Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

carl · **#1001** by **carl** » Dec 25, 2014 12:18 am

Nebogipfel wrote:
carl wrote:Have you ever hurt anyone else? Aren't you glad God didn't make an edict wiping out all who hurt others? I am. He is much more merciful IMHO than someone who wants hurtful people wiped out.

Tell that to the Amalekites. Who (supposedly) were wiped out by divine edict.

ok, but have you ever hurt anyone else?

carl · **#1002** by **carl** » Dec 25, 2014 12:20 am

ADParker wrote:
carl wrote:
carl wrote:Have you ever hurt anyone else? Aren't you glad God didn't make an edict wiping out all who hurt others? I am. He is much more merciful IMHO than someone who wants hurtful people wiped out.

I am no more glad that God didn't wipe people out than I'm glad that a stampede of unicorns and griffins didn't trample my vegetable garden before I got to harvest it.

Interesting that you seem to think that God is so lacking in imagination or ability to only have the two options of either allowing suffering to go on or wipe people out.

ok, but have you ever hurt anyone else? just asking.

carl · **#1003** by **carl** » Dec 25, 2014 12:28 am

ADParker wrote:
carl wrote:In fact, thousands of Christians die yearly due to persecution, most recently including crucifixion by ISIS. See Voice of the Martyrs (VOM) and many other sites for further info. I don't know if any atheist or skeptics organizations vocalize their opposition to this persecution but its been there for quite a while, especially these last few centuries.

Because no one persecutes (and slaughters...) the religious like the religious. :roll

I sense no distinction on your part between Islam and Christianity. We're all just a bunch of religious theists, right? Wow. At least some people are more discerning.

Why Nabeel Qureshi Questioned His Muslim Faith
Video: Nabeel Qureshi grew up a devout Muslim and always questioned Christians about their faith. Years later, when he saw another side of his faith, he held on to his belief but began running out of arguments.
http://www.cbn.com/tv/3945528870001

hackenslash · **#1004** by **hackenslash** » Dec 25, 2014 12:43 am

Hello, Carl. I'm really glad you survived long enough not to have been exiled prior to my own return from exile. I'm tied up over the next day or so, but I wanted to let you know:

Incoming.

carl · **#1005** by **carl** » Dec 25, 2014 1:05 am

Alan B wrote:Is carl still around?

Its Christmas time and therefore, time to spend with family, to go on vacation to see God's wonderful - and very very hi-tech creation. This is a very very interesting planet as you know - in a few days we plan on spending a week seeing snow-covered mountains, a zoo full of interesting animals created in all different shapes and sizes, maybe a cave with stalactites, and some low-tech human-engineered stuff like shops, various buildings, etc..

Who ever said God is boring.....I expect the new earth and new heaven to be much more interesting to explore though...can't wait for more...but much better!

Merry Christmas everyone! And remember, whenever we look at the date, we are using His Birthday as a reference point!

Onyx8 · **#1006** by **Onyx8** » Dec 25, 2014 1:08 am

He wasn't born in December.

Calilasseia · **#1007** by **Calilasseia** » Dec 25, 2014 1:09 am

Yawn.

Do learn the difference between conventions imposed by humans, and intrinsic properties.

Meanwhile, I'd like to see if you have any substantive response to this. Recycled apologetics don't count as a substantive response.

Thomas Eshuis · **#1008** by **Thomas Eshuis** » Dec 25, 2014 1:20 am

carl wrote:
Nebogipfel wrote:
carl wrote:Have you ever hurt anyone else? Aren't you glad God didn't make an edict wiping out all who hurt others? I am. He is much more merciful IMHO than someone who wants hurtful people wiped out.

Tell that to the Amalekites. Who (supposedly) were wiped out by divine edict.

ok, but have you ever hurt anyone else?

Thomas Eshuis · **#1009** by **Thomas Eshuis** » Dec 25, 2014 1:24 am

carl wrote:
ADParker wrote:
carl wrote:In fact, thousands of Christians die yearly due to persecution, most recently including crucifixion by ISIS. See Voice of the Martyrs (VOM) and many other sites for further info. I don't know if any atheist or skeptics organizations vocalize their opposition to this persecution but its been there for quite a while, especially these last few centuries.

