Strontium Dog wrote:
So far as nationalist socialists are concerned, they're lucky that people draw the line at merely lying (or more accurately, truthfully relaying the contents of a confidential memo) about them.

Of course Carmichael's lie wasn't releasing the memo, it was lying straight to a Channel4 camera when asked if he knew anything about it. When found out by the (handily delayed) civil service investigation, he admitted he lied.

He's a liar. But that's cool with you, I get it.

mrjonno wrote:

chairman bill wrote:

Strontium Dog wrote:So far as nationalist socialists are concerned ...

This reeks of some deniable attempt to link the SNP with the Nazis, except that we all know that 'socialism' was only included in the latter's name to try to convince the working people that the party was on their side. Still, when you've nothing else to support your argument ...

They are nearer Italian fascists, who didnt really care about your race or religion as long as you were Italian and everyone else was the problem.

They have exactly the same people voting for them as UKIP the poor underclass who want to blame the English (or the nicer term 'Westminister Elite') for all their problems. If you define yourself by your nationality you are a fascist period

You've claimed this before, but it's just ignorance, or dishonesty. You should surely realise 50% of the electorate in Scotland voted for SNP, but 50% of Scotland are not "poor underclass who blame the English".

mrjonno wrote:(or the nicer term 'Westminister Elite')

Ah, this is fucking fascinating. So SNP say "Westminster Elite", but rather than take it at face value, you sneer that it must mean "The English".

So Andy Burnham is an anti English bigot then?

“This sense of us as a Westminster elite,” he frets. “Really not on a level with people, not understanding the lives of people who've traditionally voted for us. That has to change.”

Labour MP claims 'Westminster elite' of politicians think northerners are thick

A 'Westminster elite' of MPs with little real-world experience thinks northerners “don’t know too much”, a Labour MP has said.

Ian Lavery, MP for Wansbeck in Northumberland, was recorded making the remarks at a fringe event at a conference organised by left-wing think tank Class.

What about Dan Hodges? Anti English bigot?

It’s been another tough week for the Westminster elite. At 8.00pm on Wednesday evening, those of us who live within the cozy confines of the Westminster bubble were as one. Nick Clegg had won his debate with Nigel Farage.

Yeeeeeees. Westminster Elite = English, sure.

CarlPierce wrote:I don't sink to the Labour fan-boys tactic here of focusing on the messenger rather than the message or we would just be chatting about coke and hookers on the Labour thread.

Do you or do you not understand that Carmichael tried to manipulate an election by spreading damaging lies about a rival?

mrjonno wrote:

chairman bill wrote:

Strontium Dog wrote:So far as nationalist socialists are concerned ...

This reeks of some deniable attempt to link the SNP with the Nazis, except that we all know that 'socialism' was only included in the latter's name to try to convince the working people that the party was on their side. Still, when you've nothing else to support your argument ...

They are nearer Italian fascists, who didnt really care about your race or religion as long as you were Italian and everyone else was the problem.

They have exactly the same people voting for them as UKIP the poor underclass who want to blame the English (or the nicer term 'Westminister Elite') for all their problems. If you define yourself by your nationality you are a fascist period

Your disconect from political reality is profound

Your disconect from political reality is profound

No I just think nationalism (and extremism in general) makes left and right wing irrelevant

ronmcd wrote:

Strontium Dog wrote:So far as nationalist socialists are concerned, they're lucky that people draw the line at merely lying (or more accurately, truthfully relaying the contents of a confidential memo) about them.

Of course Carmichael's lie wasn't releasing the memo, it was lying straight to a Channel4 camera when asked if he knew anything about it. When found out by the (handily delayed) civil service investigation, he admitted he lied.

He's a liar. But that's cool with you, I get it.

I just think it's funny that you believe that Salmond and Sturgeon have never lied. I can't decide if it's naivety or just plain partisanship.

mcgruff wrote:Do you or do you not understand that Carmichael tried to manipulate an election by spreading damaging lies about a rival?

He did no such thing, of course.

Strontium Dog wrote:

ronmcd wrote:

Strontium Dog wrote:So far as nationalist socialists are concerned, they're lucky that people draw the line at merely lying (or more accurately, truthfully relaying the contents of a confidential memo) about them.

Of course Carmichael's lie wasn't releasing the memo, it was lying straight to a Channel4 camera when asked if he knew anything about it. When found out by the (handily delayed) civil service investigation, he admitted he lied.

