Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#81  Postby mrjonno » Aug 14, 2010 5:56 pm

Telecomm companies in the US are all privately held; some of the infrastructure they use are publicly held, like major segments of the Internet backbone for example.

While many power generating plants, especially hydropower like Coulee Dam and Hoover Dam and Bonneveille Dam and the dams that comprise the TVA, are publicly held, many non-hydropower generating plants are typically privately held, but large parts of the indfrastructures they use are publicly held, e.g. transmission lines.

Most (if not all) major airports and port facilities are publicly held


Learn a new thing every day, the US is more 'socialist' than the UK. Just about the only thing in the UK that isnt privatised these days is nuclear power and the only reason we didnt privatise that was no one would buy shares in it without an awful lot of public subsidies (nuclear power whatever else it is is not remotely profitable).

Even the postal services are being prepared for privatisation.

Err Factman I just looked up the National Grid who are a privately owned company which owns all British transmission lines, they actually own a large part of American ones as well, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Grid_plc

About the only thing that is still public are most roads but we even a few private toll roads as well here.

How is 'socialist' Europe most capitalist in some ways than the US?, there are also no restrictions on what sports stars/teams can spend as well
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#82  Postby NineOneFour » Aug 14, 2010 7:07 pm

Roger Cooke wrote:If I might inject a small ray of hope: Democracies do come back from ruin. Britain was essentially bankrupt at the end of World War II, yet it recovered and adapted to a smaller role on the international stage. The US has a history of intellectual isolation that is very noticeable if you talk in any depth with an American who hasn't been outside the US (like George Bush before he became President). It may be more difficult for Americans to accept that they are no longer Number One, Top Gun, the Big Kahuna, etc., etc., but eventually they will adapt. There's a lot of vitality in the US; it just needs to be cured of its illusions. But it may be that things aren't bad enough yet. Most Americans, like stock market investors in 1929, still seem to believe that things will soon get back to normal (by which they mean the hollow prosperity and the standard of living they have been enjoying but not earning). It's going to be another year or two. Perhaps they won't truly get it until they elect some idiot Republican as President in 2012 and discover that making the top 1% even filthier-rich than they already are doesn't provide full employment.


I actually think it would go a long way in helping if the idea that the US is #1 in everything WAS annihilated.
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Re: Third World America

#83  Postby NineOneFour » Aug 14, 2010 7:08 pm

Valden wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:
Valden wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/americas-biggest-jobs-pro_b_679426.html

America's biggest -- and only major -- jobs program is the U.S. military.

Over 1,400,000 Americans are now on active duty; another 833,000 are in the reserves, many full time. Another 1,600,000 Americans work in companies that supply the military with everything from weapons to utensils. (I'm not even including all the foreign contractors employing non-US citizens.)

If we didn't have this giant military jobs program, the U.S. unemployment rate would be over 11.5 percent today instead of 9.5 percent.

And without our military jobs program personal incomes would be dropping faster. The Commerce Department reported Monday the only major metro areas where both net earnings and personal incomes rose last year were San Antonio, Texas, Virginia Beach, Virginia, and Washington, D.C. -- because all three have high concentrations of military and federal jobs.

This isn't an argument for more military spending. Just the opposite. Having a giant undercover military jobs program is an insane way to keep Americans employed. It creates jobs we don't need but we keep anyway because there's no honest alternative. We don't have an overt jobs program based on what's really needed.

CONTINUED


It would be even higher if there was no Job Corps as well.



Not to mention that they do not count prisoners either.


Indeed.

There are currently 115 Job Corps centers across the country. Not sure how many students are housed altogether, but at my center, there's over 220 that live in the dorms.

I'm sure everyone here can imagine how much more bad the housing crisis would become if Job Corps were to be completely shut down. Many students have no homes to return too (such as myself) and would be homeless if it were not for the centers.

ETA: Forgot to mention, many students are court ordered to be at the center. If even one were to be closed, they'd either be moved to a new center, sent home (if they have one) or sent to prison. For many, that's a frightning thought.


Christ. I didn't know this.

Why are they court-ordered???
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Re: Third World America

#84  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » Aug 14, 2010 7:20 pm

The decline of America economically, not to mention socially, has been of sufficient gravity to catch the attention of many who would otherwise be focused on other, perhaps more pressing things, to wit:


Third World America: Chronicling the Assault on America's Middle Class...and the Solutions

By Arianna Huffington
Posted: August 9, 2010 11:25 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-h ... 76474.html

"The latest job numbers are out -- and they're not good."

That's a phrase we've heard a lot lately -- and will likely continue to hear for the foreseeable future. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, while the unemployment rate remained unchanged at 9.5 percent, the economy actually lost another 131,000 jobs in July. The only reason the unemployment rate didn't go up was because so many people had quit looking and dropped out of the workforce. Tens of thousands of people throwing in the towel is definitely not good news. More "not good news": the number of Americans unemployed for 26 weeks or more is now over 6.5 million (see at:

http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2010/ ... -time.html
Clearly, we're not in the middle of a normal recovery. Wall Street may have its casino up and running again, but Main Street shows no signs of bouncing back anytime soon. From foreclosures to unemployment to household debt to bankruptcies, the American middle class is under assault -- and America is in danger of becoming a Third World nation.