Because no one persecutes (and slaughters...) the religious like the religious. :roll

I sense no distinction on your part between Islam and Christianity. We're all just a bunch of religious theists, right? Wow. At least some people are more discerning.

Why Nabeel Qureshi Questioned His Muslim Faith
Video: Nabeel Qureshi grew up a devout Muslim and always questioned Christians about their faith. Years later, when he saw another side of his faith, he held on to his belief but began running out of arguments.
http://www.cbn.com/tv/3945528870001

You do realise there's also many a Christian who's converted to Islam?
Buddhism?
Taoism?
You really think these anecdotes will convince anyone?

Thomas Eshuis · **#1010** by **Thomas Eshuis** » Dec 25, 2014 1:27 am

In case carl can't bother to watch the video I just linked, here's the text version:

Rabbi Akiba: Who led us out of Egypt?

Judge: God led us out of Egypt.

Rabbi: I have a question. Why were we in Egypt to start with?

Judge: There was a famine, so we took shelter.

Rabbi: Who sent the famine?

Judge: Well we don't know much about the famine...

Rabbi: God sent the famine. So God sent us to Egypt and God took us out of Egypt.

Judge: And later he sent us out of Babylon in order that we might...

Rabbi: And when he brought us out of Egypt, how did he do it? By words, vision, miracle?

Judge: Moses asked Pharaoh...

Rabbi: And when Pharaoh said no?

Inmate: The plagues.

Rabbi: First Moses turned the Egyptians' water to blood. Then God sent the plague of frogs; next a plague of mosquitoes; then a plague of flies. Then he slew their livestock. Next a plague of boils. Next came the hail, which battered down the crops and even the trees and structures everywhere, except in Goshen where the Israelites lived.

Judge: But still Pharaoh did not agree.

Rabbi: And so a plague of locusts, and then the days of darkness, and finally what?

Judge: God slew the firstborn of Egypt and led us out of Egypt.

Rabbi: He struck down the firstborn, from the firstborn and heir of Pharaoh to the firstborn of the slave at the mill. He slew them all. Did he slay Pharaoh?

Judge: No, I don't think so. It was later.

Rabbi: It was Pharaoh that said no, but God let him live. And slew his children instead. All the children. And then the people made their escape taking with them the gold and silver and jewelry and garments of the Egyptians. And then God drowned the soldiers who pursued them. He did not close the waters up so that the soldier could not follow. He waited until they were following and then he closed the waters. And then what?

Judge: And then the desert and ultimately the promised land.

Rabbi: No. The promised land was empty and a new place, uncultivated.

Judge: No. There were...

Rabbi: When the Lord thy God shall bring you into the promised land you shall cast out many nations before you, nations much greater and mightier than you are. You shall smite them and utterly destroy them. Make no covenant with them and show no mercy to them.

Inmate: It shows us his favor. We are his people.

Rabbi: And he gave us a king in Saul. Now when the people of Amalek fought Saul's people, what did the Lord God command? I'll ask the scholar.

Scholar: Crush Amalek and put him under the curse of destruction.

Rabbi: Was Saul to show any mercy to spare anyone?

Scholar: Do not spare...

Rabbi: Do not spare him, but kill. Kill man, woman, babe, and suckling, ox, and sheep, cattle and donkey. So Saul set out to do this and on the way he met some Kenites. Now these were not Amalek's people, he had no quarrel with them. He urged them to flee. And the Lord our God was he pleased by the mercy of Saul, by the justice of Saul?

Scholar: No. No he wasn't.

Rabbi: And when Saul decided not to slaughter all the livestock and to take it to feed his people, was God pleased with his prudence, his charity?

Scholar: No.

Rabbi: No, he was not. He said, you have rejected the word of Adonai, therefore he has rejected you as king. And then to please the Lord our God, Samuel brought forth the king Agar and hacked him to pieces before the Lord at Gilgar.

After Saul there came David who took Bathsheba the wife of Uriah the Hittite to himself after arranging to have Uriah killed -- against the wishes of God. Did God strike David for this?

Scholar: In a manner of speaking...

Rabbi: Did he strike Bathsheba?

Scholar: In the sense that when they had...

