Agrippina wrote:Thamks petwo.
Yes, on the reading thing. I'm coming to the conclusion that believers read and analyses only the main story and not the finer details. I like to compare this writing to Herodotus simply because they were written around the same time, more or less, yet the one is coherent , sequential, interesting, and fun to read while the other is just tedious, badly-written and badly translated nonsense.

The story of the Exodus for one thing is so weak, it's nothing at all like it's told in movies and in story books. I expected a magnificent piece of writing detailing the event and then it turns out to be a few verses and that's it, but almost a whole chapter on the design of the Ark of the Covenant, and no one ever questions the impossibility of a few 24-carat gold rings being able to bear the weight of it, but not only that, that the gold has to be 'pure' previously unused, and untouched, and where it came from?

Agrippina wrote: On to Leviticus next but I think I’ll relax and return to the world of sanity and realiity, IE televison.

meat must not be cooked in its mother’s milk, which explains why Jews don’t use cheease sauce with meat.

petwo wrote:

Agrippina wrote: On to Leviticus next but I think I’ll relax and return to the world of sanity and realiity, IE televison.

Remember #7....no other gods before Him

meat must not be cooked in its mother’s milk, which explains why Jews don’t use cheease sauce with meat.

Religious banquet etiquette is utterly absurd. People would rather starve than risk upsetting God. I can't even explain how stupid that notion is. It's unbelievably cruel to convince someone that this is what God wants. I'll say it again, theism is not about believing in God but believing in God's messengers (supposed). I swear I'm an atheist not because I don't believe in God but because I don't believe the people who do. The Bible, written or endorsed by theists, with its multitude of errors is proof that the scribes in this case are full of shit. It is blatantly obvious, but they tell a nice story. It's like forgetting a lie and revealing your true self. What a bizarre little world.

All the way to chapter 11, Leviticus goes on about the consecreation of Aaron and his sons and the tabernacle with lots of meat killing and ritual burning and so on. But then in Chapter 11 it gets interesting and the prohibitions make sense. What makes it interesing is that the person who wrote the rules, obviously knew something about simple hygiene and the danger of eating meat-eating animals, especially in a a very hot climate which is what the ME is. A simple rule of thumb would be to not eat animals, any land or sea animal that eats meat, to wash thoroughly after handling raw meat and to not drink water contaminated by dead animals. I suppose to instill this, they had to say that some God that will “smite” them said so.

Chapter 12 deals with childbirth. Circumcision on the 8th day and a month of “uncleanness” for a woman who has just given birth. Now while some people may say that women aren’t ‘unclean’ when they are bleeding, it makes sense. Child-bed fever kills. If a woman has sex while she is bleeding she stands a chance of contracting an infection. To tell horny men to stay away from bleeding women, it makes a lot of sense if they don’t understand how germs work, to say she is “unclean.” This is also more hygieene than cursing. I'm not going to discuss the pros and cons of circumcision here. It's not up for debate. If someone wants to fight about it,please take the fight elsewhere. This is just discussion of the laws and circumcision for whatever the reason was, was a law. It could simply have been that they knew the Egyptians did it and copied the practice from them.

Chapter 13 refers to infectious diseases. Of course they weren’t able to identify which diseases would heal and which wouldn’t so if the disease appeared to be just a minor boil or dandruff or dry scalp or acne, then the infected person was kept apart in 7 day cycles until it cleared up. This explains the huge numbers of ‘lepers’ in biblical times. Most cases probably weren’t real leprosy but could even have been hives, eczema or some other chronic skin problem. To play it safe a blanket pronouncement of leprosey was enough to keep people from causing real plagues. In some ways it makes sense.

Chapter 14 deals with the cleansing of someone who has recovered from an infectious disease and then goes on to deal with ways of dealing with buildings that are infected by mould and mildew. Interesting that these ancient people understood that a sick house can cause people to become ill.

Chapter 15 deals with matters such as premature ejaculation and women’s mensturation and persistent bleeding, a side-effect of polyps and cancer. It makes sense to say they are ‘unclean’and to force them to wash themselves and their clothes and bedding. Mere hygiene. Then goes on to institute the rites of the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) on the 10th day of the 7th month.

Chapter 16 deals with the death of Aaron’s sons, he is ordered to come to the tabernacle to recover from his mourning, and chapter 17 deals with the worship of ‘devils’ and making offerings to other deities outside of the camp. All animals killed outside the camp as sacrifice must be brought to the temple. Chapter 18 goes on about all the sex crimes, including those committed by Abraham and Moses’ father. No sleeping with anyone close to you and no animals nor homosexuality (verse 18).
A lot of this makes sense. Telling people to not have children with their close family because God said so would make sense in a society where people have large families and live close to each other., and today we know why.