I detail all the ways this is happening -- and the reasons why -- in my upcoming book, Third World America. Just as important, I also talk about the steps we can all take to help stop the slide. As soon as I finished writing the book, I knew I wanted to keep telling the stories of the middle class families whose lives have been turned upside down by the economic crisis -- and to provide interactive tools that would allow people to get involved.

That's why HuffPost is launching a "Third World America" section to bear witness to what is happening to the American middle class in small towns and big cities all across the country. And we will, every day, focus on the solutions that are making a difference in the lives of ordinary Americans.

And we want you to be a big part of this section. If you or someone you know has been struggling with unemployment, foreclosure, bankruptcy, or credit card debt, we want to hear about it. Visit our interactive map, share your story, and leave your mark.

continues ...

When an issue has sufficient gravity to garner this kind of attention from these kinds of folks, you know it's serious.

And yes, I know that NineOneFour has mentioned this particular effort by Ms Huffington in this thread already, but this piece offers a bit more insight into her thinking.
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#85  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » Aug 14, 2010 8:07 pm

Roger Cooke wrote:If I might inject a small ray of hope: Democracies do come back from ruin. Britain was essentially bankrupt at the end of World War II, yet it recovered and adapted to a smaller role on the international stage. The US has a history of intellectual isolation that is very noticeable if you talk in any depth with an American who hasn't been outside the US (like George Bush before he became President). It may be more difficult for Americans to accept that they are no longer Number One, Top Gun, the Big Kahuna, etc., etc., but eventually they will adapt. There's a lot of vitality in the US; it just needs to be cured of its illusions. But it may be that things aren't bad enough yet. Most Americans, like stock market investors in 1929, still seem to believe that things will soon get back to normal (by which they mean the hollow prosperity and the standard of living they have been enjoying but not earning). It's going to be another year or two. Perhaps they won't truly get it until they elect some idiot Republican as President in 2012 and discover that making the top 1% even filthier-rich than they already are doesn't provide full employment.

The thing is, Roger, there are many differences between the UK of 1946 and the America of 2010, things that are so fundamental in nature as to render any comparison null and void, methinks.

It isn't so much a matter of Americans thinking they're Number One, Top Gun, the Big Kahuna, or the world's policeman, it's much more a matter of getting to some sort of economic viability by re-establishing the equity that Americans once held in the country's economy and a more egalitarian sharing of national incomes and wealth, and getting on a firm job growth trajectory. These things are all in negative territory (as it were) and the condition is structural, not in passing or cyclical, they are here to stay unless some pretty radical steps are taken to turn their tides.

And to date at any rate, we're not seeing any advocasy for the kind of radical steps that are necessary if we are to in fact gain any kind of recovery. Nobody appears to have the balls to step up to that plate, altough several private citizens have done so, e.g., Mr. Babbit in the article I posted earlier, among a number of others. But in terms of elected officials, no dice. They D's seem to be suffering the deer caught in the headlights syndrome while the R's seem only interested in opportunism to reignite faith in an already failed policy.

The risks are enormous because if these folks dally too much longer the double dip recession we're diving into could easily deterioate into a full blown depression ... and the economic mayhem that would cause would have the country in a hole it might not ever dig itself out of.

Your "ray of hope" seems too fleeting to my eye.

Now, I could throw in a host of other issues that bear directly on this too, global warming, peak oil, general decline of the biosphere, health isssues like obesity and the oncoming superbugs, entrenched racism, goofball religious whackos, and the painful lack of good leadership, not to mention the unwinnable war in Afcrapistan and the country's monstrous national and personal debt levels and ever rising home foreclosures.

Throw them all in the pot, stir well, and you have the recipe for an unmitigated disaster or historical proportions.

In the longer run (but not too much longer ;) ) Americans may just have to steel up and scrap this shitty thing we call an economy and get on with the job of inventing a truly modern system, one that's sustainable and which has the capacity to deliver a high standardd of living to all concerned, an American invention for Americans. We had the opportunity to do this in 1930 and blew it, opting to recussitate a dead system instead and stand it back up on its wobbly legs, which have been wobbling ever since and are now shaking so badly the system may not hold up.

The world, my friend, is never going to be the same and we've probably not seen anything yet. :o
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Re: Third World America

#86  Postby MoonLit » Aug 14, 2010 8:37 pm

NineOneFour wrote:

Christ. I didn't know this.

Why are they court-ordered???


