Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

NineOneFour · **#21** by **NineOneFour** » Aug 12, 2010 12:15 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/10/opini ... .html?_r=1

The Horror Show
By BOB HERBERT
Published: August 9, 2010

The employment situation in the United States is much worse than even the dismal numbers from last week’s jobless report would indicate. The nation is facing a full-blown employment crisis and policy makers are not responding with anything like the sense of urgency that is needed.

The employment data for July, released by the government on Friday, showed that private employers added just 71,000 jobs during the month and that the unemployment rate remained flat at 9.5 percent. But as bad as those numbers were, if you look beyond them you’ll see a horror show.

Government workers were walking the plank from coast to coast. About 143,000 temporary Census workers were let go, and another 48,000 government employees at the budget-strapped state and local levels lost their jobs. But the worst news, with the most ominous long-term implications, was that the reason the unemployment rate was not higher was because 181,000 workers left the labor force.

With many of them beaten down by the worst jobs situation since the Great Depression, they just stopped looking for work. And given the Alice-in-Wonderland way in which we compile our official jobless statistics, they are no longer counted as unemployed.

CONTINUED

Tennessee John · **#22** by **Tennessee John** » Aug 12, 2010 12:39 pm

NineOneFour wrote:I'm creating this thread to collect and discuss stories of the decline of America. The stories seem depressingly common these days. "Third World America" is the title of a new book by Arianna Huffington.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/1 ... 78840.html

UPDATE (11:24 PM Eastern): Officials now estimate that a crowd of 30,000 turned out, three times what they had originally anticipated. Some in attendance may have been accompanying actual applicants even if they were not applying themselves. 13,000 applications were handed out.

The large numbers indicate a huge demand, but there is literally no supply. The housing agency director "stressed that none of her agency's 455 housing aid vouchers is available at the moment."

According to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, "Concern is rising that a similar scene could occur Thursday when the housing authority of this small city begins accepting the completed applications. Wednesday's event was only to hand out the paperwork. The housing authority will begin accepting applications at 9 a.m."

CONTINUED

That's a lot of leaches.

Corneel · **#23** by **Corneel** » Aug 12, 2010 1:21 pm

I have said this before on the other site, but I feel that using the term "Third World" in conjunction with the US is at best hysterical hyperbole at worst callous disregard for the problems of real Third World countries, in comparison with which what the US faces is merely some discomfort.

That is not to say that the US doesn't face some real problems, and that it won't be difficult for those that are caught up in this, but I'd still prefer by far to be a US factory worker that just got fired and lost his health insurance than an average Chadian villager with a 50% chance of access to safe drinking water and extremely limited access to health care.

IOW: "Third World" is to the US as "communist" is to Barack Obama.

Dr. Kwaltz · **#24** by **Dr. Kwaltz** » Aug 12, 2010 5:53 pm

Corneel wrote:I have said this before on the other site, but I feel that using the term "Third World" in conjunction with the US is at best hysterical hyperbole at worst callous disregard for the problems of real Third World countries, in comparison with which what the US faces is merely some discomfort.

That is not to say that the US doesn't face some real problems, and that it won't be difficult for those that are caught up in this, but I'd still prefer by far to be a US factory worker that just got fired and lost his health insurance than an average Chadian villager with a 50% chance of access to safe drinking water and extremely limited access to health care.

IOW: "Third World" is to the US as "communist" is to Barack Obama.

USA is not a full fledged third world country, saying so would be dishonest, but USA is socially still as close to a third world country you can be without actually being one and it's getting worse every year.

Tennessee John · **#25** by **Tennessee John** » Aug 12, 2010 5:57 pm

Dr. Kwaltz wrote:
Corneel wrote:I have said this before on the other site, but I feel that using the term "Third World" in conjunction with the US is at best hysterical hyperbole at worst callous disregard for the problems of real Third World countries, in comparison with which what the US faces is merely some discomfort.

That is not to say that the US doesn't face some real problems, and that it won't be difficult for those that are caught up in this, but I'd still prefer by far to be a US factory worker that just got fired and lost his health insurance than an average Chadian villager with a 50% chance of access to safe drinking water and extremely limited access to health care.

