Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

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Re: Third World America

#61  Postby MoonLit » Aug 14, 2010 2:02 am

NineOneFour wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/americas-biggest-jobs-pro_b_679426.html

America's biggest -- and only major -- jobs program is the U.S. military.

Over 1,400,000 Americans are now on active duty; another 833,000 are in the reserves, many full time. Another 1,600,000 Americans work in companies that supply the military with everything from weapons to utensils. (I'm not even including all the foreign contractors employing non-US citizens.)

If we didn't have this giant military jobs program, the U.S. unemployment rate would be over 11.5 percent today instead of 9.5 percent.

And without our military jobs program personal incomes would be dropping faster. The Commerce Department reported Monday the only major metro areas where both net earnings and personal incomes rose last year were San Antonio, Texas, Virginia Beach, Virginia, and Washington, D.C. -- because all three have high concentrations of military and federal jobs.

This isn't an argument for more military spending. Just the opposite. Having a giant undercover military jobs program is an insane way to keep Americans employed. It creates jobs we don't need but we keep anyway because there's no honest alternative. We don't have an overt jobs program based on what's really needed.

CONTINUED


It would be even higher if there was no Job Corps as well.
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Re: Third World America

#62  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » Aug 14, 2010 2:18 am

Valden wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/americas-biggest-jobs-pro_b_679426.html

America's biggest -- and only major -- jobs program is the U.S. military.

Over 1,400,000 Americans are now on active duty; another 833,000 are in the reserves, many full time. Another 1,600,000 Americans work in companies that supply the military with everything from weapons to utensils. (I'm not even including all the foreign contractors employing non-US citizens.)

If we didn't have this giant military jobs program, the U.S. unemployment rate would be over 11.5 percent today instead of 9.5 percent.

And without our military jobs program personal incomes would be dropping faster. The Commerce Department reported Monday the only major metro areas where both net earnings and personal incomes rose last year were San Antonio, Texas, Virginia Beach, Virginia, and Washington, D.C. -- because all three have high concentrations of military and federal jobs.

This isn't an argument for more military spending. Just the opposite. Having a giant undercover military jobs program is an insane way to keep Americans employed. It creates jobs we don't need but we keep anyway because there's no honest alternative. We don't have an overt jobs program based on what's really needed.

CONTINUED

It would be even higher if there was no Job Corps as well.

The economy as we know it simply cannot generate enough jobs to keep unemployment at some reasonable level like five per cent. It's probably going to be ten per cent or better from now on and could easily trend higher if consumer spending doesn't get some kind of very big shot in the arm, which appears unlikely.

We're probably gonna have to get used to seeing tent cities and encampments of the unemployed in State and County Parks and people standing around street corners in hopes of being hired for some menial job. And eventually, this will affect crime rates, how could it not?

The country can only afford so many make work projects. Maybe we'll be forced to introduce modern renditions of the 1930's Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) or WPA, Work Projects Adminstration.
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#63  Postby NineOneFour » Aug 14, 2010 2:37 am

FACT-MAN-2 wrote:
Dr. Kwaltz wrote:I find it hysterical that Americans are concerned about some owners on the other side of the world but have no problems having all the crap they need for their daily lives come from China - go figure!

Well, that's George Bush and the Republicans for ya! :o


Now, wait a second. You don't understand the full horror of it.

I was fully prepared to endorse that point of view: that another country owning part of America's infrastructure was a sign of decline.

American Nationalism is so immersed in this culture it has even affected.....um....me.
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Re: Third World America

#64  Postby NineOneFour » Aug 14, 2010 2:37 am

Valden wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/americas-biggest-jobs-pro_b_679426.html

America's biggest -- and only major -- jobs program is the U.S. military.

Over 1,400,000 Americans are now on active duty; another 833,000 are in the reserves, many full time. Another 1,600,000 Americans work in companies that supply the military with everything from weapons to utensils. (I'm not even including all the foreign contractors employing non-US citizens.)

If we didn't have this giant military jobs program, the U.S. unemployment rate would be over 11.5 percent today instead of 9.5 percent.