Depends on the student. For some it's because they just couldn't stop fucking up and getting caught breaking the law and so the judge decided to send them to Job Corps instead of prison.
If a student who has been court ordered to go to Job Corps, they MUST do their best to complete their trade and graduate. Other wise, they'd be sent home on certain conditions, and sometimes automatic prison, depending on as to why they were ordered to Job Corps in the first place. And if they have no home to return too, it's prison or some other facility for them.

Many students don't have the best home lives and so the center is seen as a safe haven from hell as well.

If we got someone from the GOP or a Teabagger as president, I seriously worry about what may happen to Job Corps. It's a major life-line for many of the youth. Hell, even if the GOP and/or Teabaggers are voted in for Congress more then anyone else, I worry about that as well. They could seriously fuck things up for us.
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Re: Third World America

#87  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » Aug 14, 2010 10:13 pm

Valden wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:

Christ. I didn't know this.

Why are they court-ordered???


Depends on the student. For some it's because they just couldn't stop fucking up and getting caught breaking the law and so the judge decided to send them to Job Corps instead of prison.
If a student who has been court ordered to go to Job Corps, they MUST do their best to complete their trade and graduate. Other wise, they'd be sent home on certain conditions, and sometimes automatic prison, depending on as to why they were ordered to Job Corps in the first place. And if they have no home to return too, it's prison or some other facility for them.

Many students don't have the best home lives and so the center is seen as a safe haven from hell as well.

If we got someone from the GOP or a Teabagger as president, I seriously worry about what may happen to Job Corps. It's a major life-line for many of the youth. Hell, even if the GOP and/or Teabaggers are voted in for Congress more then anyone else, I worry about that as well. They could seriously fuck things up for us.

In much the same manner, one of the first acts of the new Reagan administration in 1981 was to close halfway houses operated by the Federal Bureau of Prisons, houses that accomodated prison inmates who were "short timers" deemed to be worthy of work release, with "short time" being anywhere between three months and a year. Thousands of inmates who were in halfway houses and working at jobs were returned to prisons to serve out their sentences.

So it's not as if there's no precedent for closing Job Corps Centers in the way you fear.
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Re: Third World America

#88  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » Aug 14, 2010 10:22 pm

These kinds of news reports are dominant this very day. It seems they appear everywhere I've looked:


Economic fears rise as disappointing figures pile up

Most economists still think the U.S. will avoid a double-dip recession, but a long malaise seems likelier


By Walter Hamilton and P.J. Huffstutter, Los Angeles Times
August 14, 2010
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-e ... 3477.story

The U.S. economy and stock market ended one of the grimmer weeks of the year, as disappointing retail sales figures released Friday combined with other dismal data to heighten fears that the nation's nascent recovery is stalling.

The retail report, which came only days after the Federal Reserve announced a new effort to prop up the economy, fueled growing concern that the U.S. is in danger of falling into a double-dip recession.

Rising anxiety was apparent worldwide this week. U.S. unemployment claims ticked up. The Chinese economy, a steady consumer of U.S. and global exports, showed signs of cooling. The Bank of England cut its economic growth estimates for Britain through next year, citing planned government budget cuts to reduce deficit spending. And investors huddled into the perceived safety of U.S. Treasury bonds even as yields skidded to a 16-month low.

Most economists believe a dip back into recession — as well as an equally debilitating bout of deflation, or broadly falling prices — will be avoided. But many have nonetheless warned that the prospects are rising, and say the more probable scenario isn't much more appealing: a protracted economic malaise with imperceptible growth and stubbornly high joblessness.

"We are mired in a jobless recovery, and the government has run out of ammunition to help out the economy," said Sung Won Sohn, an economics professor at Cal State Channel Islands. "The current situation doesn't look very good."

The data come at a time when lawmakers in Washington are bickering over the need for — and affordability of — a second stimulus package. Last year's $787-billion stimulus is widely credited with preventing a far sharper downturn. But the spending programs it financed are winding down, and cash-strapped local governments nationwide have been resorting to layoffs and other cost-cutting measures.

The consternation has shown in the stock market, where the Dow Jones industrial average fell for the fourth day in a row Friday and ended the week down 3.3%. The blue-chip indicator has dropped 8% since its recent high in late April.

continued ...
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#89  Postby Macdoc » Aug 14, 2010 11:52 pm

Sort of inverse evidence....China does the correct thing in curbing predatory speculation - the US thinks it's a "good thing" :nono:

China to keep reining in housing market
(Xinhua)
Updated: 2010-08-14 09:37

BEIJING -- Chinese Vice-Premier Li Keqiang said Friday that the government would continue to regulate the housing market and resolutely crack down on speculative property investment and other unreasonable market demands.

He said the government would continue to increase the supply of affordable housing for low-income families in order to consolidate the effects of the regulation over the past months.

He pledged to ensure healthy development of the real estate industry and improve people's living conditions.

Inspecting a low-rent housing site in Beijing, Li urged the municipal government to offer preferential policies in the areas of investment, land, and taxation to quicken the construction of affordable housing.

