You didn't ask about racism.

Hermit wrote:

Cito di Pense wrote:I mean, how would we detect a 'racist' angle, unless we, like, needed racial categories to right historical wrongs?

We wouldn't. Next question: Who created racial categories? Racists, or opponents of racism?

It's a question the answer to which you should not assume you know.

Hermit wrote:That is not racism in terms I understand the word.

Well, as long as you qualify it with some weaseling about how you understand the term, we can ignore your opinion, unless you're some kind of world-class scholar in such matters, in which case, what the fuck are you doing hanging about here?

Hermit wrote:without a moment's thought about whether that is OK.

And we would know that it's OK or not OK by means of a plebiscite. Different strokes for different folks. The notion that a philosophical principle trumps a plebiscite is the preference of those with philosophical principles. In practical terms: Department of Tautology Department. When we actually reach a point where your life depends on your philosophical principles, then we learn something. Otherwise, so it goes on the internet.

That is a fantastic explanation how unconscious bias and our moral sense of self contributes to racism.

felltoearth wrote:That is a fantastic explanation how unconscious bias and our moral sense of self contributes to racism.

I dunno. It feels a bit ironic to have an argument with a "white person" over whether or not I'm exhibiting "unconscious bias". My bias, if any, is quite conscious, and directed toward that person's deployment of the psychobabble of "unconscious bias". When racism is portrayed in these dimensions, it might appear that my attitude toward the argument is also racist, but it isn't. My bias is against scholars of race. That's the theoretical sort of 'racism' the video is talking about: It's racist even to push back at moral theories delivered by scholars of race, the professors, or their student acolytes, and in this case, it's presumably sexist, as well, since the lecturer is female. Tautologically speaking, what makes scholars authorities is their scholarship, but then, they're scholars of the psychobabble of "unconscious bias", among other things. "The unconscious" and "sense of self" are neither here nor there, aren't they? They're llike God, though, immanent, yet immaterial.

I detest the whole idea of people confessing that we are all racist/sexist etc etc because we are brought up in an environment immersed in it. The same can be said of religion, yet many were brought up in religious environments without ever believing. Your personal reaction to your immersed environment could very well be total rejection, or gradual enlightenment, or anything in between. You can only really say that your immersed environment very likely had a large influence on your thinking, not what direction that influence took.

When you assert that EVERYONE has the issues you confess having yourself it reminds me very much of the religious assertions that we are all unworthy sinners who should repent and beg forgiveness. I know such people mean well, but they shouldn't presume to speak for everyone. Individuals remain individuals, and reactions to environment differ individually.

When it's science, everyone's all like, "We'll we're steeped in biases and science gotta control for that blah blah blah. Dunning-Kruger yadda yadda." But when it's racism, everyone's all like, "Whoah, whoah, whoah, all that bias talk is bordering on original sin."

Do you people hear yourselves? You sound like the Spice Girls after Ginger left. This isn't Wannabe. This isn't even Spice Up Your Life.

Religious belief =/= entrenched, systemic bias.

Besides, all of us living in religious communities are still influenced by religion regardless of whether we're believers.

You don't have to be a proud racist to be influenced by a racist society you grew up in. You might, on its surface, be appalled by racism while still harbouring ideas and feelings that are racist.

Spinozasgalt wrote:When it's science, everyone's all like, "We'll we're steeped in biases and science gotta control for that blah blah blah.

When it is science, it is important to attempt to control for ALL POSSIBLE biases to arrive at objective data. There is no assertion that bias is inevitable.

That is very different from alleging that everyone of one race group is biased in the same direction by their upbringing, and they're all fooling themselves with the wrong definitions if they claim not to be.

Spinozasgalt wrote:When it's science, everyone's all like, "We'll we're steeped in biases and science gotta control for that blah blah blah. Dunning-Kruger yadda yadda." But when it's racism, everyone's all like, "Whoah, whoah, whoah, all that bias talk is bordering on original sin."