And without our military jobs program personal incomes would be dropping faster. The Commerce Department reported Monday the only major metro areas where both net earnings and personal incomes rose last year were San Antonio, Texas, Virginia Beach, Virginia, and Washington, D.C. -- because all three have high concentrations of military and federal jobs.

This isn't an argument for more military spending. Just the opposite. Having a giant undercover military jobs program is an insane way to keep Americans employed. It creates jobs we don't need but we keep anyway because there's no honest alternative. We don't have an overt jobs program based on what's really needed.

CONTINUED


It would be even higher if there was no Job Corps as well.



Not to mention that they do not count prisoners either.
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Re: Third World America

#65  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » Aug 14, 2010 2:47 am

Interesting and relevant:


Social Security Keeps 20 Million Americans Out Of Poverty, Report Finds

By Laura Bassett
First Posted: 08-13-10 04:04 PM | Updated: 08-13-10 06:39 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/1 ... 81595.html

As Social Security approaches its 75th anniversary on Saturday, the program is playing an especially vital role in reducing poverty across America during the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression.

If benefits were to be significantly cut, 19.8 million more Americans would be thrust in poverty, according to a recent report by the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. In addition to supporting the elderly, Social Security is currently keeping more than 1 million children and more than 5 million adults below the age of 65 above the poverty line.

Cuts to Social Security would be especially devastating for older women, the report shows. While 11.9 percent of women over the age of 65 are currently below the poverty line, nearly half of them would be poor if they no longer received benefits.

Veronica Daniels, 62, of Houston, Texas, says a reduction in her Social Security benefits would be calamitous. An engineer with over 37 years of experience, Daniels lost her job in 2007 and has not been able to find steady work since. After blowing through most of her savings on a major surgery and dental emergency without the help of health insurance, she was forced to start collecting Social Security early to stay afloat.

"I wanted to wait until I was 66 to start collecting it, because I will lose about 25% of my benefits by doing it this way, but I had no choice," Daniels told HuffPost. "If the government cut my benefits right now, it would be horrible for me. I'm making just enough to cover basic expenses and save about a hundred dollars or so a month for medical emergencies. I can't really afford to be squeezed."

Daniels said she lost her house to foreclosure in 2009, and she now lives in a one-bedroom apartment in Houston with no sofa and only a small folding table to eat on. She worries that once the prices of food and housing and utilities go up, she will no longer be able to pay her modest rent.

continues ...
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Re: Third World America

#66  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » Aug 14, 2010 2:49 am

NineOneFour wrote:
Valden wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/americas-biggest-jobs-pro_b_679426.html

America's biggest -- and only major -- jobs program is the U.S. military.

Over 1,400,000 Americans are now on active duty; another 833,000 are in the reserves, many full time. Another 1,600,000 Americans work in companies that supply the military with everything from weapons to utensils. (I'm not even including all the foreign contractors employing non-US citizens.)

If we didn't have this giant military jobs program, the U.S. unemployment rate would be over 11.5 percent today instead of 9.5 percent.

And without our military jobs program personal incomes would be dropping faster. The Commerce Department reported Monday the only major metro areas where both net earnings and personal incomes rose last year were San Antonio, Texas, Virginia Beach, Virginia, and Washington, D.C. -- because all three have high concentrations of military and federal jobs.

This isn't an argument for more military spending. Just the opposite. Having a giant undercover military jobs program is an insane way to keep Americans employed. It creates jobs we don't need but we keep anyway because there's no honest alternative. We don't have an overt jobs program based on what's really needed.

CONTINUED

It would be even higher if there was no Job Corps as well.

Not to mention that they do not count prisoners either.

Of which, more than two million. :doh:
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When will large scale corporate capitalism and government metamorphose to embrace modern thinking and allow us to live sustainably?
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#67  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » Aug 14, 2010 2:54 am

NineOneFour wrote:
FACT-MAN-2 wrote:
Dr. Kwaltz wrote:I find it hysterical that Americans are concerned about some owners on the other side of the world but have no problems having all the crap they need for their daily lives come from China - go figure!

Well, that's George Bush and the Republicans for ya! :o

Now, wait a second. You don't understand the full horror of it.