He said that the affordable housing program should be transparent and fair in order to allow mid-and-low income residents to benefit.

In the face of skyrocketing housing prices, the Chinese government has ordered a stringent credit policy to restrict speculative purchases and has increased spending to build affordable housing.


Housing prices in major Chinese cities rose 10.3 percent year-on-year in July, slower than the 11.4 percent growth in June, the National Bureau of Statistics said on Tuesday.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2 ... 153218.htm

They also understand the value of affordable housing and how it keeps people working. THIS government is serving it's citizens very well in this regard and curbing damaging predation.
First world idjits in power......take notes.

After WWII affordable housing programs were job one - it's been downhill in most nations ever since....with predators given free reign by ideologue govs in their pocket.

The US instead is determined to "save" it's bank oligarchs by propping up ridiculous housing prices. That WILL fail....sooner or later. :coffee:
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#90  Postby rEvolutionist » Aug 15, 2010 1:08 am

Roger Cooke wrote:If I might inject a small ray of hope: Democracies do come back from ruin. Britain was essentially bankrupt at the end of World War II, yet it recovered and adapted to a smaller role on the international stage. The US has a history of intellectual isolation that is very noticeable if you talk in any depth with an American who hasn't been outside the US (like George Bush before he became President). It may be more difficult for Americans to accept that they are no longer Number One, Top Gun, the Big Kahuna, etc., etc., but eventually they will adapt.


I wonder. Surely the UK didn't have the same exceptionalism streak through it's culture and society that the US has now, did it? I'm not saying that can't be overcome, but I imagine it will be a big hurdle for the US to get over if it is to accept that it is no longer the top dog in the world.
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#91  Postby Roger Cooke » Aug 15, 2010 1:54 am

FACT-MAN-2 wrote:
Roger Cooke wrote:If I might inject a small ray of hope: Democracies do come back from ruin. Britain was essentially bankrupt at the end of World War II, yet it recovered and adapted to a smaller role on the international stage. The US has a history of intellectual isolation that is very noticeable if you talk in any depth with an American who hasn't been outside the US (like George Bush before he became President). It may be more difficult for Americans to accept that they are no longer Number One, Top Gun, the Big Kahuna, etc., etc., but eventually they will adapt. There's a lot of vitality in the US; it just needs to be cured of its illusions. But it may be that things aren't bad enough yet. Most Americans, like stock market investors in 1929, still seem to believe that things will soon get back to normal (by which they mean the hollow prosperity and the standard of living they have been enjoying but not earning). It's going to be another year or two. Perhaps they won't truly get it until they elect some idiot Republican as President in 2012 and discover that making the top 1% even filthier-rich than they already are doesn't provide full employment.

The thing is, Roger, there are many differences between the UK of 1946 and the America of 2010, things that are so fundamental in nature as to render any comparison null and void, methinks.

It isn't so much a matter of Americans thinking they're Number One, Top Gun, the Big Kahuna, or the world's policeman, it's much more a matter of getting to some sort of economic viability by re-establishing the equity that Americans once held in the country's economy and a more egalitarian sharing of national incomes and wealth, and getting on a firm job growth trajectory. These things are all in negative territory (as it were) and the condition is structural, not in passing or cyclical, they are here to stay unless some pretty radical steps are taken to turn their tides.

And to date at any rate, we're not seeing any advocasy for the kind of radical steps that are necessary if we are to in fact gain any kind of recovery. Nobody appears to have the balls to step up to that plate, altough several private citizens have done so, e.g., Mr. Babbit in the article I posted earlier, among a number of others. But in terms of elected officials, no dice. They D's seem to be suffering the deer caught in the headlights syndrome while the R's seem only interested in opportunism to reignite faith in an already failed policy.

The risks are enormous because if these folks dally too much longer the double dip recession we're diving into could easily deterioate into a full blown depression ... and the economic mayhem that would cause would have the country in a hole it might not ever dig itself out of.

Your "ray of hope" seems too fleeting to my eye.

Now, I could throw in a host of other issues that bear directly on this too, global warming, peak oil, general decline of the biosphere, health isssues like obesity and the oncoming superbugs, entrenched racism, goofball religious whackos, and the painful lack of good leadership, not to mention the unwinnable war in Afcrapistan and the country's monstrous national and personal debt levels and ever rising home foreclosures.

Throw them all in the pot, stir well, and you have the recipe for an unmitigated disaster or historical proportions.

In the longer run (but not too much longer ;) ) Americans may just have to steel up and scrap this shitty thing we call an economy and get on with the job of inventing a truly modern system, one that's sustainable and which has the capacity to deliver a high standardd of living to all concerned, an American invention for Americans. We had the opportunity to do this in 1930 and blew it, opting to recussitate a dead system instead and stand it back up on its wobbly legs, which have been wobbling ever since and are now shaking so badly the system may not hold up.

