thaesofereode wrote:This question contains its own answer.

We are living for the best, most wonderful life we can have here. Now. Precisely because there is no afterlife.

Arjan Dirkse wrote:What are we living for? For me the answer is simple: I live for life. Not for afterlife. I live to live a good, meaningful life. The fact that it ends does not make it worthless. Death is not some unimagineable horror that negates every good thing that happens in life.

carl wrote:

thaesofereode wrote:This question contains its own answer.

We are living for the best, most wonderful life we can have here. Now. Precisely because there is no afterlife.

The best? Like what? Let's see a list.

carl wrote:

Nebogipfel wrote:

carl wrote:

Nebogipfel wrote:

Tell that to the Amalekites. Who (supposedly) were wiped out by divine edict.

ok, but have you ever hurt anyone else?

Sure. On numerous occasions. Some of which still make me cringe when I think of them.

Likewise. I know of many many instances where I 'got away' with it. This is also why I laugh when I hear some skeptic say they 'take responsibility for their own actions'. No they don't.

carl wrote:And to follow-thru, this is precisely why I believe many of us are also offended when we read some text about God holding us accountable in the future. It's offensive to be told I will be held to account someday even though I temporarily 'got away' with it.

carl wrote:

ADParker wrote:

carl wrote:

ADParker wrote:

ok, but have you ever hurt anyone else? just asking.

Of what possible relevance is that question?
But if you must know; yes I have hurt other people, not even remotely as many as God has though... if you believe the stories that is.

Lets' look at your sense of justice: How have you 'taken responsibility' for your actions in each and every case where you hurt someone?

carl wrote:

surreptitious57 wrote:

carl wrote:
whenever we look at the date we are using His Birthday as a reference point

Wednesday - named after the Norse god Wodin
Thursday - named after the Norse god Thor
Friday - named after the Norse goddess Frigg
Saturday - named after the Roman god Saturn

January - named after the Roman goddess Janus
March - named after the Roman god Mars
July - named after the Roman emperor Julius
August - named after the Roman emperor Augustine
October - named after the Roman emperor Octavius

Mercury - named after the Roman god of the same name
Venus - named after the Roman goddess of the same name
Mars - named after the Roman god of the same name
Jupiter - named after the Greek god of the same name
Saturn - named after the Roman god of the same name
Uranus - named after the Greek god of the same name
Neptune - named after the Roman god of the same name

Just curious, are the months based on their date of birth too?

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Also why pray at all or live a devout life, if God has already decided whether you got heaven or hell.

Cody wrote:Theism holds that God gave us freewill. Right? Theists have to say this otherwise they will have to acknowledge that God is responsible for evil in the world as well as good.Freewill is the essential ingredient needed to make sense of Theism.
That having been said, there surely is no place for predestination in Theism. Freewill and predestination would be very strange bedfellows.

carl wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Also why pray at all or live a devout life, if God has already decided whether you got heaven or hell.

God decided?

1) I have free will to choose God and to be thankful for the life He gave me or...
2) I can be unthankful and spend my energies telling others He doesn't exist.

The worst thing my own child can tell someone is that his own dad doesn't even exist as far as he's concerned. Now that's pure hatred.

carl wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Also why pray at all or live a devout life, if God has already decided whether you got heaven or hell.

God decided?

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

Agrippina wrote:

RealityRules wrote:

Agrippina wrote:I had a chat with my older sister about this yesterday. She said she "fears" death, so I asked exactly what is it she "fears" about being dead, she won't know that she's dead. When we reached the end of the conversation, she felt a lot better because we figured out that it's not the idea of being dead that bothers her, it's the manner of her death: pain, suffering, indignity. Fair enough, I think most of us would like a clean death, i.e. to just die in our sleep, or drop dead while boogeying the night away with a joint in one hand and a martini in the other. It's not going to happen, we can't know the manner of our death, so why obsess about it?

I used to read the Guardian UK's Comment-is-Free Belief section a few yrs ago (when it was quite active) and there was a regular poster there who used to work in geriatric & palliative care. He said those that feared death the most were the devout Christians - they were scared stiff of what their 'afterlife' might be; and increasingly so in their last days.