I was fully prepared to endorse that point of view: that another country owning part of America's infrastructure was a sign of decline.

American Nationalism is so immersed in this culture it has even affected.....um....me.

Oh I think it is or would be a sign of decline when you can't afford to own your own infrastructure and sell it off to foreign interests that have zero allegiance to anything save for themselves and may not, for example, spend sufficient maintenance and upkeep money to satisfy actual needs.
Capitalism is obsolete, yet we keep dancing with its corpse.

When will large scale corporate capitalism and government metamorphose to embrace modern thinking and allow us to live sustainably?
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#68  Postby crank » Aug 14, 2010 4:28 am

FACT-MAN-2 wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:
FACT-MAN-2 wrote:
Dr. Kwaltz wrote:I find it hysterical that Americans are concerned about some owners on the other side of the world but have no problems having all the crap they need for their daily lives come from China - go figure!

Well, that's George Bush and the Republicans for ya! :o

Now, wait a second. You don't understand the full horror of it.

I was fully prepared to endorse that point of view: that another country owning part of America's infrastructure was a sign of decline.

American Nationalism is so immersed in this culture it has even affected.....um....me.

Oh I think it is or would be a sign of decline when you can't afford to own your own infrastructure and sell it off to foreign interests that have zero allegiance to anything save for themselves and may not, for example, spend sufficient maintenance and upkeep money to satisfy actual needs.

Let's sell almost everything, wait till they fix it up, and then nationalize everything. We can really be a third world country.
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#69  Postby mrjonno » Aug 14, 2010 11:33 am

Oh I think it is or would be a sign of decline when you can't afford to own your own infrastructure and sell it off to foreign interests that have zero allegiance to anything save for themselves and may not, for example, spend sufficient maintenance and upkeep money to satisfy actual needs.


I can assure you 'British' companies have no allegiance to the UK, they are there to make money same as any other company. Is it the role of goverment to ensure any company does not act against the British interest if it does business here. Most infrastructure in the UK is private these days but its still heavily regulated, if you want to run a power station in the UK you are required to supply power (even if its not temporary not profitable) by law.

Hey in the UK we use foreign nationals in the military who least initially arent allowed British citizenship even if they wanted it
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#70  Postby NineOneFour » Aug 14, 2010 12:28 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/opini ... ef=opinion

Fire and Imagination
By BOB HERBERT
Published: August 13, 2010

The Obama administration seems to be feeling sorry for itself. Robert Gibbs, the president’s press secretary, is perturbed that Mr. Obama is not getting more hosannas from liberals.

Spare me. The country is a mess. The economy is horrendous, and millions of American families are running out of ammunition in their fight against destitution. Steadily increasing numbers of middle-class families, who never thought they’d be seeking charity, have been showing up at food pantries.

The war in Afghanistan, with its dreadful human toll and debilitating drain on the nation’s financial resources, is proceeding as poorly as ever. As The Times reported on Friday, an ambitious operation that was supposed to showcase the progress of the Afghan Army turned into a tragic, humiliating debacle.

And while schools are hemorrhaging resources because of budget meltdowns, and teachers are losing jobs, and libraries are finding it more and more difficult to remain open, American youngsters are falling further behind their peers in other developed countries in their graduation rates from colleges and universities.

CONTINUED
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#71  Postby NineOneFour » Aug 14, 2010 12:31 pm

• Average annual government expenditures since 2005 on military research and development: $77,000,000,000

• Average expenditures on energy research and development: $5,000,000,000

:coffee:
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#72  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » Aug 14, 2010 12:33 pm

Here's a one-time CEO in Silicon Valley's take on the situation.


The Jobs Crisis: What Hit Us?

By Bob Burnett, Berkeley writer, retired Silicon Valley executive
Posted: August 13, 2010 09:20 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-burne ... 81148.html

The US is stuck in an economic quagmire featuring near ten percent unemployment. As politicians argue about the solution -- massive tax cuts or increases in Federal spending -- what's missing is a succinct analysis of the problem. Why has America lost 8 million jobs?