The world, my friend, is never going to be the same and we've probably not seen anything yet. :o


Depressing, but probably more realistic than my ray of hope. FDR "saved the capitalist system" according to my namesake Alistair Cooke. But was that a good thing? The list of ailments that we are suffering from, as you indicate, is a very long one. And no one will help us. We need to do it ourselves. Germany was in far, far worse condition in 1945, and morally bankrupt as well. Yet it has come back to be one of the world's leading nations, both economically and morally. We can do it, but, like you, I don't see the will to do it yet in the faces and speech of ordinary Americans. Like I said, maybe things just have to get worse. When people like Roger Ailes and Rupert Murdoch control what most people listen to, though, they may be able to sustain this plutocracy indefinitely. Even if we have four years of misery under a Republican President from 2012 to 2016, they'll probably be able to convince millions of people that that was due to the four years of Obama. It won't be easy, but we've got to keep hammering away at this message: Tax the rich, cut the military, build the country.
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#92  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » Aug 15, 2010 7:04 am

Roger Cooke wrote:
Depressing, but probably more realistic than my ray of hope. FDR "saved the capitalist system" according to my namesake Alistair Cooke. But was that a good thing?

I don't think so, look where its got us, right back to square one. :o

We could have done so much better! And there was a small cadre of progressives in Roosevelt's inner sanctum that agreed we could if we adopted some kind of different system. But nobody would lsten to them and they drifted back to academia and their private professional pursuits, from which they had come.

Roger Cooke wrote:
The list of ailments that we are suffering from, as you indicate, is a very long one. And no one will help us. We need to do it ourselves.

Absolutely! :smile:

Roger Cooke wrote:
Germany was in far, far worse condition in 1945, and morally bankrupt as well. Yet it has come back to be one of the world's leading nations, both economically and morally. We can do it, but, like you, I don't see the will to do it yet in the faces and speech of ordinary Americans.

Most of them don't know where to begin. We need leadership on these questions, we're not getting it.

Germany is a unique story and one we can't emulate. They got scores of $billions in aid to rebuild, essentially free financing, e.g. Marshal Plan and other programs. They hung onto their manufacturing and chemical industries and built the world's leading green energy industry and employed a lot of cheap labor immigrants in the process, while paying skilled workers high wages with good benefits. They did not let their banking system run amok. They taxed their corporations. Their people did not go into massive credit card debt. And once the Nazis were out of their hair they found their moral compass pretty quickly.

By and large, the US has outsourced its manufacturing and chemical industries, leaving no foundation upon which to build a strong economy.

Roger Cooke wrote:
Like I said, maybe things just have to get worse. When people like Roger Ailes and Rupert Murdoch control what most people listen to, though, they may be able to sustain this plutocracy indefinitely. Even if we have four years of misery under a Republican President from 2012 to 2016, they'll probably be able to convince millions of people that that was due to the four years of Obama.

The plutocrats may find it difficult to impossble to sustain the economy. If it should crash, the jig will be up and we'll have to start from scratch. The uber rich will flee in their private jets, knowing that it's over.

Roger Cooke wrote:
It won't be easy, but we've got to keep hammering away at this message: Tax the rich, cut the military, build the country.

and do things to boost job creation in significant ways.

If Obama doesn't have the balls to make this speech, we're probably toast, in one form or another.

I am so glad to be in these mountains! :cheers:
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#93  Postby Lewis » Aug 15, 2010 9:04 am

As another poster already mentioned elsewhere and despite Obama’s recent optimism, make no mistake, the US is in dire straits, such as previously pushed other countries over the edge.

US GDP may seem impressive at 14 trillion odd, but 43 percent or so represents government spending (the only years when it was higher was during the war years 1943 to 1945 when it hovered around 50 percent), with health care and the financial sector another 25 percent. Even as America’s manufacturing base steadily shrinks, not only in the more traditional sectors but also in advanced tech-industries, increased automation having taken its own toll on the number of unemployed.

As demonstrated by the latest monthly trade deficit figures, a rise in consumer spending or restocking of inventories now automatically translates into higher imports from China and more one-way debt. If China’s growth stalls, the resulting glut in goods will inevitably mean another export drive, disrupting US industry even more (as similarly in the past with Japan).

In a global setting whoever produces goods the best, the cheapest and fastest way wins the race, and US competitiveness is simply no longer what it once was. Whereas in contrast to the not-in-my-backyard attitudes in the US and most other western countries, China, India and the like invite new industry with open arms, valuing those employed therein.

China continually betters its manufacturing prowess and benefiting from major cost advantages, constantly boosts its worldwide market share in myriad consumer products, with companies like Wal-mart giving a direct link to western consumers.

There’s a dramatic economic shift under way, with a multi surge in high-quality Chinese exports below US manufacturing costs changing the whole landscape: cut prices by 30 percent or more, or risk losing your customers – even as the US trade deficit with China soars to new records. If the US is to regain historical competitiveness it basically needs a whole new business model!