IOW: "Third World" is to the US as "communist" is to Barack Obama.

USA is not a full fledged third world country, saying so would be dishonest, but USA is socially still as close to a third world country you can be without actually being one and it's getting worse every year.

FACT-MAN-2 · **#26** by **FACT-MAN-2** » Aug 12, 2010 6:03 pm

Tennessee John wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:I'm creating this thread to collect and discuss stories of the decline of America. The stories seem depressingly common these days. "Third World America" is the title of a new book by Arianna Huffington.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/1 ... 78840.html

UPDATE (11:24 PM Eastern): Officials now estimate that a crowd of 30,000 turned out, three times what they had originally anticipated. Some in attendance may have been accompanying actual applicants even if they were not applying themselves. 13,000 applications were handed out.

The large numbers indicate a huge demand, but there is literally no supply. The housing agency director "stressed that none of her agency's 455 housing aid vouchers is available at the moment."

According to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, "Concern is rising that a similar scene could occur Thursday when the housing authority of this small city begins accepting the completed applications. Wednesday's event was only to hand out the paperwork. The housing authority will begin accepting applications at 9 a.m."

CONTINUED

That's a lot of leaches.

WTF is this supposed to mean?

Sound bytes don't hack it. Try explaining yourself in the English langauge.

FACT-MAN-2 · **#27** by **FACT-MAN-2** » Aug 12, 2010 6:05 pm

Tennessee John wrote:
Dr. Kwaltz wrote:
Corneel wrote:I have said this before on the other site, but I feel that using the term "Third World" in conjunction with the US is at best hysterical hyperbole at worst callous disregard for the problems of real Third World countries, in comparison with which what the US faces is merely some discomfort.

That is not to say that the US doesn't face some real problems, and that it won't be difficult for those that are caught up in this, but I'd still prefer by far to be a US factory worker that just got fired and lost his health insurance than an average Chadian villager with a 50% chance of access to safe drinking water and extremely limited access to health care.

IOW: "Third World" is to the US as "communist" is to Barack Obama.

USA is not a full fledged third world country, saying so would be dishonest, but USA is socially still as close to a third world country you can be without actually being one and it's getting worse every year.

WTF is this supposed to mean?

Sound bytes don't hack it. Try explaining yourself in the English langauge.

Tennessee John · **#28** by **Tennessee John** » Aug 12, 2010 6:12 pm

FACT-MAN-2 wrote:
Tennessee John wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:I'm creating this thread to collect and discuss stories of the decline of America. The stories seem depressingly common these days. "Third World America" is the title of a new book by Arianna Huffington.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/1 ... 78840.html

UPDATE (11:24 PM Eastern): Officials now estimate that a crowd of 30,000 turned out, three times what they had originally anticipated. Some in attendance may have been accompanying actual applicants even if they were not applying themselves. 13,000 applications were handed out.

The large numbers indicate a huge demand, but there is literally no supply. The housing agency director "stressed that none of her agency's 455 housing aid vouchers is available at the moment."

According to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, "Concern is rising that a similar scene could occur Thursday when the housing authority of this small city begins accepting the completed applications. Wednesday's event was only to hand out the paperwork. The housing authority will begin accepting applications at 9 a.m."

CONTINUED

That's a lot of leaches.

WTF is this supposed to mean?

Sound bytes don't hack it. Try explaining yourself in the English langauge.

I thought that was pretty self explanatory. These people are leaches, parasites, maggots crawling on the corpse of the taxpayer. These are women with numerous children with numerous fathers. The section 8 housing they live in are crawling with gangs, drugs, and crime. They don't care about getting a job, they just want the free handouts. Water actually had to be handed out at that event because people didn't bring there own. Self reliance? Personal responsibility? None.
You should of saw the place after the people left, trash everywhere. These are the uneducated or government educated masses of idiots, but we all know how they vote. Democrats...they want those handouts.

