Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Harlem's getting a lot nicer.

It was the first time I recall going this year. I expected much worse, but it was the middle of the day. I'd unknowingly left my wifi hotspot on a curbstone and when I went back 20 minutes later, not expecting it to possibly be there but going through the motions, it was still there. I even got a free bus ride. So all in all, people were pretty good to me that day.

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Not sure why the "Have a nice day"s are included. That's not harassment unless the person saying it is grabbing their crotch or licking their lips or something in which case it's the sexual gesture that's problematic.

That said, I do think I'd prefer to live in a world where people can't say "Have a nice day" if it means they don't say any of the other shit either. The remarks on her appearance and telling her to smile and following her, particularly after she's made it clear she's not interested, is gross yet people think it's OK to keep doing it (and threaten to kill her for pointing it out and calling it harassment.) Ew.

Completely agree, the context of comments like "Have a nice day" does matter and if made with inappropriate physical actions (including simply trying to prevent someone walking by or around) it can be harassment.

Sadly I don't think there is any way in which harmless pleasantries can be traded for less harassment. Or at least I can't think of any law or police practice that would make a difference.

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Oh, I don't doubt for a second if she were a man or a fat woman or not white people would have been far less eager to "have a nice day" her. It's got a LOT to do with her being sexually attractive to a lot of people.

Even then, if people are reigning in their urges to nothing more than polite verbal civility it feels like that's progress enough for a happy, liberal society. The problem guys are clearly the few exceptional ones who make what seems to me to be threatening and verging on criminal behaviour. Who in their right mind follows a complete stranger for five minutes just because of the way they look? That ain't right.

When you've spent all day having "Dat ass" and "Dayum" and "Smile" directed at you alongside a slew of other remarks about your appearance and been followed after you demonstrated a lack of interest in engaging with the dudes doing it, it's easy to assume the worst from have a nice day and just think "WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU WANT? LEAVE ME ALONE!" It's too bad but the assholes ruin it for people who may sincerely want to speak to her for reasons beyond "I like what she looks like."

I'm a little confused as to why wishing someone a nice day is considered harassment. Even if the offending pleasantry is motivated by finding the person attractive.

I can't help but feel I have misunderstood something, can someone clarify?

"Have a nice day" is how one ends a verbal exchange; not how one begins it.

Seabass wrote:

Blackadder wrote:

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:
Oh, I don't doubt for a second if she were a man or a fat woman or not white people would have been far less eager to "have a nice day" her. It's got a LOT to do with her being sexually attractive to a lot of people.

Very true. And this cuts both ways. It's not just men who do this.

What is the point of this comment? Sure, technically, women do it too on occasion, but men are far worse than women when it comes to this sort of harassment, and we all know it.

Do we really? A number of commentators here have questioned whether wishing someone a nice day is harassment. Arguably it is just men being overtly nice to someone they find sexually attractive. That is not an exclusively male trait, which is the point that was being made, since you asked.

NuclMan wrote:"Have a nice day" is how one ends a verbal exchange; not how one begins it.

How about both?

trubble76 wrote:I'm a little confused as to why wishing someone a nice day is considered harassment. Even if the offending pleasantry is motivated by finding the person attractive.

I can't help but feel I have misunderstood something, can someone clarify?

The video appears to present the various comments as harassment, and the mildest of those comments (which are heavily edited down, so we can assume that they were regarded as among the clearest offenders) is "have a nice day". I think most of us are in agreement that this is in fact not harassment and therefore the claim that there were over 100 incidents of harassment is a stretch if they count such examples, even if the reaction of the woman in question is perfectly understandable, having been repeatedly harassed through the day.

trubble76 wrote:

NuclMan wrote:"Have a nice day" is how one ends a verbal exchange; not how one begins it.

How about both?

Not saying it can't, just sounds bizarre to me, where I come from at least. It's like starting a conversation off with "take care" or "see you soon".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/2 ... n&ir=Women

Catcalling Comic Illustrates Street Harassment From The Very Beginning

The comic shows the types of unsolicited comments about their appearance women receive from strangers throughout their lives, starting from "she's so cute!" as young children and escalating to sexually suggestive and aggressive comments in adulthood.

good way to illustrate the issue

<snip>

NuclMan wrote:

trubble76 wrote:

NuclMan wrote:"Have a nice day" is how one ends a verbal exchange; not how one begins it.

How about both?