Rabbi: Adonai said, since you have sinned against me, the child will die. (Turning to the judge) You asked earlier, who would punish a child? God does.

Rabbi: Now did the child die suddenly, mercifully, without pain?

Scholar: In a...

Rabbi: Seven days. Seven days that child spent dying in pain while David wrapped himself in sack and ashes and fasted and sought to show his sorrow to God. Did God listen?

Scholar: The child died.

Rabbi: Did that child find that God was just?

Did the Amalekites think that Adonai was just?

Did the mothers of Egypt -- the mothers -- did they think that Adonai was just?

Scholar: But Adonai is our God, surely...

Rabbi: Oh, what? Did God not make the Egyptians? Did he not make their rivers and make their crops grow? If not him, then who? What? Some other God? But what did he make them for? To punish them? To starve, to frighten, to slaughter them? The people of Amalek, the people of Egypt, what was it like for them when Adonai turned against them? It was like this.

Today there was a selection, yes? When David defeated the Moabites, what did he do?

Judge: He made them lie on the ground in lines and he chose one to live and two to die.

Rabbi: We have become the Moabites. We are learning how it was for the Amalekites. They faced extinction at the hand of Adonai. They died for his purpose. They fell as we are falling. They were afraid as we are afraid. And what did they learn? They learned that Adonai, the Lord our God, our God, is not good. He is not good. He was not ever good. He was only on our side.

God is not good. At the beginning when he repented that he had made human beings and flooded the earth. Why? What had they done to deserve annihilation? What could they have done to deserve such wholesale slaughter? What could they have done that was so bad? God is not good.

When he asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, Abraham should have said no. We should have taught our God the justice that was in our hearts. We should have stood up to him. He is not good. He has simply been strong. He has simply been on our side.

When we were brought here, we were brought by train. A guard slapped my face. On their belts they had written "Got mit uns" -- God is with us. Who is to say that he is not? Perhaps he is. Is there any other explanation? What we see here: his power, his majesty, his might, all these things that turned against us. He is still God, but not our God. He has become our enemy.

That is what's happened to our covenant. He has made a new covenant with someone else.

ADParker · **#1011** by **ADParker** » Dec 25, 2014 3:23 am

carl wrote:
ADParker wrote:
carl wrote:In fact, thousands of Christians die yearly due to persecution, most recently including crucifixion by ISIS. See Voice of the Martyrs (VOM) and many other sites for further info. I don't know if any atheist or skeptics organizations vocalize their opposition to this persecution but its been there for quite a while, especially these last few centuries.

Because no one persecutes (and slaughters...) the religious like the religious. :roll

I sense no distinction on your part between Islam and Christianity.

Really? And from what did you sense that? :what:

carl wrote: We're all just a bunch of religious theists, right? Wow. At least some people are more discerning.

Um what?

carl wrote:Why Nabeel Qureshi Questioned His Muslim Faith
Video: Nabeel Qureshi grew up a devout Muslim and always questioned Christians about their faith. Years later, when he saw another side of his faith, he held on to his belief but began running out of arguments.

Relevance? :what:

ADParker · **#1012** by **ADParker** » Dec 25, 2014 3:25 am

carl wrote:
ADParker wrote:
carl wrote:
carl wrote:Have you ever hurt anyone else? Aren't you glad God didn't make an edict wiping out all who hurt others? I am. He is much more merciful IMHO than someone who wants hurtful people wiped out.

I am no more glad that God didn't wipe people out than I'm glad that a stampede of unicorns and griffins didn't trample my vegetable garden before I got to harvest it.

Interesting that you seem to think that God is so lacking in imagination or ability to only have the two options of either allowing suffering to go on or wipe people out.

ok, but have you ever hurt anyone else? just asking.

