Iron, like a Lion in Zion.

campermon wrote:

Strontium Dog wrote:

campermon wrote:

Strontium Dog wrote:So Jericho is the real villain of the piece, as he's killed 12 times as many lions as this poor dentist fellow.

'Jericho' is a lion.

Relevance?

Has he killed a dozen times as many lions as the dentist or hasn't he?

'Jericho' is not a moral agent.

The dentist is.

HTHs

So your problem isn't with lions being killed, rather it's a moral judgement against humans doing so?

Strontium Dog wrote:

campermon wrote:

Strontium Dog wrote:

campermon wrote:

'Jericho' is a lion.

Relevance?

Has he killed a dozen times as many lions as the dentist or hasn't he?

'Jericho' is not a moral agent.

The dentist is.

HTHs

So your problem isn't with lions being killed, rather it's a moral judgement against humans doing so?

I was merely pointing out your anthropomorphism.

Just posting here to remind me to not get into a fight about stupid fucking people coming here with their guns to kill our wildlife. (And stupid fucking presidents who kill lions to eat them).

If it makes you feel better, the lions people shoot in SA are captive-bred for the bullet. Your wild populations are safe from Minnesotan dentists!

Strontium Dog wrote:Some of us take a stand against a moth-eaten lion shot in Zimbabwe.
Some of us take a stand against the 8 billion animals killed in the UK for food every year.

And some of us can't tell one discussion topic from another.

CarlPierce wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

CarlPierce wrote:

Mike_L wrote:
Yep. Palmer's deed was altogether vile and selfish, but the over-the-top response of some of his detractors is in the realms of comedy farce.

Your wrong Mike it is time we took a stand over the destruction of the planets wildlife - this scum is just an example. The publicity will prevent other sadist hunters.

Unless taking a stand consists of making absurd and inaccurate accusations, and terrorizing people with death threats... I don't really understand how this represents 'taking a stand'.

This publicity is making hunters as popular as a pedophile who posts pictures of the little girls he has raped . Driving public opinion is the way to demonstrate to policy makers that it is time to stop sadistic scum murdering their way across the planet. Banning 'trophy' import would be a nice start. I don't see fox hunting legalisation after this wave of public power. Well done anyone who wants it to stop and shame on apologists for needless wanton cruelty (see above).

Not sure as it will have that effect, but if it does have an impact on fox-hunting legislation, I will be happy in my error!

Strontium Dog wrote:

Tenacious Tubbs wrote:Whilst arguments can (and are) made against faming animals for food, I think comparing that to the illegal poaching of a protected animal, part of a comparatively much rarer (borderline endangered) species, and merely for the enjoyment of the act of killing, is more than a bit facile.

Oh, I wasn't making any comparison. 8 billion deaths versus 1 death is simply incomparable. Suffice it to say that one dead cat barely registers on my give-a-fuck-ometer. What can I say, I'm a rationalist.

Compared to the trillions of organisms you and everyone else kills on a daily basis, what's a cow per person every year?

Yeah, it's a stupid argument any which way you slice it.

Tenacious Tubbs wrote:

Strontium Dog wrote:If you want to compare children with animals while erecting a feeble straw man and pretend you're being rational, don't let me stop you.

I'm not comparing children with animals. I'm comparing children with children. Just like you were comparing animals with animals in your post.

The only thing you're doing irrational is expecting a rational response from SD on this topic.

Frankly, it's OT and should be removed - we have this every time that some topic of animal cruelty comes up.

I'm not here to indulge your, and society's, irrational double standards.

Either killing non-endangered animals is okay, or it isn't. No middle ground.

Strontium Dog wrote:I'm not here to indulge your, and society's, irrational double standards.

Either killing non-endangered animals is okay, or it isn't. No middle ground.

Of course there is a middle ground. There's always a middle ground. Civilization rely's heavily on the middle ground.

There is no middle round between guilty and innocent. There is no middle ground between true or false. There is no middle ground between rape and consensual sex. This is binary. It's okay, or it isn't. There are no rational grounds for the argument "it's okay to kill pigs, cows and chickens, but it's not okay to kill cats, dogs and foxes". Not even if you give the cat a name.

Strontium Dog wrote:There is no middle round between guilty and innocent. There is no middle ground between true or false. There is no middle ground between rape and consensual sex. This is binary. It's okay, or it isn't. There are no rational grounds for the argument "it's okay to kill pigs, cows and chickens, but it's not okay to kill cats, dogs and foxes". Not even if you give the cat a name.

I know you like to think of things in these simplistic terms but it's not so black and white. There are circumstances where it is not okay to kill pigs, cows and chickens and there are circumstances when it's okay to kill cats, dogs and foxes; even if the cat has a name.