Not saying it can't, just sounds bizarre to me, where I come from at least. It's like starting a conversation off with "take care" or "see you soon".

I don't understand what you are trying to get at, surely if anything, a goodbye would be less harassing than a hello where the conversation is initiated and you may be expected to reciprocate. A "have a nice day" just sounds like they are acknowledging you and trying to be nice without the need for you to do anything! Problem is in the way it is done and the perceived underlying sexual suggestions.

Blackadder wrote:

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:
Oh, I don't doubt for a second if she were a man or a fat woman or not white people would have been far less eager to "have a nice day" her. It's got a LOT to do with her being sexually attractive to a lot of people.

Very true. And this cuts both ways. It's not just men who do this.

I don't think that is necessarily a sexual thing most of the times, I think what I called the "being suited up effect" has a big part to play in this. Must be a subconscious thing that what looks cleaner, tidier and to some extent prettier/handsomer will give us some kind of comfort. I was once waiting for a bus, I must have been about 21 going to a job interview with my suit on, first and only ever time to have taken a bus with a suit on and when it arrived, everyone at the bus stop kind of made way and signalled for me to get on first. Felt very strange and never had happened to me in any other occasion while wearing everyday casual wear so I put it down to the suit!

I would say we are all culpable of this to some extent, even though we may not admit it (and may not even do it consciously), under scrutiny we may be found out to favour, and we would be more likely to offer niceties and help (Including getting up and offering our seat, etc, etc) to people that look more pleasant, more likely to be nice. The opposite may also be true where many people will feel a bit uneasy, increasingly suspicious of someone bit scruffier looking.

There are clearly too many guys in that video - and in life generally - who can't take a fucking hint. If a woman isn't interested in you, there are no sounds you can make with your mouth hole that will change that. She's. Not. Interested.

The video is an opportunity for guys to consider the position many attractive women find themselves in. To walk a mile in their shoes, almost literally. It would be quite easy to feel "under siege" in the face of such attention, even if the video does play it up a bit..

For each of these guys, this woman may well have been the first perfect stranger they tried to strike up a conversation with in the street that day, that week, month, year or ever. For the woman it's, "Oh fuck. Not another one."

"Woman harasses man in NYC, stalking him for 10 hours."

Just as a side note, what about some regions/cultures calling people "Love" or "My lovely"? It happens all the time in some places. Last time I was in Cardiff, every woman I had interaction with (not exaggerating, it was every one of them) from the receptionist in the hotel to a taxi driver and including a woman in the company I was visiting, they all called me "My lovely"!

"Are you having breakfast with us tomorrow morning? my lovely!", "Where are we going today? My lovely!". It sounded like the welsh for "sir" is "My lovely" and it was quite funny to hear with that welsh bouncy accent. I quite liked it!

And here in the northern shores of the emerald isle, a lot of people call everyone "Love". I've been called "love" myself countless times.

I understand as Rachel was saying that any nicety can tip anyone over the edge and can be hard to differentiate from all the previous abuse. But I would like to imagine that this would only be the case when unsolicited and random in the street, I don't walk about randomly wishing people "good day" but surely there is ways in which engaging with fellow human being would be OK. Its sad to see that genuine nice could be muddled with creepy!

PCS wrote:... I think what I called the "being suited up effect" has a big part to play in this. Must be a subconscious thing that what looks cleaner, tidier and to some extent prettier/handsomer will give us some kind of comfort.

Not necessarily. There's always context.

Over a decade ago I was doing a Beverage and Gaming course that I had to show up in a shirt and tie to. I teamed it with a long tweed coat that had once belonged to my gradfather. One afternoon after class, I decided to swing past a certain house wherein dwelt certain people who sold certain plant-based recreational products. They let me in laughing and told me how the household had collectively shat themselves when I'd walked up the front path. Apparently the ensemble I had chosen looked rather "offical".

Nicko wrote:

PCS wrote:... I think what I called the "being suited up effect" has a big part to play in this. Must be a subconscious thing that what looks cleaner, tidier and to some extent prettier/handsomer will give us some kind of comfort.

Not necessarily. There's always context.

Over a decade ago I was doing a Beverage and Gaming course that I had to show up in a shirt and tie to. I teamed it with a long tweed coat that had once belonged to my gradfather. One afternoon after class, I decided to swing past a certain house wherein dwelt certain people who sold certain plant-based recreational products. They let me in laughing and told me how the household had collectively shat themselves when I'd walked up the front path. Apparently the ensemble I had chosen looked rather "offical".