Of what possible relevance is that question?
But if you must know; yes I have hurt other people, not even remotely as many as God has though... if you believe the stories that is. :roll:

surreptitious57 · **#1013** by **surreptitious57** » Dec 25, 2014 4:19 am

carl wrote:
whenever we look at the date we are using His Birthday as a reference point

Wednesday - named after the Norse god Wodin
Thursday - named after the Norse god Thor
Friday - named after the Norse goddess Frigg
Saturday - named after the Roman god Saturn

January - named after the Roman goddess Janus
March - named after the Roman god Mars
July - named after the Roman emperor Julius
August - named after the Roman emperor Augustine
October - named after the Roman emperor Octavius

Mercury - named after the Roman god of the same name
Venus - named after the Roman goddess of the same name
Mars - named after the Roman god of the same name
Jupiter - named after the Greek god of the same name
Saturn - named after the Roman god of the same name
Uranus - named after the Greek god of the same name
Neptune - named after the Roman god of the same name

ADParker · **#1014** by **ADParker** » Dec 25, 2014 5:51 am

Added in a few

surreptitious57 wrote:
carl wrote:
whenever we look at the date we are using His Birthday as a reference point

Sunday - named after the sun, named after "sun's day": the name of a pagan Roman holiday.
Monday - named after the moon, sacred to the goddess of the moon
Tuesday - named after the Norse god Tyr
Wednesday - named after the Norse god Wodin
Thursday - named after the Norse god Thor
Friday - named after the Norse goddess Frigg
Saturday - named after the Roman god Saturn

January - named after the Roman goddess Janus
February - named fater the old-Italian god Februus
March - named after the Roman god Mars
May - possibly named after Maiesta, the Roman goddess of honor and reverence
June - named after Juno, the queen of the Roman gods
July - named after the Roman emperor Julius
August - named after the Roman emperor Augustine
September to December - named after the numbers 7 to 10 as before those emperors demanded their own months they were the 7th to 10th months of the year
October - named after the Roman emperor Octavius (attributed to him after the original coinage above)

Mercury - named after the Roman god of the same name
Venus - named after the Roman goddess of the same name
Mars - named after the Roman god of the same name
Jupiter - named after the Greek god of the same name
Saturn - named after the Roman god of the same name
Uranus - named after the Greek god of the same name
Neptune - named after the Roman god of the same name
Pluto (dwarf planet, but named after same convention) - named after the Roman god of the same name

Weaver · **#1015** by **Weaver** » Dec 25, 2014 6:26 am

ADParker wrote:
carl wrote:
ADParker wrote:
carl wrote:
I am no more glad that God didn't wipe people out than I'm glad that a stampede of unicorns and griffins didn't trample my vegetable garden before I got to harvest it.

Interesting that you seem to think that God is so lacking in imagination or ability to only have the two options of either allowing suffering to go on or wipe people out.

ok, but have you ever hurt anyone else? just asking.

Of what possible relevance is that question?
But if you must know; yes I have hurt other people, not even remotely as many as God has though... if you believe the stories that is.

So, what - if the Christian god does exist, people on the Earth are supposed to be amazingly grateful that he/she/it wasn't more of a homicidal, genocidal prick than he already was in the OT?

Worship him, because he could have been a much bigger bully?

Didn't I hear this refrain constantly in junior high school?

Sciwoman · **#1016** by **Sciwoman** » Dec 25, 2014 7:43 am

Weaver wrote:
ADParker wrote:
carl wrote:
ADParker wrote:

ok, but have you ever hurt anyone else? just asking.

Of what possible relevance is that question?
But if you must know; yes I have hurt other people, not even remotely as many as God has though... if you believe the stories that is.

So, what - if the Christian god does exist, people on the Earth are supposed to be amazingly grateful that he/she/it wasn't more of a homicidal, genocidal prick than he already was in the OT?

Worship him, because he could have been a much bigger bully?

Didn't I hear this refrain constantly in junior high school?

Sounds familiar to me too.