He's a liar. But that's cool with you, I get it.

I just think it's funny that you believe that Salmond and Sturgeon have never lied. I can't decide if it's naivety or just plain partisanship.

Did I say they hadn't? I'm not aware they have lied, but let's cut to the chase : I've lied. You've lied. We all have.

The context of the lie is quite important, no? In this case, Fozzie Bear instructed a civil servant to leak a document to damage Nicola Sturgeon, done a day or so after Sturgeon had owned the national leaders debate. So far, so normal, in politics, I suppose. But when he was asked directly if he knew anything about it, and this was within the purdah period of a GENERAL ELECTION, he lied. No obfuscation, no weasel words, he lied. And weeks later, after he had been returned by voters who would likely have rejected him if he had admitted it at the time, he was forced to admit the lie, and apologise in writing to Sturgeon.

He did affect the election outcome, in his own seat, at the very least.

We all accuse politicians of lying, often when what they have done is actually been selective, knowingly. But a barefaced lie, to camera, in a GE, to smear one politician, and then have to admit just after the election he had lied?

Strontium Dog wrote:

mcgruff wrote:Do you or do you not understand that Carmichael tried to manipulate an election by spreading damaging lies about a rival?

He did no such thing, of course.

Actually he did, but the only reason he likely wont be thrown out under the existing rules is because he was smearing a politician who he wasn't standing against. He smeared the leader, not the SNP candidate.

And that technicality will likely save his job. But his reputation is gone.

edit: he WOULD likely be toast if the subject of the leak had been his constituency rival, I understand.

The fact that Nicola Sturgeon was the target only makes it worse. The impact of a lie about SNP strategy could potentially be much greater than a lie made against a single MP.

One of the most precious things for a functioning democracy is good, accurate information.

ronmcd wrote:And that technicality will likely save his job.

Yes, the technicality of not actually committing the claimed offence generally does preclude punishment for said offence.

You would actually think the LibDems(RIP) is a credible party. They scarped their arses through the '50's and '60's and just survived with a few Labour traitors and now back to arse scraping.

The LibDems(RIP) are dead but of course certain people find it almost impossible to accept the inevitable.

Your party is FA. Get it understand it? Good. LibDems(RIP).

Scot Dutchy wrote:You would actually think the LibDems(RIP) is a credible party. They scarped their arses through the '50's and '60's and just survived with a few Labour traitors and now back to arse scraping.

The LibDems(RIP) are dead but of course certain people find it almost impossible to accept the inevitable.

Your party is FA. Get it understand it? Good. LibDems(RIP).

Well Labour might be going out of their way to revive it by self destructing

Strontium Dog wrote:

ronmcd wrote:And that technicality will likely save his job.

Yes, the technicality of not actually committing the claimed offence generally does preclude punishment for said offence.

Which offence? The leak, or the lie to Channel 4?

If he had leaked the document to smear his constituency opponent, he would likely be toast under the law. He is probably safe as the leak was about someone other than his constituency opponent. But that wasn't the lie, was it. The lie was hiding the fact he authorised the leak just before the election, then admitted it once re-elected.

Your attempts to pretend he did nothing wrong are ... not a surprise, I guess.

Just noticed this, apologies if it's been mentioned/laughed at before:

Strontium Dog wrote:Criticising Nick Clegg for not getting every Lib Dem policy enacted in government is like criticising Oskar Schindler for not saving every Jew in Germany

Holy mother of jebus.

All I see are more of SD's pathetic attempts to obfuscate, wriggle, dissemble, and generally play fast & loose with the truth, in order to defend the indefensible. Frankly, it brings the LibDems into disrepute.

Surely it merely cements them in the disrepute that they are already irretrievably mired in

Strontium Dog wrote: I can't decide if it's naivety or just plain partisanship.

Said the much celebrated voice of balance and fairness.

Did you type that with a straight face?

chairman bill wrote:All I see are more of SD's pathetic attempts to obfuscate, wriggle, dissemble, and generally play fast & loose with the truth, in order to defend the indefensible. Frankly, it brings the LibDems into disrepute.

I am pointing out that the case against him is risible. Which it is.

I literally couldn't care whether he authorised a leak or not. Though being on the side of honesty and openness, I'm rather glad he did, so we're fully acquainted with the embarrassing truth about Sturgeon.