The roots of the jobs crisis stretch back to the Ronald Reagan presidency when conservative economic ideology began to dominate American political discourse. At the forefront of this philosophy were three malignant notions: helping the rich get richer will inevitably help everyone else, "a rising tide lifts all boats;" markets are inherently self correcting and therefore there's no need for government regulation; and the US does not need an economic strategy because that's a natural consequence of the free market.

What followed was a thirty-year period where America's working families were abandoned in favor of the rich. Inequality rose as middle class income and wealth declined. As corporate power increased, unions were systematically undermined. As CEO salaries soared, fewer families earned living wages.

Conservative ideology produced a warped and brittle US economy, where more than two-thirds of our GDP was housing related: building, buying, and furnishing new homes or borrowing against existing homes in order to maintain a decent standard of living. When the credit bubble burst, the debt-based consumption model failed, taking down first the housing sector and then the entire economy, resulting in catastrophic job losses.

In order to be sustainable, the US economy has to generate 125,000 jobs each month. (To bring unemployment down to acceptable levels -- below 7 percent -- the US economy needs to generate 300,000 jobs each month for the next three years.) For this to happen, there have to be three positive conditions.

First, consumers have to be willing to spend money. Regardless of the conservative ideology, the US economy depends upon steady consumption by working Americans. The Reagan Republican theory incorrectly assumes that rich folks buying yachts and vacation homes catalyzes the consumer economy. Nonetheless, wealthy Americans have as much income as they have ever had but their purchases of Ferraris or diamonds has not been sufficient to boost the economy. Average Americans aren't consuming because they either don't have the money or are saving it because they are fearful.

continued...

Mr. Burnett goes on to write that new jobs have to be decent jobs paying a living wage, but unfortunately, as he notes, the Associated Press reports that of the 630,000 jobs created in 2010, 81 percent are low-paying service-sector positions, which he says is "the sad backdrop to terrible unemployment data."

Since the Reagan presidency the number of decent jobs has steadily eroded. When a worker retires from a GM assembly line, and a job that pays good wages, he isn't replaced by his son or daughter; they go to work at McDonalds. There was an under-acknowledged "structural adjustment" that meant the US consumer economy could not function unless average Americans went deeply in debt: borrowed up to the limit on their credit cards or used up their home equity.

Mr. Burnett's main thesis is that it's necessary to understand what went wrong with the US economy because fundamental changes are required to deal with the jobs crisis ... yet so far the political rhetoric has been underwhelming. Republicans blame unemployment on the policies of the Obama Administration and argue the solution is to cut taxes, particularly for the wealthy. Democrats blame unemployment on the policies of the Bush Administration and argue the solution is to increase Federal spending.

The New York Times correctly condemned both approaches noting that Republican policies produced the current economic decline and the "cut taxes to solve all problems" clearly does not work. The Times also described the Democratic approach as timid, failing to attack the systemic nature of the problem.

He insists that America has economic cancer and radical surgery is required. First, there has to be a massive redistribution of income by increasing taxes on both the wealthy and financial institutions (particularly those that were at the heart of 2008's economic meltdown).

Second, there has to be a second stimulus package that not only supports America's teachers and public safety workers but also strengthens the US infrastructure, in general. It's not logical to propose that American businesses provide better jobs without also ensuring that our schools produce workers who can meet employers' needs.

Third, the Federal government has to be involved in economic policy. The last thirty years has demonstrated that it's insane to assume the free market will do this. What we've learned is that the market follows the path of least resistance and dictates economic policy solely based on making ever more money for a greedy cadre of big bankers. Creating wealth for a handful of CEOs isn't consistent with the national interest. What are needed now are economic policies that produce decent jobs for average Americans.

But is that something we can expect to occur? If it doesn't, the decline toward third world status in income distribution will continue and it will persist and that will lead to things we probably can't begin to imagine.
Capitalism is obsolete, yet we keep dancing with its corpse.

When will large scale corporate capitalism and government metamorphose to embrace modern thinking and allow us to live sustainably?
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#73  Postby NineOneFour » Aug 14, 2010 12:36 pm

FACT-MAN-2 wrote:Here's a one-time CEO in Silicon Valley's take on the situation.


The Jobs Crisis: What Hit Us?

