god that you find too difficult to believe, why not simply drop that aspect?

I do. That is why I'm an atheist.

Fallible wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

Ok this thread has convinced me that many people are really unable to believe in god.

But even if you don't believe in god, you can always pray to god.

And..?

Still under the assumption that you want to.

Pardon?

misterB wrote:

<snip>even though it had been a great comfort and otherwise beneficial to their quality of life. I used to really want to believe too. Strangely, that didn't make it happen.

St-Augustine- I found thee not, O Lord, without, because I erred in seeking thee without that wert within. Refelct upon that. <snip>

Results of my reflection: So "God" is an entity that resides wholly as an internal construct.

OlivierK wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

z8000783 wrote:
The message you may have got from this thread is that beliefs aren't a choice we make but are as a result a primarily unconscious process of assessment.


I would imagine that amongst the emotions that would rise to the fore, embarrassment would be high on the list, if anyone were to do that.

John

Even if you can't believe in god and you can't pray to god, you can always just keep god in mind.

I don't believe in the Traffic Light God, and I don't pray to the Traffic Light God, but I do keep in mind that the Traffic Light God may turn red traffic lights green as I approach, and I'm not such a dickhead as to be ungrateful.

Is that sort of what you meant?

if traffic lights and gratefulness are your main concern, yes.

michael^3 wrote:

Fallible wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

Ok this thread has convinced me that many people are really unable to believe in god.

But even if you don't believe in god, you can always pray to god.

And..?

Still under the assumption that you want to.

So praying is like me telling the pretty girl in a screening of a movie not to go into the woods alone, or yelling abuse at a player in sport. Right. Well, that makes much more sense. Except I gave up that habit within hours of understanding the technology even though it still took another 25 years to do the same to "God".

So, michael-cubed, I'm assuming you would kiss Hank's ass?

Whether you would or not, please explain why in as much detail as you can. I think it would help me to understand your position.

Thanks.

michael^3 wrote:

CookieJon wrote:

sennekuyl wrote:Want in a hedonistic sense, yes.

But if you want to have a modicum of integrity or desire to be true to some reasonable common principles, such as wanting to be the result to be true, fair, and reality based, wanting is not in a vacuum. I wanted to believe in God desperately, but by the principles I was raised with --- which I hinted at earlier --- if I cannot see that my desire is aligned with those simple principles I cannot believe without become a hypocrite.

"You can if you want to" is just pushing the problem back one step, anyway.

The question simply then becomes can one choose what it is that one wants?

Can you make yourself "want" to eat gravel for breakfast if you naturally want Coco-pops instead? I don't think so.

I you can't choose what you want, and you have to want to believe in God to be able to, then the statement "everyone can believe in God" is still erroneous.

Isn't that obvious to these people??

Ok this thread has convinced me that many people are really unable to believe in god.

But even if you don't believe in god, you can always pray to god.

That's like telling someone they can pray to the Giant Pink Unicorn On 57th Street.

Why the fuck would anyone want to do so?

michael^3 wrote:

z8000783 wrote:
The message you may have got from this thread is that beliefs aren't a choice we make but are as a result a primarily unconscious process of assessment.

michael^3 wrote:But even if you don't believe in god, you can always pray to god.

I would imagine that amongst the emotions that would rise to the fore, embarrassment would be high on the list, if anyone were to do that.

John

Even if you can't believe in god and you can't pray to god, you can always just keep god in mind.

That's like saying "keep the Big Blue Celestial Orbiting Mind-Control Teapot in mind"

Why should I waste my time?

michael^3 wrote:

CookieJon wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

You can measure your biceps and safely conclude that is less impressive than Arnie's. This is inside the realm of science. But concerning Abrahamic myths, things are not so clear.

"safely conclude"? I beg to differ...

Perhaps the tape measure you use is a magical one that always gives false readings or something? You never can be sure... things are not always so clear, I've been told!

At the very least, a magical tape-measure is certainly more believeable than a magic-working deity/human hybrid who gives birth to himself so he can be killed and resurrected before whizzing off into outer space, wouldn't you agree?

If there is some aspect of god that you find too difficult to believe, why not simply drop that aspect?

The entire concept of a god-being is ridiculous.

If you understood evolution and science, I think you would agree.

michael^3 wrote:

z8000783 wrote:
The message you may have got from this thread is that beliefs aren't a choice we make but are as a result a primarily unconscious process of assessment.

michael^3 wrote:But even if you don't believe in god, you can always pray to god.

I would imagine that amongst the emotions that would rise to the fore, embarrassment would be high on the list, if anyone were to do that.

John

Even if you can't believe in god and you can't pray to god, you can always just keep god in mind.

Trying my best, the best point I can extract from this is that it is sometimes useful in the real world to consider abstract concepts like "perfect" (which certainly wouldn't apply to the God of the Bible) and "infinite" which are sometimes attributed to your imaginary entity. But why personify them?

Latimeria wrote:So, michael-cubed, I'm assuming you would kiss Hank's ass?