Tennessee John · **#29** by **Tennessee John** » Aug 12, 2010 6:13 pm

FACT-MAN-2 wrote:
Tennessee John wrote:
Dr. Kwaltz wrote:
Corneel wrote:I have said this before on the other site, but I feel that using the term "Third World" in conjunction with the US is at best hysterical hyperbole at worst callous disregard for the problems of real Third World countries, in comparison with which what the US faces is merely some discomfort.

That is not to say that the US doesn't face some real problems, and that it won't be difficult for those that are caught up in this, but I'd still prefer by far to be a US factory worker that just got fired and lost his health insurance than an average Chadian villager with a 50% chance of access to safe drinking water and extremely limited access to health care.

IOW: "Third World" is to the US as "communist" is to Barack Obama.

USA is not a full fledged third world country, saying so would be dishonest, but USA is socially still as close to a third world country you can be without actually being one and it's getting worse every year.

WTF is this supposed to mean?

Sound bytes don't hack it. Try explaining yourself in the English langauge.

Pretty self explanatory also....me laughing at him calling the USA a third world nation.
Don't be so thick.

andyx1205 · **#30** by **andyx1205** » Aug 12, 2010 6:16 pm

Tennessee John wrote:
Dr. Kwaltz wrote:
Corneel wrote:I have said this before on the other site, but I feel that using the term "Third World" in conjunction with the US is at best hysterical hyperbole at worst callous disregard for the problems of real Third World countries, in comparison with which what the US faces is merely some discomfort.

That is not to say that the US doesn't face some real problems, and that it won't be difficult for those that are caught up in this, but I'd still prefer by far to be a US factory worker that just got fired and lost his health insurance than an average Chadian villager with a 50% chance of access to safe drinking water and extremely limited access to health care.

IOW: "Third World" is to the US as "communist" is to Barack Obama.

USA is not a full fledged third world country, saying so would be dishonest, but USA is socially still as close to a third world country you can be without actually being one and it's getting worse every year.

It's true actually, when it comes to public opinion on a woman's right to choose, and a gay's right to same-sex marriage/civil-union. Outside of America, most liberals and conservatives in the western developed world are socially liberal.

FACT-MAN-2 · **#31** by **FACT-MAN-2** » Aug 12, 2010 6:19 pm

NineOneFour wrote:
Jeffersonian-marxist wrote:http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=K9sPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TI0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=7075,322664&dq=the+decline+of+america&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=hq ... rica&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=u_ ... rica&hl=en

Nice try. Do you believe in global cooling as well?

The problem with the references that JM posted is that they are from periods of time in which the myriad indices by which we measure economic and social well being weren't anywhere near as critical as they have become today and the kind of talk of "decline' that was common then had more to do with right wing rhetoric and the social doscombooberations of the Vietnam War and the Nixon Administration than they had to do with actual conditions which measure social and economic decline.

They are, hence, irrelevant to the OP and hardly constitute even a "nice try."

hotshoe · **#32** by **hotshoe** » Aug 12, 2010 6:26 pm

The term "Second World Country" is appropriate here.

It was originally invented to apply to the Soviet Union and its allies from the cold war period. It carries with it a connotation of over-militarization at the expense of civil needs. Few Russians were starving but their food supply was insecure and of poor quality. Private vehicles were rare, but that hardly mattered, because the highway system was a mess. Almost everyone was literate, but higher education was restricted to the favored few, and what was taught at lower levels was so distorted by national control that it left the population essentially uneducated. The connotations of the term "Second World Country" were of grim, grey existence, just getting by with little hope for the future.

Sound familiar ? Sounds like America in the 2000s. I propose that we resurrect the term "Second World Country" to be used to describe the USA's current condition. It shows the loss from the former First World status without implying the descent into Third World chaos. Which it hasn't (at least, not yet, and may never.)

FACT-MAN-2 · **#33** by **FACT-MAN-2** » Aug 12, 2010 6:30 pm

Tennessee John wrote:
FACT-MAN-2 wrote:
Tennessee John wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:I'm creating this thread to collect and discuss stories of the decline of America. The stories seem depressingly common these days. "Third World America" is the title of a new book by Arianna Huffington.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/1 ... 78840.html

UPDATE (11:24 PM Eastern): Officials now estimate that a crowd of 30,000 turned out, three times what they had originally anticipated. Some in attendance may have been accompanying actual applicants even if they were not applying themselves. 13,000 applications were handed out.