Now for the first time we see a huge country like China compete not only through low wages but also high tech, with innovation given top priority, a combination leaving the US with well nigh insurmountable problems.

On the one hand US multinationals reap rich profits by operating in the Chinese consumer market (the middle class alone is expected to double by 2010), and by outsourcing labour, components and hardware.

On the other, as US consumers binge on cheap Chinese goods, domestic employment is being lost, increasing trade deficits coupled to budget deficits drives the dollar ever downwards (with China exacerbating the problem through its undervalued currency), and US companies no longer seek to invest in new productive capacity (hence chronically low interest rates), while busy losing its engineers.

You can’t have free trade unless it’s fair, with both parties in a win-win situation, a thing that’s simply not happening. And in that China now holds over two trillion dollars of US government bonds, in effect financing latter’s trade and budget deficits, the Obama administration can’t even come down hard on some of China’s nastier trade practices (‘forced technology transfer’ as with GM and other US corporations but the least), a state of affairs which can only worsen!

Speak of greater income equality, tinker with the tax system all you like, or see congress and the Fed throw all the money in the world at the problem, but in the end it comes back to making real things locally. Not only do manufacturing jobs on average pay more, but they also create a multiplier effect: each one creates more jobs down the line, far more so than any in the service sector. A vibrant longer-term economy demands manufacturing at its core, not only generating the necessary income so that people are able to consume but as an enabler or springboard of future economic growth.

Putting the US back on a viable fiscal footing requires measures no current US politician would countenance (in fact, the IMF imposed some of them in the past on developing nations as a matter of course) – neither would they play well in this forum I daresay!

The following seemed worth a mention.

http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshots/e ... u.s._jobs/

“Free Trade Agreement with Korea will cost U.S. jobs, Robert E. Scott, July, 2010.

The Obama administration has announced that it intends to finalize a new free trade agreement with South Korea (KORUS FTA) in time for the next G-20 summit in November. Although the U.S. International Trade Commission projects this will have a small positive impact on the U.S. trade balance, and ‘minimal or negligible ‘ impact on U.S. employment, history shows that such trade deals lead to rapidly growing trade deficits and job loss in the United States.

The Charts below compare USITC’s estimates of the impact of the forthcoming free trade agreement with Korea to EPI’s own calculation. Unlike USITC’s forecast of a small positive impact, EPI’s research shows it will increase the U.S. trade deficit with Korea by about $16.7 billion, and displace about 159,000 American jobs within the first seven years after it takes effect.”
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#94  Postby NineOneFour » Aug 15, 2010 10:47 am

FACT-MAN-2 wrote:
Roger Cooke wrote:
Depressing, but probably more realistic than my ray of hope. FDR "saved the capitalist system" according to my namesake Alistair Cooke. But was that a good thing?

I don't think so, look where its got us, right back to square one. :o

We could have done so much better! And there was a small cadre of progressives in Roosevelt's inner sanctum that agreed we could if we adopted some kind of different system. But nobody would lsten to them and they drifted back to academia and their private professional pursuits, from which they had come.


Actually, FDR wanted a Second Bill of Rights, he just never had the political capital to implement it.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoFLH8D7Xys[/youtube]

FDR wanted to save democracy, not necessarily capitalism.

[Excerpt from President Roosevelt's January 11, 1944 message to the Congress of the United States on the State of the Union]

It is our duty now to begin to lay the plans and determine the strategy for the winning of a lasting peace and the establishment of an American standard of living higher than ever before known. We cannot be content, no matter how high that general standard of living may be, if some fraction of our people—whether it be one-third or one-fifth or one-tenth—is ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure.

This Republic had its beginning, and grew to its present strength, under the protection of certain inalienable political rights—among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. They were our rights to life and liberty.

As our nation has grown in size and stature, however—as our industrial economy expanded—these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness.

We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. Necessitous men are not free men. People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

1. The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

2. The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

3. The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

4. The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

5. The right of every family to a decent home;

6. The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

7. The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

8. The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

Americas own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens.

For unless there is security here at home, there can not be lasting peace in the world.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights

Roger Cooke wrote:
The list of ailments that we are suffering from, as you indicate, is a very long one. And no one will help us. We need to do it ourselves.

Absolutely! :smile:


That's great. How?

Roger Cooke wrote:
Germany was in far, far worse condition in 1945, and morally bankrupt as well. Yet it has come back to be one of the world's leading nations, both economically and morally. We can do it, but, like you, I don't see the will to do it yet in the faces and speech of ordinary Americans.

Most of them don't know where to begin. We need leadership on these questions, we're not getting it.

Germany is a unique story and one we can't emulate. They got scores of $billions in aid to rebuild, essentially free financing, e.g. Marshal Plan and other programs. They hung onto their manufacturing and chemical industries and built the world's leading green energy industry and employed a lot of cheap labor immigrants in the process, while paying skilled workers high wages with good benefits. They did not let their banking system run amok. They taxed their corporations. Their people did not go into massive credit card debt. And once the Nazis were out of their hair they found their moral compass pretty quickly.