Whether you would or not, please explain why in as much detail as you can. I think it would help me to understand your position.

Thanks.

(For the lazy among us.)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDp7pkEcJVQ[/youtube]

snip, fallible

You didnt answer the question. you yourself by your own admission said that you couldnt believe because you didnt feel Gods love, well tell the posters here what you expected to feel.

We need to know what you are talking about here, or at least what you expect by Gods love.

Sort this out.


you said

This 'if you ignore God's love that's up to you' rubbish is just a massive guilt trip, attempting to pass off the fact that non-believers exist by blaming them for not accepting fairy tales as truth. I've seen nothing of God's love, I have no reason to believe it is even there,

Because if you were looking for X and Gods love is Y this makes perfect sense as to why you didnt find, feel, see gods love.

michael^3 wrote:

OlivierK wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

Even if you can't believe in god and you can't pray to god, you can always just keep god in mind.

I don't believe in the Traffic Light God, and I don't pray to the Traffic Light God, but I do keep in mind that the Traffic Light God may turn red traffic lights green as I approach, and I'm not such a dickhead as to be ungrateful.

Is that sort of what you meant?

if traffic lights and gratefulness are your main concern, yes.

Why would I leave my main concerns up to a god I don't believe in, and don't talk to? The whole point is that the Traffic Light God is a plainly fictitious explanation for why you get green lights - it's no more than a joke, and therefore most suited the the least important concerns. To entrust serious business to an entity you know not to exist is ridiculous/unwise/delusional/negligent/insane (you pick).

OlivierK wrote:... To entrust serious business to an entity you know not to exist is ridiculous/unwise/delusional/negligent/insane (you pick).

To entrust serious business to an entity you don't know to exist is equally ridiculous/unwise/delusional/negligent/insane (you pick).

misterB wrote:

snip, fallible

You didnt answer the question.

That's because you are asking the wrong person. I explained this clearly to you several times.

you yourself by your own admission said that you couldnt believe because you didnt feel Gods love, well tell the posters here what you expected to feel.

You need to read things more thoroughly. That's not what I said at all. I said I could not believe. I also said that I have seen nothing of God's love, so why should I be expected to believe it's there? Those are two separate and distinct points. I have helpfully reproduced my entire post for you further down. Perhaps you could read through it again and either quote me saying that I could not believe because I did not feel God's love, or note that nowhere in it did I say that I could not believe because I did not feel God's love.

What no one seems willing or able to answer is why I should throw my experience away and replace it with something which I have never known. You are another one who is either unable or unwilling to answer this. Instead you prefer to ignore that part of my post and ask silly questions.

We need to know what you are talking about here, or at least what you expect by Gods love.

You need to know what the person who made the claim is talking about when they refer to God's love. I do not expect anything, because I am an atheist. You have no excuse for missing that pertinent point, since I made it several times in the post you chose to entirely omit in your reply. Since the person in question claimed this love is freely available to all, they (and you if you share their belief) need to explain what they (you) mean when they (you) talk about God's love, and explain why I have seen nothing of it if it is available to anyone. The usual excuse is that I am ignoring it. This pre-supposes that I am aware of it. I am not aware of it. So please, bring something of substance to the table.

Sort this out.

I don't sort out other people's problems, sorry.

you said

This 'if you ignore God's love that's up to you' rubbish is just a massive guilt trip, attempting to pass off the fact that non-believers exist by blaming them for not acce'pting fairy tales as truth. I've seen nothing of God's love, I have no reason to believe it is even there,

Because if you were looking for X and Gods love is Y this makes perfect sense as to why you didnt find, feel, see gods love.

Please, do yourself a favour and read through your posts before you hit submit. The comment made by the believer was 'God's love is free to all. If you ignore it, that is between you and Him'. Now read back what you say:

Because if you were looking for X and Gods love is Y this makes perfect sense as to why you didnt find, feel, see gods love.

You have fundamentally misunderstood what is being claimed by the person who made that post. If I am 'looking for X' as you put it, X being what in your view I assume to be God's love, if as you acknowledge I look but do not find, how am I then ignoring it? If I am, albeit erroneously, seeking it out, actively looking for it, this is the exact opposite of what the person assumed.

Here is my entire post in context:

This is such a load of bullshit. Belief is not a choice. You can want to believe and not be able to, so much is obvious by the number of ex-Christians who did not want to lose faith, tried praying harder to God to restore it to them, but were unable to fool themselves and in the end had to face up to the fact that they could no longer hold onto belief...even though it had been a great comfort and otherwise beneficial to their quality of life. I used to really want to believe too. Strangely, that didn't make it happen. This 'if you ignore God's love that's up to you' rubbish is just a massive guilt trip, attempting to pass off the fact that non-believers exist by blaming them for not accepting fairy tales as truth. I've seen nothing of God's love, I have no reason to believe it is even there, so why should I, and how could I be expected to?

I wasn't looking exclusively for one sort of God's love, I have no concept of it, so how could I? I was open to any sign of a god, whatever that might be. There are masses of ways that an omnipotent being could find to make itself evident to someone who does not believe in it, so belief in it is not reliant on feeling its love.