The large numbers indicate a huge demand, but there is literally no supply. The housing agency director "stressed that none of her agency's 455 housing aid vouchers is available at the moment."

According to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, "Concern is rising that a similar scene could occur Thursday when the housing authority of this small city begins accepting the completed applications. Wednesday's event was only to hand out the paperwork. The housing authority will begin accepting applications at 9 a.m."

CONTINUED

That's a lot of leaches.

WTF is this supposed to mean?

Sound bytes don't hack it. Try explaining yourself in the English langauge.

I thought that was pretty self explanatory.

Thought thought he wasn't on a railroad track, either. Then a train hit him.

Tennessee John wrote:
These people are leaches, parasites, maggots crawling on the corpse of the taxpayer. These are women with numerous children with numerous fathers. The section 8 housing they live in are crawling with gangs, drugs, and crime. They don't care about getting a job, they just want the free handouts. Water actually had to be handed out at that event because people didn't bring there own. Self reliance? Personal responsibility? None.
You should of saw the place after the people left, trash everywhere. These are the uneducated or government educated masses of idiots, but we all know how they vote. Democrats...they want those handouts.

This is all rather crass and mean spirited generalization and personal opinion, which many do not share, me included. Hence, your sound byte wasn't as "obvious" as you thought. Only to you I reckon.

How the hell does a 23 year-old become as mendacious as this post indicates?

Beyond me.

Corneel · **#34** by **Corneel** » Aug 12, 2010 6:32 pm

Dr. Kwaltz wrote:
Corneel wrote:I have said this before on the other site, but I feel that using the term "Third World" in conjunction with the US is at best hysterical hyperbole at worst callous disregard for the problems of real Third World countries, in comparison with which what the US faces is merely some discomfort.

That is not to say that the US doesn't face some real problems, and that it won't be difficult for those that are caught up in this, but I'd still prefer by far to be a US factory worker that just got fired and lost his health insurance than an average Chadian villager with a 50% chance of access to safe drinking water and extremely limited access to health care.

IOW: "Third World" is to the US as "communist" is to Barack Obama.

USA is not a full fledged third world country, saying so would be dishonest, but USA is socially still as close to a third world country you can be without actually being one and it's getting worse every year.

And Obama is just as close to being a communist you can be without actually being one, maybe? No, I'm sorry, but the USA is nowhere near being a Third World country, not socially, not economically.

FACT-MAN-2 · **#35** by **FACT-MAN-2** » Aug 12, 2010 7:21 pm

Corneel wrote:
Dr. Kwaltz wrote:
Corneel wrote:I have said this before on the other site, but I feel that using the term "Third World" in conjunction with the US is at best hysterical hyperbole at worst callous disregard for the problems of real Third World countries, in comparison with which what the US faces is merely some discomfort.

That is not to say that the US doesn't face some real problems, and that it won't be difficult for those that are caught up in this, but I'd still prefer by far to be a US factory worker that just got fired and lost his health insurance than an average Chadian villager with a 50% chance of access to safe drinking water and extremely limited access to health care.

IOW: "Third World" is to the US as "communist" is to Barack Obama.

USA is not a full fledged third world country, saying so would be dishonest, but USA is socially still as close to a third world country you can be without actually being one and it's getting worse every year.

And Obama is just as close to being a communist you can be without actually being one, maybe? No, I'm sorry, but the USA is nowhere near being a Third World country, not socially, not economically.

It depends on which indice one uses to reach the conclusion.

Third world countries have always been characterized as one's that have no middle class and in which small minorities control the great majority of the wealth and massive majorities live in abject poverty as they fight over the slim pickings that are left.

Well, that's exactly what's happening in America, fewer and fewer people are controlling more and more of the wealth, and more and more people are being left to fight over the slim pickings that are left, pushing them out of a fast disappearing middle class and into the ranks of the poor.