By and large, the US has outsourced its manufacturing and chemical industries, leaving no foundation upon which to build a strong economy.

Roger Cooke wrote:
Like I said, maybe things just have to get worse. When people like Roger Ailes and Rupert Murdoch control what most people listen to, though, they may be able to sustain this plutocracy indefinitely. Even if we have four years of misery under a Republican President from 2012 to 2016, they'll probably be able to convince millions of people that that was due to the four years of Obama.

The plutocrats may find it difficult to impossble to sustain the economy. If it should crash, the jig will be up and we'll have to start from scratch. The uber rich will flee in their private jets, knowing that it's over.

Roger Cooke wrote:
It won't be easy, but we've got to keep hammering away at this message: Tax the rich, cut the military, build the country.

and do things to boost job creation in significant ways.

If Obama doesn't have the balls to make this speech, we're probably toast, in one form or another.


He doesn't. He's already backing down on the mosque.
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#95  Postby crank » Aug 15, 2010 1:02 pm

It is not that long in the future, when automation will so dominate manufacturing and much else that there will be very few low skilled jobs. What do we do then? Everyone is not capable of the kind of training/schooling that will be the prerequisites of the modern economies that are really right around the corner. A staple of SF novels for decades, I can't remember any decent ideas for a solution.
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#96  Postby NineOneFour » Aug 15, 2010 1:51 pm

http://www.slate.com/id/2263912/

Take This Job and Shove It
JetBlue's Steven Slater isn't the only one: why more and more American workers are unhappy.
By Daniel Gross
Updated Saturday, Aug. 14, 2010, at 7:06 AM ET

On Monday, Aug. 9, JetBlue flight attendant Steven Slater gave new meaning to the word "exit interview." Angered at the boorish behavior of a passenger, he picked up the intercom, loudly submitted his resignation, pulled the ripcord, grabbed two beers and slid down the escape chute.

The same day, a front-page Wall Street Journal article documented the plight of employers who were simply shocked that people weren't interested in the jobs they were offering. The aggrieved included a company in Illinois that wanted to pay skilled machinists a below-market $13 per hour (about $26,000 per year) and an airline based in Dubai that simply couldn't grasp why hordes of Americans weren't rushing to move halfway around the world and take up residence in a non-democratic emirate for the irresistible annual wage of … $30,000.
For people of a certain age, such anecdotes might evince something like nostalgia. It was 1976, a time of similar economic difficulty, when stressed-out newscaster, Howard Beale, played by Peter Finch, urged his viewers to stick their heads out the window and scream: "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore." Two years after Network appeared in the movie theaters, Johnny Paycheck had a hit with the country song "Take This Job and Shove It."
It may seem odd that signs of employee dissatisfaction should emerge at a time of high unemployment, but it's hardly surprising. That is because the two phenomena—the poor labor market and the sour mood of many workers—are actually connected. Employees are sick and tired of tough conditions and lowball offers from prospective employers.

CONTINUED
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#97  Postby Macdoc » Aug 15, 2010 2:16 pm

Good discussion guys.

High personal service can provide many jobs but the problem remains for the US that many are still considered menial while gamblers and predators in the financial/insurance sectors are over paid.....farmers and other small businesses who often run substantial enterprise employing many ( in Canada 60% are from the small biz sector ).

Even our most precious asset tho - the scientists in Canada live hand to mouth while public servants and financial sector/real estate sector get ridiculous wages for the work they do.

China has pursued both high tech, high intellect as well as infra structure rebuilding and providing basic housing etc....their biggest positive tho is willingness to strictly control predation......as Truman did as the US ramped up to WWII - he cleaned up the military procurement of predators and got the best and the brightest to work for a $1 a year.

Any attempt to do this in the US will flounder until affordable housing is dealt with and the gov is willing to stand up to predation and set examples by reducing it's own sucking off the public teat.

The US also has to - like empires in the past ( notably the British ) come to the realization the cost of a world military is prohibitive.

China spends a tiny amount on military and both Japan and Germany benefitted from the ban on military post WWII.

Obama had a shot at it but the US decision making is broken and corrupt beyond repair. It's getting pretty dark there...

Op-Ed Columnist - America Goes Dark - NYTimes.com
8 Aug 2010 ... Op-Ed Columnist. America Goes Dark. By PAUL KRUGMAN. Published: August 8, 2010 ... The lights are going out all over America — literally.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/09/opini ... ugman.html

He's not wrong....:(
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#98  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » Aug 15, 2010 3:45 pm

Macdoc wrote: Good discussion guys.

High personal service can provide many jobs but the problem remains for the US that many are still considered menial while gamblers and predators in the financial/insurance sectors are over paid.....farmers and other small businesses who often run substantial enterprise employing many ( in Canada 60% are from the small biz sector ).