Yeah that always confuses me. Why don't the deeply devout just die? Why do their families spend fortunes on medical care to keep them alive? Surely if the afterlife is what you want, you should just skip this one and shuffle off to the "better" place.

This is especially odd with Presbytarians others who believe in predestination.
Why heal/fix any illness or wound? Isn't having those what God wants/plans for you?
Why help a cow out of a ditch and mend it's broken leg, but not fix your own injuries or illnesses?
Also why pray at all or live a devout life, if God has already decided whether you got heaven or hell.

carl wrote:1) I have free will to choose God and to be thankful for the life He gave me or...

carl wrote:2) I can be unthankful and spend my energies telling others He doesn't exist.

carl wrote:The worst thing my own child can tell someone is that his own dad doesn't even exist as far as he's concerned. Now that's pure hatred.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

carl wrote:

ADParker wrote:

carl wrote:

ok, but have you ever hurt anyone else? just asking.

Of what possible relevance is that question?
But if you must know; yes I have hurt other people, not even remotely as many as God has though... if you believe the stories that is.

Lets' look at your sense of justice: How have you 'taken responsibility' for your actions in each and every case where you hurt someone?

Answer the question carl. How is this remotely relevant to the OP?

carl wrote:

Cody wrote:Theism holds that God gave us freewill. Right? Theists have to say this otherwise they will have to acknowledge that God is responsible for evil in the world as well as good.Freewill is the essential ingredient needed to make sense of Theism.
That having been said, there surely is no place for predestination in Theism. Freewill and predestination would be very strange bedfellows.

This is a mystery for theists, freewill and predestination. I do wonder about it on occasion but will have to wait until all things are revealed on that day when He returns.

carl wrote:In the meantime, do I need all of the answers to believe?

carl wrote:I am like the one who chooses to believe in the natural origin of the universe, life on earth, etc....I take it by faith in the meantime.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

carl wrote:

thaesofereode wrote:This question contains its own answer.

We are living for the best, most wonderful life we can have here. Now. Precisely because there is no afterlife.

The best? Like what? Let's see a list.

You have already been presented with a long list of things to live for, by many members of this board.
That you continue to pretend otherwise only demonstrates that you have no desire to discuss this honestly, never mind rationally.

carl wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

carl wrote:

thaesofereode wrote:This question contains its own answer.

We are living for the best, most wonderful life we can have here. Now. Precisely because there is no afterlife.

The best? Like what? Let's see a list.

You have already been presented with a long list of things to live for, by many members of this board.
That you continue to pretend otherwise only demonstrates that you have no desire to discuss this honestly, never mind rationally.

I am asking thaesofereode. I hope you are not implying everyone has the same definition of 'the best life' or that no one else has anything else to add.

carl wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

carl wrote:

thaesofereode wrote:This question contains its own answer.

We are living for the best, most wonderful life we can have here. Now. Precisely because there is no afterlife.

The best? Like what? Let's see a list.

You have already been presented with a long list of things to live for, by many members of this board.
That you continue to pretend otherwise only demonstrates that you have no desire to discuss this honestly, never mind rationally.

I am asking thaesofereode. I hope you are not implying everyone has the same definition of 'the best life' or that no one else has anything else to add.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Except that isn't faith, since we have evidence pointing to natural origins.

carl wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Except that isn't faith, since we have evidence pointing to natural origins.

You said "pointing"?

carl wrote:To bridge the gap from "pointing" to 'scientifically confirmed', your faith is used.

carl wrote: This shows you are human and have biases and personal desires directing your stand just like the rest of us.

carl wrote:Thomas Nagel: "I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.”(”The Last Word” by Thomas Nagel, Oxford University Press: 1997).

Thomas Eshuis wrote:You need to be able to rationally defend the claims made by your religion in order for your believe to be rational.

carl wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:You need to be able to rationally defend the claims made by your religion in order for your believe to be rational.

Please stop using the term 'rational' as if humans can be completely objective and rational 100%. You and I have our obvious biases - just look at our posts. Are you blind?