You explain to me what God's love is, since you believe it exists. You should have some idea. Also you'll be helping a poor sinner-sinner like me to understand what it is I should be looking for. Your god would probably approve. So when you're ready, I'm all ears.

Now please have the courtesy to reply properly to my post asI have done with yours. Please address the points I have made instead of snipping the entire post and responding as though I never said anything.

1) Please explain how the start of my post was a 'bad start'.

2) Say you wanted to break the 100m world record but you were unable to. Is that simply a choice you made not to?

3) The fact that they lost faith BUT DIDN'T WANT TO shows that they had no say in it. The stuff about whether something is a good or bad idea seems to be irrelevant. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

4) What is your excuse for passing judgement on someone on this earth? What do you think your god would have to say about that?

You need to read things more thoroughly. That's not what I said at all.

No, you said you couldn't believe even if you tried because you didnt feel God,s love, do I need to paste this in your face once more?

I said I could not believe. I also said that I have seen nothing of God's love, so why should I be expected to believe it's there?

There you go

Those are two separate and distinct points.
No they are not, you linked them yourself.

I have helpfully reproduced my entire post for you further down.

Good, now everyone can acess that you dont really know what your own position is.

Perhaps you could read through it again and either quote me saying that I could not believe because I did not feel God's love, or note that nowhere in it did I say that I could not believe because I did not feel God's love.

You said just that, you admitted to trying to believe but being unable to because of not feeling Gods love, and not seeing any evidence that it was there, reread your post yourself, you need that.

What no one seems willing or able to answer is why I should throw my experience away and replace it with something which I have never known. You are another one who is either unable or unwilling to answer this. Instead you prefer to ignore that part of my post and ask silly questions.

what? are you still talking here about the fact you never felt God's love? this is getting fuzzier by the second.

You need to know what the person who made the claim is talking about when they refer to God's love.

I know exactly what God's love is in the christian doctrine, thats why I need you to tell us what you mean by this so we can compare concepts and see where you slipped, and ultimately show you that you had it ass-Backwards all those years.

I do not expect anything, because I am an atheist.

Atheists , as by the merriam-Webster assert their is no God, so that would be you expecting God not to exist, unless you are some kind of agnostic, or the ones that hold that wether God exists or not is irrelevant.

You have no excuse for missing that pertinent point, since I made it several times in the post you chose to entirely omit in your reply.

Since the person in question claimed this love is freely available to all,

Hee got that right, now of course this all depends on what you think God's love is as I have alredy explained.... sigh...

they (and you if you share their belief) need to explain what they (you) mean when they (you) talk about God's love, and explain why I have seen nothing of it if it is available to anyone.

Then again, what were you expecting to see, why is this so hard for you to explain to us? did you expect a shining light to come down upon you? or to hear Gods booming voice? elighten un first here.

The usual excuse is that I am ignoring it.

For the love of.... ignoring what? You dont even seem to know what God's love is. My guess is you were expecting something entirely different and were dissapointed when it never happened, but this would be because you were expecting the wrong thing! please understand this.

This pre-supposes that I am aware of it. I am not aware of it. So please, bring something of substance to the table.

Lol, was it so hard that you had no idea what god's love is? there you go, thank you. since this is that case you are in no position to say you never felt it since you dont even know what you are talking about.

Now please have the courtesy to reply properly to my post asI have done with yours. Please address the points I have made instead of snipping the entire post and responding as though I never said anything.

You have admitted to having no idea what Gods love is, kinda hard to pass a point when you have no idea what the christian God love is, in another topic i
I will sort this out as you seem to be having some important issues with this concepts, wich makes me wonder if you ever resad the bible from begining to end at all.

1) Please explain how the start of my post was a 'bad start'.

Your calling of the interlocutors position Bullshit when you obviously dont have a clue.

2) Say you wanted to break the 100m world record but you were unable to. Is that simply a choice you made not to?

This is a false comparaison, the 2 Belief, and physical effort and not comparable.

3) The fact that they lost faith BUT DIDN'T WANT TO shows that they had no say in it. The stuff about whether something is a good or bad idea seems to be irrelevant. Perhaps you could enlighten me

I should of said true or false, the fact that they lost faith does nothing for your position And this is a non sequitur The fact that they lost fate does not prove that ''they had no say in it''.

What is your excuse for passing judgement on someone on this earth? What do you think your god would have to say about that?

read what I said, I said I deplore those who do , so quit the obvious strawman. Judgement is God's alone.

michael^3 wrote:

Nebogipfel wrote:

michael^3 wrote:

If you WANT to believe, what better compelling reason can you have? Want is the only real compeller.

I want to believe that I have the physique of Arnold Schwarzenegger, the sex appeal of Brad Pitt, and the combined IQ of Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking.

Do you really want to believe that? Why would you want to believe a thing that you have the physique of Arnold Schwarzenegger, if there are clear indications that it ain't so?

Aha! The penny wobbles on the very verge of dropping!