Do you people hear yourselves? You sound like the Spice Girls after Ginger left. This isn't Wannabe. This isn't even Spice Up Your Life.

I'll happily talk about what I'm steeped in. I'll have a look at any bias that's not, well, unconscious, because I ain't lookin' for the invisible man. So, when you want to illustrate a bias, come with something better than that.



I can't hear perfectly well, but you can test me against some average, and I told you the kind of shit I'm biased to sneer at.

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:You might, on its surface, be appalled by racism while still harbouring ideas and feelings that are racist.

And it's up to you to detect it, if you think it might be hiding under the bed, but you do have to get out of bed to check for it. As I say, I'll happily tell you what my biases are. They turn out not to be biases against any stuff that's not hiding under the bed. If you have a recording of someone exhibiting racist behavior, I'll happily agree that you recorded someone exhibiting racist behavior. As far as what we're harboring, well, that's just the product of an impure soul that's been steeped in whatever, and we all have that, don't we?

I like some people, and I don't like others, and it's up to you to predict which is which. Want universal peace and love? Go with Jebus.

zulumoose wrote:I detest the whole idea of people confessing that we are all racist/sexist etc etc because we are brought up in an environment immersed in it. The same can be said of religion, yet many were brought up in religious environments without ever believing. Your personal reaction to your immersed environment could very well be total rejection, or gradual enlightenment, or anything in between. You can only really say that your immersed environment very likely had a large influence on your thinking, not what direction that influence took.

When you assert that EVERYONE has the issues you confess having yourself it reminds me very much of the religious assertions that we are all unworthy sinners who should repent and beg forgiveness. I know such people mean well, but they shouldn't presume to speak for everyone. Individuals remain individuals, and reactions to environment differ individually.

You are a fine example of what the video is talking about.
Why do you think you are so exceptionally unbiased and so much better than the rest of us?
Did you have a particularly difficult religious upbringing that has left deep scars on your psyche? But wait, aren't you an atheist? Doesn't your conscious rejection of religious belief mean you are entirely untouched by it all so you harbour no bias against religion today? It doesn't sound that way. Maybe you just haven't recognised every crumb of bias.

Cito di Pense wrote:I'll happily talk about what I'm steeped in. I'll have a look at any bias that's not, well, unconscious, because I ain't lookin' for the invisible man. So, when you want to illustrate a bias, come with something better than that.

You'll have a look at those aspect of yourself that you already know about? Well good for you. That won't take long will it?

GrahamH wrote:

zulumoose wrote:I detest the whole idea of people confessing that we are all racist/sexist etc etc because we are brought up in an environment immersed in it. The same can be said of religion, yet many were brought up in religious environments without ever believing. Your personal reaction to your immersed environment could very well be total rejection, or gradual enlightenment, or anything in between. You can only really say that your immersed environment very likely had a large influence on your thinking, not what direction that influence took.

When you assert that EVERYONE has the issues you confess having yourself it reminds me very much of the religious assertions that we are all unworthy sinners who should repent and beg forgiveness. I know such people mean well, but they shouldn't presume to speak for everyone. Individuals remain individuals, and reactions to environment differ individually.

You are a fine example of what the video is talking about.
Why do you think you are so exceptionally unbiased and so much better than the rest of us?
Did you have a particularly difficult religious upbringing that has left deep scars on your psyche? But wait, aren't you an atheist? Doesn't your conscious rejection of religious belief mean you are entirely untouched by it all so you harbour no bias against religion today? It doesn't sound that way. Maybe you just haven't recognised every crumb of bias.

What a ridiculous strawman. I didn't once mention myself.

You all need to come to me - I scored right down the middle on treating everyone equaly.

Those arguing against unconscious bias are simply stupid.

GrahamH wrote:

Cito di Pense wrote:I'll happily talk about what I'm steeped in. I'll have a look at any bias that's not, well, unconscious, because I ain't lookin' for the invisible man. So, when you want to illustrate a bias, come with something better than that.