That is a different issue, I was talking about random niceties.

First of all lets differentiate the abuse/harassment from the random niceties and "good days"!. I am not under any circumstance condoning sexual harassment in any way. The two guys that followed her are band right out of order. EDIT: So are the many "dayms!" and "Yo hot"!!

I was addressing the specific claim that people would be less likely to say "good day" if she was fat or a man or "not white" and that "It's got a LOT to do with her being sexually attractive to a lot of people". The latter quote on the obvious harassment is patently true. You wouldn't sexually harass someone you didn't find sexually attractive. I disagree that the "good days" or random niceties are sexually motivated most of the time and offered and example. I get random "good mornings" and "Isn't the weather lovely this morning, hope it lasts" from unknown people all the time and I am not a voluptuous white blonde woman.

Your experience of looking rather "official" to someone that may look out for official people because of the nature of his chosen trade is irrelevant to my "if you look like you would be nice (nothing to do with sexuality), you will get treated nicely" point. It works both ways. A staggering, scruffy unkept man will just make mothers' hold on their childrens arm firmer. Everyone makes subconscious irrational assumptions of people based on their looks.

To assume all men have a constant hardon and everything they do is sexually motivated to the extent that they only greet and say "good day" to hot white women is just not true and very unfair.

PCS wrote:

Nicko wrote:

PCS wrote:... I think what I called the "being suited up effect" has a big part to play in this. Must be a subconscious thing that what looks cleaner, tidier and to some extent prettier/handsomer will give us some kind of comfort.

Not necessarily. There's always context.

Over a decade ago I was doing a Beverage and Gaming course that I had to show up in a shirt and tie to. I teamed it with a long tweed coat that had once belonged to my gradfather. One afternoon after class, I decided to swing past a certain house wherein dwelt certain people who sold certain plant-based recreational products. They let me in laughing and told me how the household had collectively shat themselves when I'd walked up the front path. Apparently the ensemble I had chosen looked rather "offical".

That is a different issue, I was talking about random niceties.

Yeah, a bit OT. Just something that came to mind.

PCS wrote:First of all lets differentiate the abuse/harassment from the random niceties and "good days"!. I am not under any circumstance condoning sexual harassment in any way. The two guys that followed her are band right out of order. EDIT: So are the many "dayms!" and "Yo hot"!!

I was addressing the specific claim that people would be less likely to say "good day" if she was fat or a man or "not white" and that "It's got a LOT to do with her being sexually attractive to a lot of people". The latter quote on the obvious harassment is patently true. You wouldn't sexually harass someone you didn't find sexually attractive. I disagree that the "good days" or random niceties are sexually motivated most of the time and offered and example. I get random "good mornings" and "Isn't the weather lovely this morning, hope it lasts" from unknown people all the time and I am not a voluptuous white blonde woman.

Your experience of looking rather "official" to someone that may look out for official people because of the nature of his chosen trade is irrelevant to my "if you look like you would be nice (nothing to do with sexuality), you will get treated nicely" point. It works both ways. A staggering, scruffy unkept man will just make mothers' hold on their childrens arm firmer. Everyone makes subconscious irrational assumptions of people based on their looks.

To assume all men have a constant hardon and everything they do is sexually motivated to the extent that they only greet and say "good day" to hot white women is just not true and very unfair.

I'd agree.

Another thing that comes to mind though is that the woman in the video likely experiences many instances of preferential treatment due to her appearance. From a certain point of view*, the receipt of unwanted attention is an inevitable side-effect of attracting wanted - or at least advantageous - attention.




* Clearly not the point of view of this particular woman. In case I haven't stated it clearly enough, her reaction to her subjective experience is entirely understandable.

trubble76 wrote:I'm a little confused as to why wishing someone a nice day is considered harassment. Even if the offending pleasantry is motivated by finding the person attractive.

I can't help but feel I have misunderstood something, can someone clarify?

As I've pointed out, from the perspective of the well-wisher, there's nothing wrong. From the perspective of the woman attracting this greater-than-might-be-reasonably-expected-due-to the-well-known-friendliness-of-New-Yorkers attention, it could understandably be perceived as a deluge of attention that feels like harassment.

If one, you know, lost sight of the fact that the attention one found so objectionable was composed of minor instances of unwanted attention from multiple persons rather than the sustained unwanted attention of an actual harasser.