Even our most precious asset tho - the scientists in Canada live hand to mouth while public servants and financial sector/real estate sector get ridiculous wages for the work they do.

China has pursued both high tech, high intellect as well as infra structure rebuilding and providing basic housing etc....their biggest positive tho is willingness to strictly control predation......as Truman did as the US ramped up to WWII - he cleaned up the military procurement of predators and got the best and the brightest to work for a $1 a year.

Not to nit pick but Truman didn't become the POTUS until 12 April 1945, when he assumed the office at the death of Franklin Roosevelt. At that point, War II was within a few short months of being concluded. The US ramped itself up to War II in 1940-43, with the big ramp up occuring in 1942-43.

I think you must have someone else in mind?

Macdoc wrote:
Any attempt to do this in the US will flounder until affordable housing is dealt with and the gov is willing to stand up to predation and set examples by reducing it's own sucking off the public teat.

The US also has to - like empires in the past ( notably the British ) come to the realization the cost of a world military is prohibitive.

China spends a tiny amount on military and both Japan and Germany benefitted from the ban on military post WWII.

Obama had a shot at it but the US decision making is broken and corrupt beyond repair. It's getting pretty dark there...

Op-Ed Columnist - America Goes Dark - NYTimes.com
8 Aug 2010 ... Op-Ed Columnist. America Goes Dark. By PAUL KRUGMAN. Published: August 8, 2010 ... The lights are going out all over America — literally.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/09/opini ... ugman.html

He's not wrong....:(

Krugman ends by saying:


And what about the economy’s future? Everything we know about economic growth says that a well-educated population and high-quality infrastructure are crucial. Emerging nations are making huge efforts to upgrade their roads, their ports and their schools. Yet in America we’re going backward.

How did we get to this point? It’s the logical consequence of three decades of antigovernment rhetoric, rhetoric that has convinced many voters that a dollar collected in taxes is always a dollar wasted, that the public sector can’t do anything right.

The antigovernment campaign has always been phrased in terms of opposition to waste and fraud — to checks sent to welfare queens driving Cadillacs, to vast armies of bureaucrats uselessly pushing paper around. But those were myths, of course; there was never remotely as much waste and fraud as the right claimed. And now that the campaign has reached fruition, we’re seeing what was actually in the firing line: services that everyone except the very rich need, services that government must provide or nobody will, like lighted streets, drivable roads and decent schooling for the public as a whole.

So the end result of the long campaign against government is that we’ve taken a disastrously wrong turn. America is now on the unlit, unpaved road to nowhere.

It seems clear that by "emerging nations" he means China, but he might also include others.

His idea of an "antigovernment campaign" is an intereting one and seems to comport with the facts and the evidence. We have been led to a crossroads at which a majority of the people despise the government and the government is powerless to act in the public interest. Talk about a no-win situation! And this in the midst of a horrific economic situation.

It's exceedingly difficult to correct a "disastrously wrong turn," especially in any kind of brief time period and most especially in a house that's as divided as this one, and we likely cannot make any progress at all until this "wrong turn" is corrected.

Where can things possibly go from here other other than further downhill? There's not a single bright light on the horizon that we might hope offers us a decent chance to recover and resume, but if there are any, I'd like to hear about them.

Anyone? :o
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Re: Third World America

#99  Postby Blood » Aug 15, 2010 4:10 pm

GreatApe wrote:Here's a "terrific" photo-journal from Time magazine on the decline of Detroit, a separate article on the issue written by David Frum (whose writing I greatly admire), and a link to Cheri Gay's book on the topic (as mentioned--and criticized--in the Frum piece and available on Amazon.com). All three are quite good; even if the reality of the topic is historically tragic and even if they offer a foreshadowing of things to come in other American cities.

http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0 ... 89,00.html



At least there was one good statistic from this grim survey:

St. Margaret Mary School
Many of the city's Catholic schools have been closed, though the churches they are affiliated with remain active.
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#100  Postby Dr. Kwaltz » Aug 15, 2010 4:50 pm

Many moons ago when I was a young man and was pondering over what to do for the rest of my life, one thing stood out like a sore thumb. The future was in high tech and not in production, already back then it was clear that none of the western countries would be able to compete with Asian and/or African production cost. The only thing I saw produced locally, was perishable items and high tech price-insensitive products and what I call brain products, e.g. were the cost is not associated with raw materials or with steady supply of power or work force but by intelligence.

I was thinking back then to go into Civil Engineering esp in oil but I decided against it because I thought then the future was too insecure in the fields.

Industrial scale production of consumer goods will never return to the US (or most of Europe for that matter, Germany being a shining exception) and those who do not have any expertise education but are doing dime a dozen jobs will have a very hard time and find themselves having little or no chance of remaining middle class. If your job so far has been in a factory or at a production line of some kind and have not required any skills, be prepared for decades out of work.
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