Calilasseia · **#1017** by **Calilasseia** » Dec 25, 2014 11:32 am

If it were not so frightening, in terms of the consequences of the underlying mindset, seeing apologetics peddled in order to try and categorise the minuscule actions of powerless human beings, as purportedly worse than the actions of an entity asserted to possess fantastic powers, would be comedy of the absurd on a grand scale. But this is what happens, when unsupported doctrinal assertions and imaginary entities are regarded as more important than real human beings, when the whims and caprices of a fabricated celestial Big Brother are treated as having priority over the welfare of actual people. We see convoluted semantic gymnastics, aimed at inverting reality, displayed before us by those who seek hegemony for their doctrines and imagined magic entities. We see entire realms of human thought, twisted and perverted to serve the doctrinal ends. We see risible excuses being invented, in an attempt to "legitimise" conduct on the part of the beloved magic entities, that would invite limitless opprobrium if said conduct was pursued by human beings. We see the endless declamation of the purported desires of the beloved magic entities, with respect to our conduct, that, as Susan B. Anthony presciently noted, are always in lockstep with the desires of those issuing the declamations. We see the theft of discoursive privileges on a grand scale, endless demands for special treatment, endless demands for special access to policy decisions, on the part of those peddling the doctrines and the purported "reality" of the magic entities, which, if those doctrines were true, and if those magic entities were real, simply would not be needed.

When, I ask myself, is this, manifestly the longest scam in human history, going to come to an end? Because that is precisely what it is - a scam, perpetrated upon our species by those seeking a comfortable, effortless life, made all the more comfortable and effortless by control over others. A scam that sees valuable resources, that would otherwise have been deployed to address real need, being squandered on gilded palaces and useless architectural symbols of power, edifices that, if the assertions of the requisite doctrines were true, should not need Earthly input at all.

For that matter, the pedlars of these doctrines should, if their doctrines were something other than fabrications of the imagination, be able to deliver all sorts of wonders, beyond the reach of the rest of us. Yet, what we find instead, is that alongside those actually working to produce real, concrete wonders, such as some I have experienced personally at the hands of dedicated and trained medical personnel, the pedlars of these doctrines and magic entities are impotent, inadequate and incompetent. Their grandiloquent pontifications, bereft of matching action, all too often stand exposed as nothing more than puffery and verbal fog. Their pretensions to privileged access to truth, wrapped in the tinsel and tissue of farcically conjured apologetic spells, wither and evaporate when subject to proper, rigorous scrutiny. Their posturings as purported possessors of special knowledge, and their demands for sovereignty over genuinely constituted intellectual disciplines, are seen as nothing more than the endless reshaping of the Play-Doh in their heads.

Yet, on this vacuous basis, the pedlars of doctrines and magic entities have claimed for themselves, not only the purported "right" to be regarded as greater in stature than our most esteemed real achievers in dozens of other fields, but also the purported "right" to act with ruthlessness and brutality to serve the ends of their doctrines. On the basis of nothing more than the glittery holograms of their imaginations, they have claimed the purported "right" to enforce conformity to their doctrines, and wield vicious executive powers, up to and including mass homicide, to keep their doctrines alive.

Am I the only one here who has grown tired of retching over the steaming hypocrisy endemic to all of this?

To the pedlars of doctrines and magic entities, all of whom have repeatedly demonstrated themselves to be equally worthless, venal, corrupt, self-serving, hubristic, noxiously hypocritical and suppuratingly dishonest, I say, begone, the lot of you. The world will be better off without your snake oil.

BlackBart · **#1018** by **BlackBart** » Dec 25, 2014 11:50 am

carl wrote:
Nebogipfel wrote:
carl wrote:Have you ever hurt anyone else? Aren't you glad God didn't make an edict wiping out all who hurt others? I am. He is much more merciful IMHO than someone who wants hurtful people wiped out.

Tell that to the Amalekites. Who (supposedly) were wiped out by divine edict.

ok, but have you ever hurt anyone else?

Aww look everyone! Carl's trying to do a Gotcha! :dopey:

Cody · **#1019** by **Cody** » Dec 25, 2014 11:56 am

Wow! What a first rate post in every way! You have perfectly reiterated my thoughts on this centuries old curse upon the world. You have done so in a much more detailed and eloquent way than I ever could. BRA :clap:

VO!!

surreptitious57 · **#1020** by **surreptitious57** » Dec 25, 2014 12:15 pm

The fact that those who claim to be in possession of an absolute truth are referencing different versions of it is proof in itself that at least most of them are deceiving others if not themselves also. And if there is actually one genuinely in possession of it then how would it be possible to objectively determine that ? Religion is of course a human invention and that is why it so varies in interpretation. Compare that to mathematics which is a human discovery and so cannot be freely interpreted. You will not get universal consensus on whether God exists or not but you will with regard to one plus one equals two. Go figure

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