Strontium Dog wrote:There is no middle round between guilty and innocent. There is no middle ground between true or false. There is no middle ground between rape and consensual sex. This is binary. It's okay, or it isn't. There are no rational grounds for the argument "it's okay to kill pigs, cows and chickens, but it's not okay to kill cats, dogs and foxes". Not even if you give the cat a name.

There is a pretty obvious rational argument for killing pigs, cows and chickens, and not killing cats and dogs. Not sure how fox ended up in the no kill list. Cats and dogs are considered pets in most western countries and pigs, cows and chickens are considered food. We, as a society, have developed a special bond with cats and dogs that we have not developed with cows, pigs and chickens. Although if someone does develop a bond with a pig, as does happen, most would frown on killing that pig.

Briton wrote:I know you like to think of things in these simplistic terms but it's not so black and white. There are circumstances where it is not okay to kill pigs, cows and chickens and there are circumstances when it's okay to kill cats, dogs and foxes; even if the cat has a name.

Don't split hairs please. You know I am talking in the general sense. I'm not advocating that it would be okay to march over to your elderly neighbour's house and execute her tabby on the patio.

If hunting wild deer is okay, then hunting wild lions is okay. If farming pigs is okay, then farming lions is okay. Arguments otherwise are thoroughly specious and typically necessitate the insertion of irrationalities like emotion.

Strontium Dog wrote:

Briton wrote:I know you like to think of things in these simplistic terms but it's not so black and white. There are circumstances where it is not okay to kill pigs, cows and chickens and there are circumstances when it's okay to kill cats, dogs and foxes; even if the cat has a name.

Don't split hairs please. You know I am talking in the general sense. I'm not advocating that it would be okay to march over to your elderly neighbour's house and execute her tabby on the patio.

If hunting wild deer is okay, then hunting wild lions is okay. If farming pigs is okay, then farming lions is okay. Arguments otherwise are thoroughly specious and typically necessitate the insertion of irrationalities like emotion.

Oh I know. Those pesky emotions. But I would agree, hunting wild lions is no different than hunting wild deer as long as reasonable rules are in place to ensure a healthy population. And farming lions is not much different than farming pigs to me. I would hope that they are both treated humanely, but beyond that I have no problem with it. Unfortunately, from what I have seen in several videos on the subject the lions do not seem to be treated humanely.

But this is my personal opinion, and as with many hunting and culinary traditions, it can be very different from one culture to the next. I would never hunt a domestic dog, or farm dogs for food, but other cultures have. I wouldn't bat an eye at a nice juicy steak, but in India I am given too believe it is frowned on. I love bacon despite the obvious threat to my arteries, but I believe in many middle eastern countries, this isn't a staple.

Strontium Dog wrote:

Briton wrote:I know you like to think of things in these simplistic terms but it's not so black and white. There are circumstances where it is not okay to kill pigs, cows and chickens and there are circumstances when it's okay to kill cats, dogs and foxes; even if the cat has a name.

Don't split hairs please. You know I am talking in the general sense. I'm not advocating that it would be okay to march over to your elderly neighbour's house and execute her tabby on the patio.

If hunting wild deer is okay, then hunting wild lions is okay. If farming pigs is okay, then farming lions is okay. Arguments otherwise are thoroughly specious and typically necessitate the insertion of irrationalities like emotion.

Your simplistic assertion that 'there is no middle ground' when it comes to killing animals is incorrect IMO. I don't think farming pigs so that they can be killed for the fun of it is okay. I see that as different from farming and killing (in a regulated and humane way) for meat and dairy products. True it would be hypocritical to argue against farming lions for their meat.
It would also be okay (to most people) for your elderly neighbour's tabby to be killed if it was to relieve suffering; to burn it for entertainment? No.

Strontium Dog wrote:If farming pigs is okay, then farming lions is okay.

I agree.

But pig farms aren't giving people who want a plate of spare ribs the opportunity to incompetently shoot a pig multiple times before the pig farmer finally has to put the poor thing out of it's misery.

I wish hunting guides were more fastidious about putting down the animal as soon as the customer has shot and injured them.

Alright so you probably know how little I think of conspicuous consumption and the like but this doesn't strike me as massively morally worse than raising animals for slaughter in general ... which admittedly may well be a bad thing.

I personally mean to quit meat eventually though that's not going to be easy given my circumstances. One of the reasons I got interesting in raising fungus was because I see it as a highly viable future source of a meat alternative. We don't have anything like Quorn here though, and it's very expensive to get it overseas. Unfortunately, the mushrooms I am growing / planning to grow are not a realistic meat alternative in the way that mycoprotein is. It's nice to have some hands-on knowledge of such things though.

Also fuck Quorn for their anti-GMO stance.