By Bob Burnett, Berkeley writer, retired Silicon Valley executive
Posted: August 13, 2010 09:20 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-burne ... 81148.html

The US is stuck in an economic quagmire featuring near ten percent unemployment. As politicians argue about the solution -- massive tax cuts or increases in Federal spending -- what's missing is a succinct analysis of the problem. Why has America lost 8 million jobs?

The roots of the jobs crisis stretch back to the Ronald Reagan presidency when conservative economic ideology began to dominate American political discourse. At the forefront of this philosophy were three malignant notions: helping the rich get richer will inevitably help everyone else, "a rising tide lifts all boats;" markets are inherently self correcting and therefore there's no need for government regulation; and the US does not need an economic strategy because that's a natural consequence of the free market.

What followed was a thirty-year period where America's working families were abandoned in favor of the rich. Inequality rose as middle class income and wealth declined. As corporate power increased, unions were systematically undermined. As CEO salaries soared, fewer families earned living wages.

Conservative ideology produced a warped and brittle US economy, where more than two-thirds of our GDP was housing related: building, buying, and furnishing new homes or borrowing against existing homes in order to maintain a decent standard of living. When the credit bubble burst, the debt-based consumption model failed, taking down first the housing sector and then the entire economy, resulting in catastrophic job losses.

In order to be sustainable, the US economy has to generate 125,000 jobs each month. (To bring unemployment down to acceptable levels -- below 7 percent -- the US economy needs to generate 300,000 jobs each month for the next three years.) For this to happen, there have to be three positive conditions.

First, consumers have to be willing to spend money. Regardless of the conservative ideology, the US economy depends upon steady consumption by working Americans. The Reagan Republican theory incorrectly assumes that rich folks buying yachts and vacation homes catalyzes the consumer economy. Nonetheless, wealthy Americans have as much income as they have ever had but their purchases of Ferraris or diamonds has not been sufficient to boost the economy. Average Americans aren't consuming because they either don't have the money or are saving it because they are fearful.

continued...

Mr. Burnett goes on to write that new jobs have to be decent jobs paying a living wage, but unfortunately, as he notes, the Associated Press reports that of the 630,000 jobs created in 2010, 81 percent are low-paying service-sector positions, which he says is "the sad backdrop to terrible unemployment data."

Since the Reagan presidency the number of decent jobs has steadily eroded. When a worker retires from a GM assembly line, and a job that pays good wages, he isn't replaced by his son or daughter; they go to work at McDonalds. There was an under-acknowledged "structural adjustment" that meant the US consumer economy could not function unless average Americans went deeply in debt: borrowed up to the limit on their credit cards or used up their home equity.

Mr. Burnett's main thesis is that it's necessary to understand what went wrong with the US economy because fundamental changes are required to deal with the jobs crisis ... yet so far the political rhetoric has been underwhelming. Republicans blame unemployment on the policies of the Obama Administration and argue the solution is to cut taxes, particularly for the wealthy. Democrats blame unemployment on the policies of the Bush Administration and argue the solution is to increase Federal spending.

The New York Times correctly condemned both approaches noting that Republican policies produced the current economic decline and the "cut taxes to solve all problems" clearly does not work. The Times also described the Democratic approach as timid, failing to attack the systemic nature of the problem.

He insists that America has economic cancer and radical surgery is required. First, there has to be a massive redistribution of income by increasing taxes on both the wealthy and financial institutions (particularly those that were at the heart of 2008's economic meltdown).

Second, there has to be a second stimulus package that not only supports America's teachers and public safety workers but also strengthens the US infrastructure, in general. It's not logical to propose that American businesses provide better jobs without also ensuring that our schools produce workers who can meet employers' needs.

Third, the Federal government has to be involved in economic policy. The last thirty years has demonstrated that it's insane to assume the free market will do this. What we've learned is that the market follows the path of least resistance and dictates economic policy solely based on making ever more money for a greedy cadre of big bankers. Creating wealth for a handful of CEOs isn't consistent with the national interest. What are needed now are economic policies that produce decent jobs for average Americans.

But is that something we can expect to occur? If it doesn't, the decline toward third world status in income distribution will continue and it will persist and that will lead to things we probably can't begin to imagine.