You'll have a look at those aspect of yourself that you already know about? Well good for you. That won't take long will it?

Well, it looks like racism is the CMBR of society, then. Glad to know the Truth, and it seems pointless to deny it, and in fact, I don't.

I'm just asking how anyone knows it affects me without assuming it affects me. What a powerful conclusion that is, to assume your conclusion. Works on god-botherers, though. Easy pickings.

zulumoose wrote:

GrahamH wrote:

zulumoose wrote:I detest the whole idea of people confessing that we are all racist/sexist etc etc because we are brought up in an environment immersed in it. The same can be said of religion, yet many were brought up in religious environments without ever believing. Your personal reaction to your immersed environment could very well be total rejection, or gradual enlightenment, or anything in between. You can only really say that your immersed environment very likely had a large influence on your thinking, not what direction that influence took.

When you assert that EVERYONE has the issues you confess having yourself it reminds me very much of the religious assertions that we are all unworthy sinners who should repent and beg forgiveness. I know such people mean well, but they shouldn't presume to speak for everyone. Individuals remain individuals, and reactions to environment differ individually.

You are a fine example of what the video is talking about.
Why do you think you are so exceptionally unbiased and so much better than the rest of us?
Did you have a particularly difficult religious upbringing that has left deep scars on your psyche? But wait, aren't you an atheist? Doesn't your conscious rejection of religious belief mean you are entirely untouched by it all so you harbour no bias against religion today? It doesn't sound that way. Maybe you just haven't recognised every crumb of bias.

What a ridiculous strawman. I didn't once mention myself.

You "detest" the idea that people have unconscious biases. That must include you, as part of "everyone". Therefore you are doing what the video describes.

Unless you accept the idea is true but detest that truth.
Or is it that you accept you have biases like anyone else and you are making an abstract point that some other people are different. Is that it?

GrahamH wrote:
Or is it that you accept you have biases like anyone else and you are making an abstract point that some other people are different. Is that it?

I have biases against shitheads who assume their conclusions in order to try to make a point. I thought I just had to deal with god-botherers, but that is apparently not the case.

Cito di Pense wrote:

GrahamH wrote:
Or is it that you accept you have biases like anyone else and you are making an abstract point that some other people are different. Is that it?

I have biases against shitheads who assume their conclusions in order to try to make a point. I thought I just had to deal with god-botherers, but that is apparently not the case.

That would be an example of conscious bias - well done

Cito di Pense wrote:

GrahamH wrote:

Cito di Pense wrote:I'll happily talk about what I'm steeped in. I'll have a look at any bias that's not, well, unconscious, because I ain't lookin' for the invisible man. So, when you want to illustrate a bias, come with something better than that.

You'll have a look at those aspect of yourself that you already know about? Well good for you. That won't take long will it?

Well, it looks like racism is the CMBR of society, then. Glad to know the Truth, and it seems pointless to deny it, and in fact, I don't.

I'm just asking how anyone knows it affects me without assuming it affects me. What a powerful conclusion that is, to assume your conclusion. Works on god-botherers, though. Easy pickings.

Take that up with the psychologists that study such biases. It seems to be very common. It's a reasonable default to assume people have common biases. You could explore your own biases if you were inclined to.

You might be exceptional in this regard, but I'm not going to assume so without evidence.

Teague wrote:

Cito di Pense wrote:

GrahamH wrote:
Or is it that you accept you have biases like anyone else and you are making an abstract point that some other people are different. Is that it?

I have biases against shitheads who assume their conclusions in order to try to make a point. I thought I just had to deal with god-botherers, but that is apparently not the case.

That would be an example of conscious bias - well done

Well, great. The important thing is not to have unconscious bias. I can adjust for conscious bias, and be polite, but you know, there's nobody to enforce whether I am or not. Nobody can say that when I'm not polite, it's a result of unconscious bias.

Maybe they can, but do you think I give a fuck?