Two per cent of Americans now control more than half the wealth, a trend that is continuing apace.

These are the facts from which the idea that America is fast becoming a third world country originates.

Corneel · **#36** by **Corneel** » Aug 12, 2010 9:38 pm

FACT-MAN-2 wrote:
It depends on which indice one uses to reach the conclusion.

Third world countries have always been characterized as one's that have no middle class and in which small minorities control the great majority of the wealth and massive majorities live in abject poverty as they fight over the slim pickings that are left.

Well, that's exactly what's happening in America, fewer and fewer people are controlling more and more of the wealth, and more and more people are being left to fight over the slim pickings that are left, pushing them out of a fast disappearing middle class and into the ranks of the poor.

Two per cent of Americans now control more than half the wealth, a trend that is continuing apace.

These are the facts from which the idea that America is fast becoming a third world country originates.

Massive majorities in abject poverty? In the US? Oh, please, how many Americans have to walk for a mile to get to some source of safe drinking water and have to wait in line? How many of them don't have any access to safe drinking water? How many of them do take their shower with a bucket? How many of them have no elictricity at all year through and have to have their children study by the light of an oil lamp (if they can afford it)? How many of them have to send out their children to collect dead wood for cooking? How many of them have to get by at 2$ a day or less? How many American families don't own a vehicle? Or a TV?

Even if 98% of Americans control only 50% of US wealth, that's still on average a great fucking lot more than the average inhabitant of a Third World country can hope to control in his life. 50% percent of American wealth is by no measure "slim pickings".

Darkchilde · **#37** by **Darkchilde** » Aug 13, 2010 10:09 am

Tennessee John wrote:
Pretty self explanatory also....me laughing at him calling the USA a third world nation.
Don't be so thick.

!

MODNOTE
Tennessee John, calling another member of the forum "thick" is a personal attack. As you know, you can attack a post/idea as much as you want, but personal attacks are frowned upon. This time I am only giving you an advisory. Please read the forum rules again: http://www.rationalskepticism.org/announcements/forum-users-agreement-t76.html

NineOneFour · **#38** by **NineOneFour** » Aug 13, 2010 10:15 am

Tennessee John wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:I'm creating this thread to collect and discuss stories of the decline of America. The stories seem depressingly common these days. "Third World America" is the title of a new book by Arianna Huffington.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/1 ... 78840.html

UPDATE (11:24 PM Eastern): Officials now estimate that a crowd of 30,000 turned out, three times what they had originally anticipated. Some in attendance may have been accompanying actual applicants even if they were not applying themselves. 13,000 applications were handed out.

The large numbers indicate a huge demand, but there is literally no supply. The housing agency director "stressed that none of her agency's 455 housing aid vouchers is available at the moment."

According to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, "Concern is rising that a similar scene could occur Thursday when the housing authority of this small city begins accepting the completed applications. Wednesday's event was only to hand out the paperwork. The housing authority will begin accepting applications at 9 a.m."

CONTINUED

That's a lot of leaches.

NineOneFour · **#39** by **NineOneFour** » Aug 13, 2010 10:16 am

Corneel wrote:I have said this before on the other site, but I feel that using the term "Third World" in conjunction with the US is at best hysterical hyperbole at worst callous disregard for the problems of real Third World countries, in comparison with which what the US faces is merely some discomfort.

That is not to say that the US doesn't face some real problems, and that it won't be difficult for those that are caught up in this, but I'd still prefer by far to be a US factory worker that just got fired and lost his health insurance than an average Chadian villager with a 50% chance of access to safe drinking water and extremely limited access to health care.

IOW: "Third World" is to the US as "communist" is to Barack Obama.

Okay, you have a point here. If I could, I would re-title the thread "Evidence of the decline of America". Would that make everyone happy?

Audley Strange · **#40** by **Audley Strange** » Aug 13, 2010 10:22 am

Actually that would be a great idea, then all the threads that are about the Decline of the U.S.A could be put into one big thread rather than be scattered about.

Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

Re: Third World America

Re: Third World America

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