Well, Burnett and I am on the same page.

Massive income shift, massive infrastructure upgrade, massive government spending while slashing the military budget, and massive economic planning.
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#74  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » Aug 14, 2010 12:51 pm

mrjonno wrote:
Oh I think it is or would be a sign of decline when you can't afford to own your own infrastructure and sell it off to foreign interests that have zero allegiance to anything save for themselves and may not, for example, spend sufficient maintenance and upkeep money to satisfy actual needs.

I can assure you 'British' companies have no allegiance to the UK, they are there to make money same as any other company. Is it the role of goverment to ensure any company does not act against the British interest if it does business here. Most infrastructure in the UK is private these days but its still heavily regulated, if you want to run a power station in the UK you are required to supply power (even if its not temporary not profitable) by law.

Hey in the UK we use foreign nationals in the military who least initially arent allowed British citizenship even if they wanted it

Yeah, they do the same thing in the US too.

But the difference between domesic ownership of infrastructure in the US versus the UK is that in America it's nearly all held in public hands directly, very little of it is privately held. Hence it is under the public's control and public management and can be effectively maintained to serve real needs, including the needs of national security.

Whereas, if it were sold off to corporations, domestic or foreign, Americans would be exchanging a known for an unknown, and that's probably not a good choice. Infrastructure in the US reflects a public investment. There is no logical rationale for selling it off to private parties, the only real gain of which would be cash, and likely not in amounts that would reflect good returns on the investment the public has made ... because private entities wouldn't be all gaga about paying a decent market price, they'd want things for a song, otherwise, no dice.

IF America were to choose to sell off its assets represented in its infrastructure holdings it would be a sign of decline because they'd be converting physical assets into liquid cash and probably at prices that would not reflect good returns; the cash would disappear soon enough, leaving the country with a big ? in terms of whether its infrastructure would be kept up and maintained in good working order and not simply used up and worn out for profit.
Capitalism is obsolete, yet we keep dancing with its corpse.

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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#75  Postby andyx1205 » Aug 14, 2010 1:04 pm

Obama's Weekly Address: Honoring Social Security, Not Privatizing It
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=390CWyYkH3M[/youtube]

Now's the time, Mr. Obama, to stop being nice and reaching out a hand that will never be shaken. Or in simple terms....

Now's the time to grow a pair.
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#76  Postby Roger Cooke » Aug 14, 2010 1:09 pm

FACT-MAN-2 wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:
FACT-MAN-2 wrote:
Dr. Kwaltz wrote:I find it hysterical that Americans are concerned about some owners on the other side of the world but have no problems having all the crap they need for their daily lives come from China - go figure!

Well, that's George Bush and the Republicans for ya! :o

Now, wait a second. You don't understand the full horror of it.

I was fully prepared to endorse that point of view: that another country owning part of America's infrastructure was a sign of decline.

American Nationalism is so immersed in this culture it has even affected.....um....me.

Oh I think it is or would be a sign of decline when you can't afford to own your own infrastructure and sell it off to foreign interests that have zero allegiance to anything save for themselves and may not, for example, spend sufficient maintenance and upkeep money to satisfy actual needs.


That's the biggest sign of decline, I think. I remember the outrage when London Bridge was purchased by an American some decades ago.

The pride of our nation used to be in its Interstate Highway System (a colossally wasteful approach to transportation, built, as we now know, so that the trucking industry could put the railroads out of business---anyone who thinks Google and Verizon will protect Internet access for the casual user should note how the heavy trucks occupy and destroy this publicly funded resource and make it crowded and dangerous for the person in a small car, but that's a derail). But large parts of it are now falling into ruin. The bridge collapse in Minneapolis last year was just a more prominent marker than we normally see. The Crown Point Bridge joining Vermont and New York across Lake Champlain had to be closed and blown up last fall, causing many who commuted to work across it to drive hours out of their way. A ferry boat has been provided to ease part of the burden while a new bridge is being built, but it of course has nothing like the capacity of the bridge, and the Lake does freeze over in most winters.
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#77  Postby Roger Cooke » Aug 14, 2010 1:17 pm