Interesting about the meat after a night and o eating of leftovers. It makes sense. Again living in a hot climate cooked food would turn bad overnight, so to not get ill, simply tell them not to eat it.
It goes on about making provision for the poor and being kind to the handicapped, judging people by their worth and not the monetary vale, gossiping, picking fights, selling your daughter as a whore, vengeance, being honest in measurements and treating people who are staying with you as family.

What I do have a problem with is hybrid cattle, grain and mixed cloth. I don’t see the logic unless the ancients thought that people would create new species without God’s hand in the creation by hybridisation. I do have a problemw ith God interefering in other people sex lives and with not eating fruit until after having given the fourth year’s harvest to the priests.

Chapter 20 deals with Molech: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloch
Anyone worshipping or allowing their children to worship this Semitic god, is to be put to death by stoning. It is possible that they were in touch with people who worshipped this god, heence the direct prohibiiton. It goes on about various sins and their punishment and ends with the killing of witches. And 21, about how priests have to be perfect specimens of manhood, no blind, lame wtc, and they have to marry virgins. There seems to be some problem with people who touch the dead.
The prohibition against marrying outside the faith comes in here. If a priest’s daughter maries outside the faith, she may not eat the holy meat at the priest’s table.

Chapter 21 repeats the details of the festivals, the Sabbath, Passover, Yom Kippur and Succoth (Feast of the Tabernacles), the fast and the celebration of the harvest. Then it goes on about how to grow crops for seven years and then leave one year fallow and how after forty-nine years there should be a jubilee for living in the new land and how to take care of poor family members.

Chapter 26 is a good cop-out. God promises them peace and prosperity but then threatens how he will disperse them and make them long for home if they don’t keep his covenant. This explains Jewish guilt. They are to live peacefully and obedient and then when they are attacked and dispersed, it’s their fault because they did something wrong, thereby invoking the wrath of God. This is another indication that this was written in exile. All the guilt feelings about their various wars and the splitting of the tribes caused this to be written. And in the last chapter, a complicated description of money to be paid, for redemption, but essentially a poll tax.

angelo wrote:Mankind thinks it has superiority over any living thing below himself. Every living creature below him is fair game. It's always been like that since the year dot.
Nature is cruel. It's man eat man, and animals of all kinds, including the highly intelligent dolphins and whales are regarded as only food, nothing else.
Sorry to derail this thread, but even though I'm not a vegetarian, I hate cruelty of any kind to any animal.

johnbrandt wrote:Some interesting points there. I've also read through Leviticus and suspected parts of it might be some sort of "rule book" to advise the tribesmen how to look after themselves, but which has been written into a religious tome threatening gods wrath if they don't follow it.
It would be kind of like a doctor today being instructed at medical school to wash his hands before and after treating a patient, and when he asks "why?", he isn't given a long explanation of germs and antisepsis, but merely told "god will be angry if you don't".
If the person is rational-minded, he will find this very odd and puzzling...but if he is a firm and solid bible-thumping christian who has been brought up to believe totally in god, he might very well say "Oh, Ok, that sounds about right...I'd better do it then".

johnbrandt wrote:Of course, none of what I said excuses these leaders and teachers from, instead of saying "because God said to do it that way", actually teaching people why they should do it that way, telling them the reasoning behind it, instead of just claiming it's "gods will".

Getting onto my hand-washing doctor analogy, instead of telling him, when he asks "why" that god will be angry if he doesn't do it, sit down and take the time to tell him the science behind why he should wash his hands to keep the germs at bay.

Keeping the people stupid never made any religious leader poor though, did it...?

In biblical times, most clothing consisted of a four-cornered rectangle of cloth, direct from the loom, which was draped and fastened around the body. In modern times, people tend to wear more tailored clothing, which often does not consist of four corners. So a special four-cornered garment called a Tallit, which is somewhat like a shawl, is worn by those who want to fulfill the commandment to wear Tzitzit. The only religious significance of the Tallit is that it holds the Tzitzit on its corners. http://judaism.about.com/od/worshipritu ... t_what.htm

johnbrandt wrote:You could well be right about Semmelwiess...he was treated absolutely shamefully, and died in obscurity.

angelo wrote:We in Australia have a new PM. A woman at that. She has come out and admitted she's atheist. The morning papers and talk back radio has had a field day with the news. People calling up the radio station saying they cannot ever vote for a person who has no belief in god.
This is the state the world is in today still. A world deluded by the god virus. A people who would rather vote for some idiot who believes in the talking snake of Genesis rather than a rational thinker who will make decisions based on what is best for the country rather than if gawd approves of decisions made.

angelo wrote:We in Australia have a new PM. A woman at that. She has come out and admitted she's atheist. The morning papers and talk back radio has had a field day with the news. People calling up the radio station saying they cannot ever vote for a person who has no belief in god.
This is the state the world is in today still. A world deluded by the god virus. A people who would rather vote for some idiot who believes in the talking snake of Genesis rather than a rational thinker who will make decisions based on what is best for the country rather than if gawd approves of decisions made.