If I might inject a small ray of hope: Democracies do come back from ruin. Britain was essentially bankrupt at the end of World War II, yet it recovered and adapted to a smaller role on the international stage. The US has a history of intellectual isolation that is very noticeable if you talk in any depth with an American who hasn't been outside the US (like George Bush before he became President). It may be more difficult for Americans to accept that they are no longer Number One, Top Gun, the Big Kahuna, etc., etc., but eventually they will adapt. There's a lot of vitality in the US; it just needs to be cured of its illusions. But it may be that things aren't bad enough yet. Most Americans, like stock market investors in 1929, still seem to believe that things will soon get back to normal (by which they mean the hollow prosperity and the standard of living they have been enjoying but not earning). It's going to be another year or two. Perhaps they won't truly get it until they elect some idiot Republican as President in 2012 and discover that making the top 1% even filthier-rich than they already are doesn't provide full employment.
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#78  Postby mrjonno » Aug 14, 2010 1:43 pm

But the difference between domesic ownership of infrastructure in the US versus the UK is that in America it's nearly all held in public hands directly, very little of it is privately held. Hence it is under the public's control and public management and can be effectively maintained to serve real needs, including the needs of national security


Confused you saying power stations, telecomms companies, ports, airports etc are nationalised in the US, owned by the state?. It used to be like that in the 70's in the UK but everything is privatised these days I was pretty sure the US did the same a long time ago?
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Re: Evidence for the Decline of America (retitled)

#79  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » Aug 14, 2010 4:38 pm

mrjonno wrote:
But the difference between domesic ownership of infrastructure in the US versus the UK is that in America it's nearly all held in public hands directly, very little of it is privately held. Hence it is under the public's control and public management and can be effectively maintained to serve real needs, including the needs of national security

Confused you saying power stations, telecomms companies, ports, airports etc are nationalised in the US, owned by the state?. It used to be like that in the 70's in the UK but everything is privatised these days I was pretty sure the US did the same a long time ago?

Telecomm companies in the US are all privately held; some of the infrastructure they use are publicly held, like major segments of the Internet backbone for example.

While many power generating plants, especially hydropower like Coulee Dam and Hoover Dam and Bonneveille Dam and the dams that comprise the TVA, are publicly held, many non-hydropower generating plants are typically privately held, but large parts of the indfrastructures they use are publicly held, e.g. transmission lines.

Most (if not all) major airports and port facilities are publicly held.
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Re: Third World America

#80  Postby MoonLit » Aug 14, 2010 5:50 pm

NineOneFour wrote:
Valden wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/americas-biggest-jobs-pro_b_679426.html

America's biggest -- and only major -- jobs program is the U.S. military.

Over 1,400,000 Americans are now on active duty; another 833,000 are in the reserves, many full time. Another 1,600,000 Americans work in companies that supply the military with everything from weapons to utensils. (I'm not even including all the foreign contractors employing non-US citizens.)

If we didn't have this giant military jobs program, the U.S. unemployment rate would be over 11.5 percent today instead of 9.5 percent.

And without our military jobs program personal incomes would be dropping faster. The Commerce Department reported Monday the only major metro areas where both net earnings and personal incomes rose last year were San Antonio, Texas, Virginia Beach, Virginia, and Washington, D.C. -- because all three have high concentrations of military and federal jobs.

This isn't an argument for more military spending. Just the opposite. Having a giant undercover military jobs program is an insane way to keep Americans employed. It creates jobs we don't need but we keep anyway because there's no honest alternative. We don't have an overt jobs program based on what's really needed.

CONTINUED


It would be even higher if there was no Job Corps as well.



Not to mention that they do not count prisoners either.


Indeed.

There are currently 115 Job Corps centers across the country. Not sure how many students are housed altogether, but at my center, there's over 220 that live in the dorms.

I'm sure everyone here can imagine how much more bad the housing crisis would become if Job Corps were to be completely shut down. Many students have no homes to return too (such as myself) and would be homeless if it were not for the centers.

ETA: Forgot to mention, many students are court ordered to be at the center. If even one were to be closed, they'd either be moved to a new center, sent home (if they have one) or sent to prison. For many, that's a frightning thought.
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